<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 28 2006, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro's points have been a bad joke since he started posting. Nothing is worse than convincing some of a thing that isn't even close to reality. Nitro is either using hypothetical things for an argument like Kobe, Mcgrady, Lebron, and whoever will stop Dirk. WTF is that? That is a plain joke. I could understand someone saying Dirk is a great player but Kobe has been outstanding this year. At least you decide who you are in favor of. I'll admit I hate Kobe if you admit you hate Dirk. There are a lot of Dirk haters out there.</div>Hmmm, you're the only one thinking my points are a bad joke. Even though many people disagree with me on my points (although they end up agreeing with me or start to see my points), they don't act all immature and then start trying to say I am idioctic, as they know my points are very valid. You are an extremely biased Mavs fan, so you take my points on Dirk, twist them, and say I'm a Dirk hate,r which i am not. But when I am trying to make an arguement that he doesn't deserve it more than Kobe or Nash, I have to bring those things up. Using hypothetical arguements? How so? It is a fact that Dirk has problems with people who are faster than him and long enough to ge tin his face when he goes up for shot. Big athletic swingmans fit that mold, and as long as they are decent defender, can hold Dirk to below average night. I never named any names, just used T-Mac and Marion as examples of the players I am talking about and how they fit the mold. I never said Bron or Kobe could stop Dirk, as they can't (Bron isn't good enough defensively and Kobe is too small).I am not a Kobe nor Dirk hater. It is funny, I have been called both this week by homers who can't see reality outside of their home team. I said Dirk is having great year but doesn't deserve to be in top 3, and Waqas brought up his defense being better than Kobe's (and if you believe that, just look at Kobe's defensive accomplishments and accolades) and many ridiculous arguements. So, i fired back, and now am being called a Dirk hater. How cute....
Maybe it's because you think you know everything about the NBA. You act like your opinions are fact. Dirk does struggle with certain players but i think it has more to do with speed than height or length. Bowen wouldn't give Dirk any space and was almost fouling Dirk all the time. Bigger players are forced to give Dirk some room since they don't have the quickness it is needed to recover if Dirk decides to drive. There is no actual Dirk stopper but Dirk is a streaky player so it might look like he is being stopped but in reality Dirk can't shoot some nights.
Nitro, I called you a hater because you blamed Odom's horrible play on Kobe. Odom now has shown he can play even when kobe's taking 27fga's. Secondly Kobe's teamates and dirk's teamates are as bad as eachother?Wow :no1:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 28 2006, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro's points have been a bad joke since he started posting. Nothing is worse than convincing some of a thing that isn't even close to reality. Nitro is either using hypothetical things for an argument like Kobe, Mcgrady, Lebron, and whoever will stop Dirk. WTF is that? That is a plain joke. I could understand someone saying Dirk is a great player but Kobe has been outstanding this year. At least you decide who you are in favor of. I'll admit I hate Kobe if you admit you hate Dirk. There are a lot of Dirk haters out there.</div>You mean like when you said Dirk's teammates are about as bad as Kobe's teammates? Also, Nitro has made it apparent that he isn't a Dirk hater, and that he does believe Dirk is having a great season, but he just believes that Kobe is having a better season and is more deserving of the award than Dirk is... and that is exactly what you're saying you want in your post.I don't hate Dirk at all... I am more of a Kobe hater, but I respect the man's game and I'll be the first one to give him props even if I "hate" on him. Why? Because even if I don't like the man, I respect the game of basketball, and a lot of things that he has accomplished.I'm not disagreeing with you. I believe Dirk is more deserving of the MVP award than Kobe is, but the reasoning that I'm reading from you and Waqas are completely funny and ridiculous that I just had to point out how ludicrous those assertions were.Now, unless there are some more rational reasons to support the argument that Dirk is more deserving, I believe this discussion should be over.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe it's because you think you know everything about the NBA. You act like your opinions are fact. Dirk does struggle with certain players but i think it has more to do with speed than height or length. Bowen wouldn't give Dirk any space and was almost fouling Dirk all the time. Bigger players are forced to give Dirk some room since they don't have the quickness it is needed to recover if Dirk decides to drive. There is no actual Dirk stopper but Dirk is a streaky player so it might look like he is being stopped but in reality Dirk can't shoot some nights.</div>If you want to make a good arguement, you have to be confident in yourself. Of course I am going to act like my opiniosn are fact if I want to beat someone in a debate. I am flexible, and if you would actually make a good point, maybe a view or 2 of mine would change.Speed only stops Dirk's driving skills. Getting a hand in his face will stop his shooting. Biggest reason Dirk is such a good shooter is because he can shoot over everyone in NBA because of his size and length. Put a Shawn Marion on him and he will have trouble getting past Marion, getting enough space to get off free shot, and actually getting shot up.And T-Mac/Marion stopped Dirk for what, a combined 11 or so games in playoffs last year?
Ridiculous is calling Mcgrady and Marion as the "Dirk stopper". Yes they have a better chance on Dirk than normal player but at the same time Dirk could post them up and score that way as well. Nitro makes it sound like there is an easy formula to stop Dirk and other teams aren't using it which isn't true. Teams have thrown all types of players on Dirk and they haven't found an easy answer. The same could be said of Kobe. The generalization and hypothetical arguments are weak and that is what I'm trying to say. Do I have to defend Kobe the same way to prove my point? Maybe Dirk isn't the mvp but have better arguments than Dirk can get shutdown by any athletic big man and maybe Lebron, Kobe, Mcgrady, and could shutdown Dirk therefore Kobe is MVP. BTW you did say something like that Nitro. It is in this thread if you want me to look it up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 29 2006, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ridiculous is calling Mcgrady and Marion as the "Dirk stopper". Yes they have a better chance on Dirk than normal player but at the same time Dirk could post them up and score that way as well. Nitro makes it sound like there is an easy formula to stop Dirk and other teams aren't using it which isn't true. Teams have thrown all types of players on Dirk and they haven't found an easy answer. The same could be said of Kobe. The generalization and hypothetical arguments are weak and that is what I'm trying to say. Do I have to defend Kobe the same way to prove my point? Maybe Dirk isn't the mvp but have better arguments than Dirk can get shutdown by any athletic big man and maybe Lebron, Kobe, Mcgrady, and could shutdown Dirk therefore Kobe is MVP. BTW you did say something like that Nitro. It is in this thread if you want me to look it up.</div>I am not calling them the Dirk stopper, I am calling the type of player they are as the best solution, and it is a proven formula. You can't put a weak defender with their body features on Dirk, you have to put a solid defender with that kind of body on Dirk. There are very few of them in the league, but they are there. I never once said Kobe is MVP. I said Nash is the MVP, and have said that a million times. Kobe is my #2 pick. And I also never said Kobe is unstoppable (although he is the closest thing to unstoppable in league). Look at my last post, I said Kobe and Bron couldn't guard Dirk effectively. Look whatever you want up. What I am saying in this post is what I have said over and over again, you just aren't listening, just quick to jump on someone who says anything critical of Dirk and call them a hater. I'm done with this topic, do what you want on your little scavenger hunt, mavsfan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 28 2006, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ridiculous is calling Mcgrady and Marion as the "Dirk stopper". Yes they have a better chance on Dirk than normal player but at the same time Dirk could post them up and score that way as well. Nitro makes it sound like there is an easy formula to stop Dirk and other teams aren't using it which isn't true. Teams have thrown all types of players on Dirk and they haven't found an easy answer. The same could be said of Kobe. The generalization and hypothetical arguments are weak and that is what I'm trying to say. Do I have to defend Kobe the same way to prove my point? Maybe Dirk isn't the mvp but have better arguments than Dirk can get shutdown by any athletic big man and maybe Lebron, Kobe, Mcgrady, and could shutdown Dirk therefore Kobe is MVP. BTW you did say something like that Nitro. It is in this thread if you want me to look it up.</div>Nitro did not call Marion or McGrady the "Dirk stoppers," he simply gave a description of the type of player that has the most success in slowing Dirk down, and both Marion and McGrady fit the description. I honestly don't see what is ridiculous about that at all. Obviously, Dirk is a superstar, and superstar players can never be stopped... they can only be slowed down. That is one of the reasons why they are superstars.Now, what is ridiculous is the way Maverick fans are giving off the impression that Dirk is playing with trash, when that is completely false. The Mavericks have more overall team depth and talent than the Suns or the Lakers when you take Dirk, Nash and Kobe out of the equation. If you can't see that, then something is clouding your judgement.I believe that Dirk should be second in the MVP race at this point, but if I were reading this argument without formulating my own opinion prior to reading it through, I would have to side with Nitro because he has made more logical and rational points to support his argument.
People would call me a homer if I said Howard was better than Marion. If Dallas doesn't have a lot of talent to win the championship than why is it so ridiculous to call Dirk the MVP? They are overachieving as many people think so doesn't Dirk deserve the credit for that? Dallas>Phoenix and Dallas>>>Lakers so that to me is big deal on who gets the MVP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 28 2006, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>People would call me a homer if I said Howard was better than Marion. If Dallas doesn't have a lot of talent to win the championship than why is it so ridiculous to call Dirk the MVP? They are overachieving as many people think so doesn't Dirk deserve the credit for that? Dallas>Phoenix and Dallas>>>Lakers so that to me is big deal on who gets the MVP.</div>Nobody has said Dallas doesn't have the talent to win the championship. You and Waqas have been making statements that show you believe Dirk pretty much has garbage players around him, which is simply not true. Look at the Dallas roster, then look at the Lakers' roster, and tell me which one is better, excluding Dirk and Kobe. Obviously Dallas has the better roster. Now, compare Dallas' roster with PHX's roster (excluding Dirk, Nash and Amare), and Dallas still has the better roster.Now, I know the following two arguments will come up to dispute the Dallas/PHX roster comparions:1. Marion is a better second option for Nash than anybody on Dallas if for Dirk. While that is true, you can't claim that PHX's roster is better because their second option is better than Dallas' second option. If that is a criteria, then you'd have to say that New Jersey, Philadelphia, Cleveland (w/ Hughes), etc., have a better roster than Dallas because their second option is arguably better than Dallas' second option.2. PHX has players like Diaw, Eddie House, Raja Bell, etc. Now, with the exception of Bell, every other player on PHX roster (including Marion) are having career years. Marion is the only player who you can make the case that his career year doesn't have much to do with Nash. The fact of the matter remains that Diaw, House, etc. are all having career years because of Nash. You might counter that argument by claiming that their success is more a byproduct of PHX's system than Nash's play... but, then you have to say that Nash is the reason that system is so successful, which then brings you back to the point that Nash is the reason they are playing at such a high level.Now, you also use the theory that "Dallas > Phoenix" and "Dallas > LA Lakers." Now, if we're using that system to prove points, you could make a case that Chauncey Billups or Tim Duncan deserve the MVP award more than Dirk because both their teams have better records than the Mavericks do.And just for fun, I dug up these stats from the playoffs last year when the Mavericks played Houston and Phoenix.In the series against Houston, Dirk shot 45-128 throughout the series, which is 35.1%, while averaging 21.3 points per game.In the series against Phoenix, Dirk was much, much better, shooting 58-128, which is 45%, while averaging 26.5 points per game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>They are overachieving as many people think so doesn't Dirk deserve the credit for that? Dallas>Phoenix and Dallas>>>Lakers so that to me is big deal on who gets the MVP.</div>Dirk also has a better supporting cast. If you put Dirk on the Lakers they are a worse team then they are now. Same with Phoenix.Im sure Kobe would die to play with Terry,Diop,Howard,Daniels,Van Horn, Stackhouse,Harris ect ect.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mavsfan1000 @ Mar 29 2006, 03:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I disagree but there is no proof to go either way on it. It is just opinions at this point.</div>You can pretty much say the same for every debate.
Yeah but most opinions have some proof or fact to back it up. This doesn't. It would be tough for Kobe to go 54-16 in place of Dirk with the mavs. The chemistry would not be the same. Those that say Kobe is a good passer are in denial. This is his weakest part of his game. Who knows if Kobe can be the man on the mavs while them continuing to succeed. That is why I disagree with the part Kobe will make the mavs better over Dirk.
I think the Mavs wouldn't be as good with Kobe, but I also think that Lakers wouldn't be as good with Dirk. I don't think interchanging them proves anything in this case.
Dirk's teamates are better than Kobe's. Were the 2nd youngest team in the nba, there is no comparing.That doesn't mean each teams would be better if they swapped, far from it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ Mar 29 2006, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dirk's teamates are better than Kobe's. Were the 2nd youngest team in the nba, there is no comparing.That doesn't mean each teams would be better if they swapped, far from it.</div>
Yeah, but ANYBODY would know that Dirk has more trust in his teammates than anybody else on the team. He'll always give up the ball to other guys to let them score, as well.
Dirk is not a playmaker on passing but he does give it up for someone to take off the dribble for a score. Those don't count as assist but it is team ball. Since these teams are totally different talent wise the comparisons are invalid. Who knows if Kobe would play more team ball if he had better players and who knows how Dirk would change his game if not given quality players? Right now with Howard, Harris, and Griffin out the teams are close to equal talent wise and Dirk's team has gone 10-6.
