It wasn't the points factor i was talking about, i was amazed at the field goal difference. In two years straight he's shot 50% from the field, before arriving in arizona he never shot 50% from the field.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 8 2006, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry, but only someone that doesn't know what they are watching for says that it is impossible to judge for who makes their teamates better. There are certain players you can watch and say "do you see how that team around them plays when he is on the court." Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Shaq are just a few in the league that have this ability. Other players you can watch and say "that guy gets stats, but the team really doesn't play well with him out there on the court, compared to when he is on the bench" like Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Zach Randolph to name just a couple. People can say that the system Nash is in inflates his and other players numbers all you want. The fact is no other point guard in the league could run this system even close to as well as Steve Nash runs the system. A question for though, could it be Nash that makes this system great, instead of the system that makes Nash great?</div> I said in extreme cases you can tell, I mentioned Jerry Stackhouse...But in general it's not always so obvious.
The thing is, no player has won the MVP award for a .500 team since the early 80s. Kobe would have never won it simply because his team this year was barely over .500.Looking back however, LeBron led his team to 54 wins. Without LeBron, they win 25 games... If they are lucky. Without Steve Nash, the Suns win 40 games. Even if you judge the MVP by categories, Steve Nash never gets it.Best Player: Kobe BryantBest Player on Elite Team: Dirk NowitzkiBest Player on Good Team: LeBron JamesBest Statistical Player on Good Team: LeBronPlayer who's loss would result in fewest wins for playoff team: Kobe BryantLooking back, yes Steve Nash was incredibly valuable to the Suns. Yes he means everything to them. However, LeBron means more to the Cavs. Did you see them this year? Marshall couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Damon Jones barely played... The guy had a near identical team to last year, and led them to 54 wins! That's incredible! Yes Nash might have been more valuable than Dirk, perhaps more valuable than Kobe, but no way was he more valuable than LeBronLeBron has a worse team, comparable winsMuch better statsBetter late game player I used to argue Steve Nash would get it, but after watching LeBron religiously the past few months, I've realized how much he does for Cleveland
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ Jun 8 2006, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Looking back, yes Steve Nash was incredibly valuable to the Suns. Yes he means everything to them. However, LeBron means more to the Cavs. Did you see them this year? Marshall couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Damon Jones barely played... The guy had a near identical team to last year, and led them to 54 wins! That's incredible! Yes Nash might have been more valuable than Dirk, perhaps more valuable than Kobe, but no way was he more valuable than LeBronLeBron has a worse team, comparable winsMuch better statsBetter late game player </div>I think you need to go back and check some things. First off, the Cavaliers won 50 games and lost 32 games, they did not win 54 games. I know a 4 game difference between the Cavaliers number of wins and the Suns number of wins isn't much, but they are different.Next fact, is that Lebron James had much better basketball players on his team than Steve Nash had on his. Minus Shawn Marion, did you really think anyone else on this team was a stud before this season? Most people certainly didn't. No one thought Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Eddie House, James Jones, and Leandro Barbosa was good players. Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Dwight Gooden, Damon Jones, and Donyell Marshall are all much better players than the players the Suns had. Most of these guys were good players in other places. Just because the players this year didn't quite pan out for the Cavaliers, and they didn't play overly well, doesn't mean that the team is worse. That being said, as i said in an earlier post, i did think that Lebron James should have won the MVP award, but i can see where the voters are coming from in picking Steve Nash as MVP this season.
A) I made a mistake on that. I meant to put the Cavs winning 50 game, but I guess I'm just tired! If you actually think the Cavs were better, I'll PM Balla in request for a ban. Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, and Donyell did nothing this year. Hughes played in 36 games, and Marshall and Jones struggled to shoot 40% in a game. If three of your bests players play horribly night in and out, or don't play at all, your team is worse. The Suns had a better starting lineup, better depth, and a better coach. Cleveland did not have a great team at all this year, and if you think Phoenix was better, then I can't even argue with you. Something is warped in your mind.
The cavs are 2-0 without lebron :happy0144: Secondly, the question is when was the criteria for "who makes their teamates better" added?and lebron's teamates are trash, no-one should even bring them up as being good.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ Jun 8 2006, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>A) I made a mistake on that. I meant to put the Cavs winning 50 game, but I guess I'm just tired! If you actually think the Cavs were better, I'll PM Balla in request for a ban. Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, and Donyell did nothing this year. Hughes played in 36 games, and Marshall and Jones struggled to shoot 40% in a game. If three of your bests players play horribly night in and out, or don't play at all, your team is worse. The Suns had a better starting lineup, better depth, and a better coach. Cleveland did not have a great team at all this year, and if you think Phoenix was better, then I can't even argue with you. Something is warped in your mind.</div>Since you want to say i have a warped mind, lets go ahead and start going over some things, and see who has the warped mind. Your saying that the players around Nash are completely better than the players around Lebron James, which i think is completely stupid. If the players around Nash are so much better, why did none of them have much success before this season? The players around Lebron James played well in other cities with other teams, and not play well with Lebron James in Cleveland? Lets look at the main players around Nash that played this season, compared to the main players around Lebron James that played this season, and look at what each team had and didn't have. And since you want to use shooting percentage's and other such things, i will use the same thing against you. What i am mainly looking at is career's to see who has the better players around them.First we will start by looking at Lebron James team, and the most frequent lineup he played in, followed by the main bench players. Here are some career stats and numbers.Zydrunas Ilgauskas- 15 ppg, 47.6%fgp, 7.7rpg, 1.9 bpg, 1.2 apgDwight Gooden- 12.3 ppg, 47.5fgp, 7.7rpg, 1.2apg,D. Marshall- 12.1 ppg, 43.7 fgp, 7.2 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1bpg.E. Snow- 7.3 ppg, 42.7 fgp, 5.2 apg, 2.6 spg, 2 rbgD. Jones- 6.8ppg, 40.9 fgp, 3.2 apg, 1.6 rpg, .4 spg.Now lets look at Nash's teamates and how they have done for their careers. Here are their career stats.S. Marion- 18.7 ppg, 47.3 fgp, 11rpg, 1.5 spg, 1.5 bpg, and 1.5 apg.B. Diaw-7.8 ppg, 48.8 fgp, 4.8 rbg, 3.7 apg, .7 spg, .6 bpg.R. Bell- 8.8 ppg, 43.9 fgp, 2.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, .7 spg, .1 bpg.J. Jones- 6.9 ppg, 40.9 fgp, 2.8 rpg, .7 apg, .4 spg, .7 bpg.L. Barbosa- 9.1 ppg, 46.8 fgp, 2.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, .8 spg, .1 bpg.The players around Lebron James career wise, have been just as good, if not better than the players around Steve Nash. The players around James are also veterans, he didn't have to help teach them how to play they already knew how to play well. Steve Nash's team was young and had to learn alot of how to play this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 8 2006, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since you want to say i have a warped mind, lets go ahead and start going over some things, and see who has the warped mind. Your saying that the players around Nash are completely better than the players around Lebron James, which i think is completely stupid. If the players around Nash are so much better, why did none of them have much success before this season? The players around Lebron James played well in other cities with other teams, and not play well with Lebron James in Cleveland? Lets look at the main players around Nash that played this season, compared to the main players around Lebron James that played this season, and look at what each team had and didn't have. And since you want to use shooting percentage's and other such things, i will use the same thing against you. What i am mainly looking at is career's to see who has the better players around them.First we will start by looking at Lebron James team, and the most frequent lineup he played in, followed by the main bench players. Here are some career stats and numbers.Zydrunas Ilgauskas- 15 ppg, 47.6%fgp, 7.7rpg, 1.9 bpg, 1.2 apgDwight Gooden- 12.3 ppg, 47.5fgp, 7.7rpg, 1.2apg,D. Marshall- 12.1 ppg, 43.7 fgp, 7.2 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1bpg.E. Snow- 7.3 ppg, 42.7 fgp, 5.2 apg, 2.6 spg, 2 rbgD. Jones- 6.8ppg, 40.9 fgp, 3.2 apg, 1.6 rpg, .4 spg.Now lets look at Nash's teamates and how they have done for their careers. Here are their career stats.S. Marion- 18.7 ppg, 47.3 fgp, 11rpg, 1.5 spg, 1.5 bpg, and 1.5 apg.B. Diaw-7.8 ppg, 48.8 fgp, 4.8 rbg, 3.7 apg, .7 spg, .6 bpg.R. Bell- 8.8 ppg, 43.9 fgp, 2.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, .7 spg, .1 bpg.J. Jones- 6.9 ppg, 40.9 fgp, 2.8 rpg, .7 apg, .4 spg, .7 bpg.L. Barbosa- 9.1 ppg, 46.8 fgp, 2.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, .8 spg, .1 bpg.The players around Lebron James career wise, have been just as good, if not better than the players around Steve Nash. The players around James are also veterans, he didn't have to help teach them how to play they already knew how to play well. Steve Nash's team was young and had to learn alot of how to play this year.</div>In all honesty, Phoenix just gave all there players minutes which is why there playing so well. Raja Bell, a nobody in Utah last season, comes to Phoenix and instantly receives credit. Raja is getting 10 more minutes of playing time in Phoenix then in Utah. He is averaging the same amount of rebounds he got in Utah, has 1 more assist per game in Phoenix and is averaging slightly more then 1 point more per game in Phoenix then he did in Utah.Eddie House, another player who gets credit for playing the Phoenix system. He averaged 9 ppg this season, while getting more minutes in the previous season.When he got 23 minutes per game in Charlotte he averaged 11 points on 45 percent shooting. Could the improvement just be that he got more playing time?Leandro Barbosa, no one ever even knew he was on there roster since 2003. Another player credited for playing under Steve Nash, and improving as a player also. He got 10 more minutes of playing time then last season, grabbed the same amount of rebounds and assists and averaged 6 more points. With 10 more minutes it isn’t to hard to get 3 field goals is it? Not saying Nash has nothing to do with it but in reality most of these players just got playing time. Phoenix probably never knew they would turn out this well as no one did but the injury to Amare really let them prove themselves.
My opinion on the matter, you can't have a layout or format on the MVP voting. I mean if that was the case Shaq would have more than 1, trust me. And MJ would have about 10, if you go by "the best player in the league" every year.Last year really was a toss up between Nash and Shaq, but you could make as strong a case for both last year. I mean Shaq came to town and took that team to glory really, and ended up 1 game away from the Finals (in which he is playing in now). And Nash brought Phoenix it's best season (regular season, record-wise) in franchise history and simply allowed Amare to flourish. He makes everyone around him better.But you can't just say, "the MVP has to be the best player in the league." Like I said, if that was the case MJ would have about 10 and Shaq would have probably 5-6. The bottom line, Steve Nash makes everyone around him better and he is unbelievably valuable to Phoenix. Steve Nash is probably going to earn Tim Thomas a decent contract this summer (then we know the rest, he'll almost disappear until his contract expires again). He made Steven Hunter look pretty good as well, how's he doing in Philly? Not half as good in my opinion, I don't care what the stat sheet says.Although I do believe Kobe probably should have won it this year, Steve Nash deserved it just as much as him, even though Kobe is the best individual player.
1999-2000- Shaq200-2001 - AI2001-2002- Duncan2002-2003- Duncan2003-2994- KGNow those are the last 5 mvp's, when people were voting for them did anyone mention "oh, KG makes his teamates better than Player X". No, they said he was the best basketball player in that season. Period.And do any of those guys directly make their teamates better like Nash does? These guys mere impact made their teamates better.
It never was the best basketball player, it was the player that you would most like to have on your team, to help you in all sorts of different things. This may not have been how they saw it before but think about the name. Steve Nash helping out his teammates in so many ways and still being able to do his thing makes him a great basketball player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jun 9 2006, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It never was the best basketball player, it was the player that you would most like to have on your team, to help you in all sorts of different things. This may not have been how they saw it before but think about the name. Steve Nash helping out his teammates in so many ways and still being able to do his thing makes him a great basketball player.</div>Bingo
