<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">This team should never have a hard time scoring..pre Jalen Rose. They werent scoring alot no. Thats partially Larry's system and partially the fact that it was essentially a 2 on 5 on offence. 2 Knicks would do some sort of a pick and role while the other 3 stood there with their hands on their knees. I would contend that the Knicks lack of scoring opportunities isnt due to a lack of scorers, but becuase to many of the current scorers on the team need the ball in their hands to be of any use at all on the offensive end.</div> No, that’s not true at all. The Knicks don’t run that many pick and rolls, actually. They usually just try to force a pass down low to Eddy Curry and hope he scores. Marbury was a great asset to the offense last year. He used to break down the defense and create opportunities for everyone. He got to the line and got us easy buckets like layups. It’s partially Larry Brown’s fault? That’s pretty much all of his fault. Do you think it’s a coincidence Detroit became a much better offensive team once he left? The Knicks were actually a pretty solid offensive team last year before Larry Brown came. The Knicks barely run any plays, and the plays they do run aren’t suitable for this team. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">not really. I'd say the biggest problem i have with larry isnt the losses, its the way the teams loosing. Its the number of points you guys are getting hammered by and the slow starts/sloppy endings to quarters/games. 3-6 wins isnt all that bad, but no its not significant really. I think with a new coach more suited to the style you'd get maybe 5 more wins but the team would peform more consistently, and the losses would be much much closer.</div> The team plays so sloppy because of Larry Brown. You said Brown is doing a bad enough job to get fired, but the best the Knicks would have is five more wins. That means the Knicks would be only five games shy of their maximum potential. That really isn’t that bad at all. Saying the blowouts would be closer doesn’t really hold much water, what matters is winning and losing. Also, I said Marbury and Curry are 15-21 playing together. Assuming they stay healthy all season and if another coach gave them five more wins they would be around .500. That means you would be wrong for saying another coach “couldn’t get them anywhere near .500,” no? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> True. Althought injuries are part of every teams season you do have to take them into account. Offtopic: at times i look at Curry and think he's gunna be something, but then right afterwards i ask if i'd trade a possible #1 pick for him. Why Why didnt he try to protect that pick. </div> Injuries are without a doubt a part of every team. However, they can affect a team’s record. A record doesn’t necessarily reflect a good a team is. Take the Rockets for example. They’re below .500 due to injuries, but does it mean they’re a .500 team? He thought the team would make the playoffs, so he didn’t protect the pick. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not totally sure Larry discourages the fast break. The team doesnt do it as much as others do true...but also you have to remember that with the Knicks high opponent fg% and the Knicks low rebounding #'s the opportunities for fast breaks are significanly less than those other running teams. That said...I do agree LB should push the ball more than he is, as much as possible. Larry's to used to playing the halfcourt grinding type of game, and this team just isnt cut out for that.</div> The only time the Knicks run with the ball is to push it up half court and call timeout. Brown just doesn’t like running on the break. The same thing went for when he played with the Pistons despite the fact everyone on their starting five could. Yes, the Knicks opponents shoot a high percentage, but didn’t the Suns’ opponents do the same thing? And what do you mean the Knicks have low rebounding numbers? If you watch their games you would notice that’s been one of their bright spots. The Knicks rank ninth in the NBA in rebounds per game, 28th in opponents rebounds allowed, and third in the league in rebounding difference. Where did you get the idea they have low rebounding numbers? Pretty much everyone on their roster is quick and athletic enough to run the floor and that should be taken advantage of. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Ya i hear ya. its sort of the chicken or the egg. What came first, the players being lazy and having a lack of effort or the hit to their confidence they took from Larry moving them around? I think larry's frequent and drastic lineup changes are horrible...i'm not really sure what he's doing alot of the time actually. But even with the lineup craziness, the players need to be willing to show up for a game their getting paid 10's of thousands of dollars to PLAY. I think the Knicks situation is an example of both the players and the coach being of equal blame. Only solution is to kill off the dead weight, hire a cheerleader to coach in place of LB and send Malik, Taylor, Crawford and James down to the D-league for some humble pie.</div> How can we not expect the Knicks to look confused and completely out of sync most of the time? There’s absolutely no continuity on Brown’s part. Players’ effort isn’t as intense because they know this is a lost season, their coach trashes them, and they play inconsistent minutes despite being serviceable most of the times. I’m sure if many more NBA players were in this position it would affect their effort, too. Getting rid of the coach is first and foremost. Brown is coaching horrendously and is to blame for the players’ performance. The players are completely lost and have no confidence because of Larry Brown. Look no further than the quote shape left as evidence—evidence worth more than 3-6 wins.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey MrJ I have a question for you and anyone else who thinks Larry Brown is doing a lousy job. Who has to lose with this team before you admit that this team cant win no matter who is the coach? Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Rick Carlisle? Van Gundy? Flip Saunders? Popovich? I said it in the preseason this team was bad and no coach living or dead in the history of sports could get this team anywhere near .500. Brown definetely had an idea of what he was getting into but he can only do his best with what he has to work with. You can have the greatest brain surgeon in the world but if he doesnt have the tools to perform the surgery than there's nothing he can do. That doesnt make him a bad brain surgeon it means that the surgery simply cant be done.</div> Hey, Tribute I have a question for you. Do you think Brown is doing a lousy job? Brown has a lot to work with, but he’s not utilizing it correctly. I’m not saying that the Knicks would be championship contenders or even make the playoffs, but they would be better than 15-42. Much better I might add. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I said it before the season began and I'll say it again: Larry Brown is not Jesus Christ. He cannot walk on water and he cant perform miracles like getting this sorry team anywhere near the playoffs. We've had a former coach of the year, the winningest coach in history, a nice prospect and now we have the best coach in the NBA. The only constant has been the team and of course Isiah Thomas. Brown has gone to the finals in back to back years and been a winner everywhere he has gone and now that he's coaching the Knicks he's all of a sudden a bad coach? I dont think so. Any coach who tries to coach this team of losers will lose. This team makes any coach regardless of how good they may actually be look bad. So tell me again guys who has to fail with this collection of misfits and losers for you to realize that the team is the problem not the coach?</div> I didn’t like Don Chaney that much, but he did well considering what he was given. We had the winningest coach in NBA history, but you also forgot to mention he was the losingest coach, too. Even with Chaney, Wilkins, and Herb Williams, we had a much better record than we did right now. Brown has won everywhere he’s gone right? Let’s not forget that Brown also can’t keep himself set. Whenever a team is on a downfall he leaves. Do you think Brown could have made the Clippers a playoff-caliber team during their drought? And could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? They went from losing in the Finals to losing in the first round. Let’s be real with ourselves, this is the first time Brown has done such a bad job and what proves my point even more is the fact that HE admitted it. By his own admission he is doing a bad job. The guy who makes the Knicks a 15-42 team could be anyone as long as they don’t have 35 lineups in 57 games, doesn’t call his players delusional or knock them from going to an engineering school.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey, Tribute I have a question for you. Do you think Brown is doing a lousy job? Brown has a lot to work with, but he?s not utilizing it correctly. I?m not saying that the Knicks would be championship contenders or even make the playoffs, but they would be better than 15-42. Much better I might add. I didn?t like Don Chaney that much, but he did well considering what he was given. We had the winningest coach in NBA history, but you also forgot to mention he was the losingest coach, too. Even with Chaney, Wilkins, and Herb Williams, we had a much better record than we did right now. Brown has won everywhere he?s gone right? Let?s not forget that Brown also can?t keep himself set. Whenever a team is on a downfall he leaves. Do you think Brown could have made the Clippers a playoff-caliber team during their drought? And could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? They went from losing in the Finals to losing in the first round. Let?s be real with ourselves, this is the first time Brown has done such a bad job and what proves my point even more is the fact that HE admitted it. By his own admission he is doing a bad job. The guy who makes the Knicks a 15-42 team could be anyone as long as they don?t have 35 lineups in 57 games, doesn?t call his players delusional or knock them from going to an engineering school.</div> Dont answer a question with a question. My question was very simple. So please answer it since I've been asking it for a long time. Who has to fail with this team for you to say it's just the team's fault and the coach no matter who it is cant help it? Give me a name. Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Jeff Van Gundy? Rick Carlisle? Pat Riley? Do you understand the question? Because if you dont I'll explain it to you. This team is most certainly not better than it's record. Have you even been watching the games lately? The Knicks are lucky they can lose only one game at a time. The reason why we had a better record under those other guys than with Larry Brown is because those teams were probably better and the East was much weaker. Could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? Could he have made the Clippers a playoff team during their drought? I dont know and you dont know either. Noone knows what would have happened to the 76ers had he stayed. All that anyone knows is he was there they went to the Finals, he left and they've been stuck in mediocrity ever since. You claiming the Clippers and 76ers would have been bad with or without him is purely speculation so please try not to get that confused with fact. Do you really think Larry Brown would come out and say this team is as bad as it's record and there's nothing any coach could do about it? Larry Brown saying he needs to do a better job is just talk. There is nothing anyone can do to help this team except God and maybe Jesus. I dont think I've heard of an NBA coach admit that his team is just plain atrocious. Have you? Now please answer my question(anyone else is free to answer my question by the way): Who has to lose with this team for you to finally just say "this team is just really bad and the coaching simply doesnt matter"? Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dont answer a question with a question. My question was very simple. So please answer it since I've been asking it for a long time. Who has to fail with this team for you to say it's just the team's fault and the coach no matter who it is cant help it? Give me a name. Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Jeff Van Gundy? Rick Carlisle? Pat Riley? Do you understand the question? Because if you dont I'll explain it to you. This team is most certainly not better than it's record. Have you even been watching the games lately? The Knicks are lucky they can lose only one game at a time. The reason why we had a better record under those other guys than with Larry Brown is because those teams were probably better and the East was much weaker. Could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? Could he have made the Clippers a playoff team during their drought? I dont know and you dont know either. Noone knows what would have happened to the 76ers had he stayed. All that anyone knows is he was there they went to the Finals, he left and they've been stuck in mediocrity ever since. You claiming the Clippers and 76ers would have been bad with or without him is purely speculation so please try not to get that confused with fact. Do you really think Larry Brown would come out and say this team is as bad as it's record and there's nothing any coach could do about it? Larry Brown saying he needs to do a better job is just talk. There is nothing anyone can do to help this team except God and maybe Jesus. I dont think I've heard of an NBA coach admit that his team is just plain atrocious. Have you? Now please answer my question(anyone else is free to answer my question by the way): Who has to lose with this team for you to finally just say "this team is just really bad and the coaching simply doesnt matter"?</div> If any of the coaches you named fail then I’ll believe it. But the thing about it is I doubt any of the coaches you named above would do as bad a job as Larry Brown. Now that I have answered your question, please answer mine. Do you think Larry Brown is doing a good job coaching the Knicks. It’s not better than its record? The fact that the Knicks have about a .420 win percentage when Marbury and Curry plays proves that they are better than their record. Marbury is arguable the most durable player in the entire league and was injured this season, so that just shows how big a part injuries have affected this team. Actually they weren’t that much better at all. If anything this team is better than any of the teams we’ve had the previous years, but it isn’t being coached correctly. Brown went to Detroit and coached a former Rick Carlisle team that went to the Eastern Conference Finals a year ago. They also added Rasheed Wallace to the team when Brown was coaching. Even the players in Detroit said that Brown got too much credit for taking over a title contending team, especially after acquiring a two-time all. In Indiana after the Pacers went 39-43, he left and went to the 76ers. After he got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, he went to Detroit, a team already in a position to win. That just shows Brown is leaving when a team is declining. Whether or not they rebound from their season is speculation, but it’s a FACT when Brown’s teams are declining he leaves. Why not? Brown has trashed his team before, why can’t he do it again? He called Ariza delusional and said Marbury can’t understand a concept because he went to an engineering school for one year. Does the ridiculous rotations he has have something to do with it? Or the 35 lineups in 57 games have anything to do with it? He said Francis would be a fulltime starter for the Knicks, but he has him coming off the bench. He said it will only take him 20 games to find a set rotation and starting lineup. It has been 57 games and he still can’t find one. He said we’re bad on defense, but he had our best defender on the bench. He said since the season is lost we’ll play the young guys more. Nate’s been inactive and Lee barely gets anytime. He’s getting minutes as of late, but whenever he plays well Brown seems to put him on the bench. Same thing goes for everyone on the team. Don’t believe me, check out that Golden State game. What about how he kills everyone’s confidence with the shots to the New York media of all people. Do you think that has any effect on the way we play? Of course it does. There’s been nothing but confusion with the team because of Larry Brown’s lack of continuity. If Larry Brown was Lenny Wilkens, a coach you hated, especially last season, you would be calling for his head, but you’re blinded by Brown’s track record to admit he’s doing an awful job with this team.
I think its rather shortsighted to fire Larry right now. He has not done a good job creating some chemistry and finding some consistency with this team. But then again you have to realize how difficult it would be to make this team play well. Consistent rotations would make the team play better, but they would still be losing about the same amount of games. Their defense is just too poor to make a case that this team could be significantly better. No other coach in the league could make this group of players into a playoff team, even in a weak Eastern conference.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post"> Saying the blowouts would be closer doesn’t really hold much water, what matters is winning and losing.</div> I disagree. Its not the Knicks record that most people have the problem with, its the simple fact that 80% of those losses werent even close, and they werent close because the players didnt seem to show up. Larry Brown doing a bad job or not, i'll let you guys discuss that cuase its too much for me...how do you seperate the blame between a coach, a team and the GM? All i know is that the Knicks have played crappy for a few years now, and not because they dont have talent..its because they dont have 1) defensive skills 2) effort. Larry Brown is a terrific coach in my opinion..the reason why he's made so many strange moves this season (like Rose's Memphis DNP) i have no clue...all i know is that in almost any situation i prefer to blame the players. These guys get payed millions to play a game...and they dont do it very well. Why? ....they dont try
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Its not the Knicks record that most people have the problem with, its the simple fact that 80% of those losses werent even close, and they werent close because the players didnt seem to show up. Larry Brown doing a bad job or not, i'll let you guys discuss that cuase its too much for me...how do you seperate the blame between a coach, a team and the GM? All i know is that the Knicks have played crappy for a few years now, and not because they dont have talent..its because they dont have 1) defensive skills 2) effort. Larry Brown is a terrific coach in my opinion..the reason why he's made so many strange moves this season (like Rose's Memphis DNP) i have no clue...all i know is that in almost any situation i prefer to blame the players. These guys get payed millions to play a game...and they dont do it very well. Why? ....they dont try</div> The Knicks average loss is by 6.5 points. Saying they get blown out 80% of their losses is clearly an exaggeration. Hope you weren?t serious. Last year they played crappy, and despite having a much better team this year, we?re playing even worse. The year before that we made the playoffs and the year before that we were out of contention by about 4 games, I believe. This was the year McDyess was injured. Point is, this team should be much better than their current record and it is due to Larry Brown?s poor utilization of this team?s talent. As I said before, whether or not they would have a playoff seed is different. Could they, however, be in contention for an eighth seed? I think so. The Knicks don?t have great defense, but neither did Phoenix, Dallas, Seattle last year, Sacramento, Denver, Philadelphia, and I can go on. Not to say this team is better than them, but if the Knicks were better offensively, which, for the most part, is Brown?s fault, they would be in a better position to compensate for their defensive deficiencies. As I said before, it?s hard to always put in effort when your coach is tearing you up and you know you?re playing in a lost season. Am I justifying their actions for not always giving 100% despite playing in a lost season? No, but many players, perhaps a majority of them would have done no different in a similar situation. Brown has quite a track record, but the fact of the matter is he is doing a bad job coaching the Knicks. He just doesn?t always seem to utilize talent properly. Look no further than the Team USA thrashing. This isn?t a good fit for Larry Brown and his 36 lineups in 58 games prove that he?s not the right man of the job. There?s no consistency, there?s no trust, (two factors affecting the Knicks? effort) and there?s clearly no plan Brown has in mind. This is especially apparent with his knack for contradicting himself. What do their contracts have anything to do with the situation? It shows that they?re overpaid? Okay? but does that really matter? What matters is the Knicks are losing because of Larry Brown not coaching this team properly by his own admission. This should be a run and gun team with consistent starting lineups and rotations. Brown is taking away their strengths and is implementing his own style even though it doesn?t fit with this team. You might think he?s a terrific coach, but he definitely isn?t a terrific coach for this team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks average loss is by 6.5 points. Saying they get blown out 80% of their losses is clearly an exaggeration. Hope you weren’t serious. </div> You're to much about stats. I've seen blowouts with 6 point differences at the end of the game. I've seen close games that had a 15 point difference. 6.5 is a lot of points to loose by on average. What are the comparable teams to the Knicks in the eastern conferance in terms of their standing Atlanta -5.5 ppg (lots of youth) Charlotte -4.9 ppg (lots of youth) Toronto -2.3 ppg 6.5 is the highest number in the eastern conference. Only the blazers have a higher average loss (8ppg). And to me thats better than the knicks 6.5 becuase the blazers face MUCH tougher competetition out west AND they've got much more youth on the team which is a partial excuse. The Knicks get blown out alot. And the reason that happens isnt just about questionable coaching moves...its about the players having no heart, and simply not giving 100% And true you have a much more talent this year...but i dont think you have a much better "team". And its not only the stats i'm talking about. A problem with this team is that there's no direction, there arent clearly defined role players, everyone's out for theirs. This Knicks team has by far the lowest assistoint ratio, in the entire league. Part of that might be the coach, but i think a large part of it is becuase most of the players on the team are shoot first second third pass forth type players, and they have been through their careers. I think the Knicks get worse the more "talent" they add, every additional player they get seems to only add to the seperation seen within this team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">You're to much about stats. I've seen blowouts with 6 point differences at the end of the game. I've seen close games that had a 15 point difference. 6.5 is a lot of points to loose by on average. What are the comparable teams to the Knicks in the eastern conferance in terms of their standing Atlanta -5.5 ppg (lots of youth) Charlotte -4.9 ppg (lots of youth) Toronto -2.3 ppg 6.5 is the highest number in the eastern conference. Only the blazers have a higher average loss (8ppg). And to me thats better than the knicks 6.5 becuase the blazers face MUCH tougher competetition out west AND they've got much more youth on the team which is a partial excuse. The Knicks get blown out alot. And the reason that happens isnt just about questionable coaching moves...its about the players having no heart, and simply not giving 100% And true you have a much more talent this year...but i dont think you have a much better "team". And its not only the stats i'm talking about. A problem with this team is that there's no direction, there arent clearly defined role players, everyone's out for theirs. This Knicks team has by far the lowest assistoint ratio, in the entire league. Part of that might be the coach, but i think a large part of it is becuase most of the players on the team are shoot first second third pass forth type players, and they have been through their careers. I think the Knicks get worse the more "talent" they add, every additional player they get seems to only add to the seperation seen within this team.</div> 6.5 points on average never equates to 80% blowouts. As I said before, a lot of the times the Knicks were getting blown out were during Marbury’s injury. The Knicks lost on average by 12 points during that streak. I’ve said this in just about every post in this thread. 36 lineups in 58 games = a lot of inconsistency. I don’t know how to spell it out any better. The turnovers are a direct result of the inconsistent play. Let’s be real… how can you expect to be consistent when you’re playing 30 minutes in the starting lineup and 0 minutes the very next game. Then you play a week of consistently in the rotation. Then, for no reason, you’re out of it for two weeks. This isn’t NBA Live, players aren’t robots. You can’t honestly expect players to be consistent after being played so inconsistently. It’s simply inhuman to adjust to so much inconsistency, especially in one year. Guys like Q-Rich and Jamal find their rhythm in the flow of the game, but they can never find their rhythm playing their inconsistent minutes. Don’t say part of it is because of the coach—just about all of it is due to him. Take that from someone who has watched every single Knick game and some multiple times. The Knicks are not a selfish team at all. In fact, sometimes they should be more selfish. The fact no one is hitting shots is the reason the assist numbers are so low. And no, they don’t add to the player separation. Larry Brown is. He’s talking trash about his players to the media and the players said themselves they don’t appreciate it. When you can’t trust your coach it in return affects your effort, no? Again, I’m not at all suggesting the Knicks would be a great team had they been coached correctly, but if they were, there would be a much bigger improvement. Plain and simple.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">6.5 points on average never equates to 80% blowouts.</div> hey well i dont have %'s on the number of blowouts they've had, but i think you read to much into the 6.5 number. 6.5 might sound close but its not, and thats becuase the number is decieving. Alot of times its worse than that and then the Knicks score a couple easy one's vs the other teams garbage time crew and that makes it 8 point's down or something like that. I dont know the numbers...there's to many variables to look it up, however i'm sure if you could do a calculation on it the Knicks have played more games where they never really threatened their opposition than every team in the NBA. The players come into the game asleep and by the time half comes around they've given up. Thats not the coach in my mind...thats the players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">hey well i dont have %'s on the number of blowouts they've had, but i think you read to much into the 6.5 number. 6.5 might sound close but its not, and thats becuase the number is decieving. Alot of times its worse than that and then the Knicks score a couple easy one's vs the other teams garbage time crew and that makes it 8 point's down or something like that. I dont know the numbers...there's to many variables to look it up, however i'm sure if you could do a calculation on it the Knicks have played more games where they never really threatened their opposition than every team in the NBA. The players come into the game asleep and by the time half comes around they've given up. Thats not the coach in my mind...thats the players.</div> Well, I can say the Knicks played some close games, but needed to foul at the end and free throws inflated the score. It's a two-way street, really. And the players don't come to the game asleep. They usually are unable to hit shots for many reasons: A) Many are fastbreak players and the Knicks don't run. Marbury has been injured a lot and gives a lot of players open looks C) Players lack confidence because of Brown's bashing D) They run very little plays for anyone other than Eddy Curry
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The plan was to obviously make the playoffs with Brown around. I think we definitely had a legit shot if: a)Curry came to camp healthy and in shape Larry Brown coached well Hopefully Carmelo Anthony and Tim Duncan suffer from injuries this season. </div> Even if they planned to make the playoffs.....whats the harm in protecting it. The bulls were looking to get rid of curry anyway, i doubt they would have put up a huge fuss. The bulls raped them on that deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if they planned to make the playoffs.....whats the harm in protecting it. The bulls were looking to get rid of curry anyway, i doubt they would have put up a huge fuss. The bulls raped them on that deal.</div> Yeah, that's why no one understands it.
Isiah brought a buch of guys who were always offensive minded players, players who don't execute normal plays, players who like to play on one on one situations, indiviually. Thats why the turnover to assist ratio is the worst in the NBA. The blame simply goes to Dolan and Isiah. Has Larry Brown done a bad job? No question, he's been terrible to adapting to his players, adapting to their styles and working with them. Larry Brown has been immature and stubborn the whole season, blasting out his guys in the media. Thats not a good mix, Isiah should of seen it from the start of the season. Our talent is overrated, I wouldn't mind if Isiah and Brown resigned, Dolan comitted suicide, and a new president/GM comes in, and trades everyone, and starts from a clean slate of new players and faces. I'm really sick of the players faces on this team except for Lee, Fyre, and suddenly Richardson, who's been the leader of this all season, showing toughness on defense. I'm just looking foward to Richardson getting back to 40% FG and 38% 3pt....and atleast double digits, thats my guy now.
