<div class="quote_poster">Bobcats Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">To all you Wade haters, og15 just owned you.</div> 'tis true. 'tis true.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Lebron has never been as good at drawing fouls as Wade, even when they were rookies. From watching games, to me, part of that is because at times when Lebron drives, because of his power, people will clear out when he's taken off, while with Wade, the same thing doesn't really happen since Wade isn't going to eat you alive. That would cause a slight difference, and also because Wade is better at drawing fouls, I don't think it's anything devious.</div> I don't see how Wade is better at "drawing fouls". Unless by that you mean playing it off, then yes I can agree. I've seen Wade numerous times do something, like fall after a shot or drive, and have little to no contact and get a call. I also don't quite understand what you mean with, people clearing when LeBron drives. Never seen anyone just step to the side to let 'Bron dunk it, unless it was a gimme point. In that case, people do the same for Wade as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I don't think he can play like Carmelo does. First of all, Carmelo is in a different offense, but he's also a power SF, and can seal his man well, and get those easy baskets, Wade can't do that at SG. If Wade was to get assisted more, it would be him just shooting more of his jumpers off catch and shoots coming off screens as opposed to his inside shots being assisted more, so it wouldn't change anything really.</div> Well I wasn't saying to play more like 'Melo. Also, you say things wouldn't change much in terms of his DrawF% if he was assisted more on his FGA? I can't say I would agree, the most logical thing would be for his Inside% and DrawF% to drop, even if it were to be slightly. If this did occur, and his DrawF% did not drop then I can safely say that Wade is "paying off the refs" and recieve no arguement otherwise. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Three things come into play here. Remember the touch foul rules started being called more in 04-05, there was a league wide increase in most (it's never all) slashing type players' FT attempts that year, not just relating to Wade. I'll show the numbers from non 03-04 rookies. <u>03-04 to 04-05, Inside%, FTA/48 and Foul Draw %</u> Pierce - (23%, 9.8 and 13.3%) to (30%, 10.8 and 15.4%) Iverson - (28%, 10.7 and 13.7%) to (32%, 11.9 and 14.1%) Vince (22%, 7.2 and 7.5%) to (on the Nets, 30%, 8.4 and 10.7%) McGrady (20%, 9.0 and 12.0%) to (23%, 8.4 and 12.2%) Kobe (34%, 10.5 FT/48, 14.8%) to (29%, 11.9 FT/48, 16.0%) Corey (37%, 11.4 FTA/48, 20%) to (29%, 12.9 FT/48, 21.2%) Rip (29%, 5.9 FT/48, 9.6%) to (26%, 7.0 FT/48, 11.6%) We can see a general increase for most guys. Some guys like Kobe, Rip and Maggette were scoring inside less, but drawing even more fouls. </div> Can't argue here. Poor rules/officiating was league round, not just for any one superstar. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Vince is an interesting case because while he scored inside more on the Nets, they used him more in the post, so part of his inside increase is more fadeaway jumpers from the block, and not actually driving inside. </div> I don't watch Vince nearly as much as I watch the others, so I'll have to take your word for it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">There's also that natural progression as a player, you can't expect him not to be capable of improving his ability to draw fouls. For example, look at Bosh, as a rookie, he had 38% of his shots inside, and 15.6% FoulD, in 04-05, 39% inside, and 19.9% FoulD. Amare from 03-04 to 04-05 had 47-48% inside play, but increased his foul draw% from 19.7 to 23.0%. Young players can improve in an area like this, especially when they rise in the option rank. </div> Can we not attribute that to the poor officiating as time goes on as well though? Not saying they aren't playing "smarter" by knowing how to draw a foul, not trying to knock them. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Lastly, when a player rises as an option, there also seems to be a corelation to increased drawing of fouls. They have the ball in the hands more, so they're the ones getting the FT's for no shooting fouls when the team is in the bonus. Another example, Kevin Martin going from just another option to almost a first option in Sacramento. Comparing last season to this season: (33% inside, 5.6 FT/48, 14% foul draw) to (27% inside, 9.3 FTA/48, 18% foul draw)</div> True, but you also have to take into consideration how Kevin Martin plays. Again the maturity part comes in, he now uses his frame to dictate how he gets those fouls. I've seen him get a slight bump and act like he was thrown around like a rag doll. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">I made an argument from watching Wade play. Which to me is a lot more reliable then stats.</div> Well it depends, unless you watch all 82 games of that specific player then I can't agree that it is more reliable. Also, I watch Wade as well which is why I am on the fence with this arguement. The stats obviously show that there is nothing wrong with "superstar calls". We all know this to be false as it is obvious there is almost always poor officiating playing a hand. Another reason why I still think Wade gets more B.S. calls than most, because I watch him play. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">You're "fact" is a matter of opinion, and I actually agree with you. However it is because "he slashes".</div> No, it is still fact that Wade gets the most amount of superstar calls when taking into consideration his FGA, position, shot selection, and assisted shots. It also isn't because "he slashes". Like og15 said, it is in due part to him being adept at drawing fouls, a.k.a. acting. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting XSV:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he has matured as a player and is now more adept at drawing fouls.</div> Not really imo. How can you slash less and less, yet still maintain the same amount of calls from when your inside% was at an all time high? It is practically impossible to continue to draw fouls on jumpshots unless you are acting, like I said before. If that is the case, then why doesn't many other superstars have similar DrawF%?
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Well it depends, unless you watch all 82 games of that specific player then I can't agree that it is more reliable. Also, I watch Wade as well which is why I am on the fence with this arguement. The stats obviously show that there is nothing wrong with "superstar calls". We all know this to be false as it is obvious there is almost always poor officiating playing a hand. Another reason why I still think Wade gets more B.S. calls than most, because I watch him play. No, it is still fact that Wade gets the most amount of superstar calls when taking into consideration his FGA, position, shot selection, and assisted shots. It also isn't because "he slashes". Like og15 said, it is in due part to him being adept at drawing fouls, a.k.a. acting. Not really imo. How can you slash less and less, yet still maintain the same amount of calls from when your inside% was at an all time high? It is practically impossible to continue to draw fouls on jumpshots unless you are acting, like I said before. If that is the case, then why doesn't many other superstars have similar DrawF%?</div> I'd be lying if I said I watch 82 games the Heat play. But I easily watch more then half. What I don't think you realize that poor officiating effects everyone. It's just Wade is better then everyone else. Simple as that, if he wasn't so get at drawing fouls, or slashing, he wouldn't be getting those calls. A huge, huge part of slashing is drawing contact and finishing. Wade is just spectacular at it. You see wade a lot of times get the defender in the air, and draw the foul on his jump shot like that. You can't blame the kid for having a savvy basketball mind. He may be inside less, but that doesn't take anything away from his slashing ability. Just because he manages to spend more time on the perimeter because of his improved shooting, doesn't make him less of a slasher. In fact, it makes him better at drawing fouls. Because defenders have to actually contest the shot. Acting is a part of the game. If you tell me that AI, Kobe, Bron, Manu especially. etc etc don't act I'll just laugh at you. You're a Laker fan. You should know all about acting. I mean, just look at Divac. If someone touched him he'd go down like someone shot him. And the refs would call it. I agree with, in the fact that Wade gets the most star calls in the league. But it's not fact because it's subject to opinion. It's a fact that Wade is the best slasher in the league, due to his FTA and the amount of scoring he gets down there. Slashing isn't all about getting the bucket. A huge, huge part of it is getting the contact.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see how Wade is better at "drawing fouls". Unless by that you mean playing it off, then yes I can agree. I've seen Wade numerous times do something, like fall after a shot or drive, and have little to no contact and get a call. I also don't quite understand what you mean with, people clearing when LeBron drives. Never seen anyone just step to the side to let 'Bron dunk it, unless it was a gimme point. In that case, people do the same for Wade as well.</div> He plays the angles better, he puts his body into the defender to draw the foul, while Lebron just beasts through guys for fouls. Lebron doesn't do it as much also because he doesn't really need to. I think Wade's falling down thing has a lot to do with momentum when he's driving to the basket, he does this full speed ahead thing. No, that's not what I mean, but if you look at Lebron, when he's drawing fouls, a good amount of times (in comparison to others) they're and 1's, and more often than Wade, when Lebron get's up, not when he drives, but when he's already in the air, players will refrain from fouling him so they don't give up the basket + a foul because he's so strong that more than not he'll finish the play. Or maybe it's just the I don't want to get dunked on mentality that some guys have these days. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I wasn't saying to play more like 'Melo. Also, you say things wouldn't change much in terms of his DrawF% if he was assisted more on his FGA? I can't say I would agree, the most logical thing would be for his Inside% and DrawF% to drop, even if it were to be slightly. If this did occur, and his DrawF% did not drop then I can safely say that Wade is "paying off the refs" and recieve no arguement otherwise.</div> Like I said, if his assisted percentage increased drastically, it would be a large increase in his assisted jumpshot percentage, not his inside percentages. Which is where the whole how he plays come in. He's a 6'5 guard, it would be VERY difficult and really not possible for him to play a style where he get's assisted on like 60% on his inside baskets. Right now he's assisted on 23% of his jumpshots, that's about 1/5. So if he was getting assisted more, the increase would come in jumpshot assists, and he's not drawing most of his fouls on jumpshots anyways. I hope that made sense. ....but anyways, it's not something that's likely to happen, soo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't watch Vince nearly as much as I watch the others, so I'll have to take your word for it. </div> Vince is a unique case, when he does drive he get's the calls (though not as much as some others), but he's too confident in his shooting ability for his own good sometimes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Can we not attribute that to the poor officiating as time goes on as well though? Not saying they aren't playing "smarter" by knowing how to draw a foul, not trying to knock them.</div> The reason I correlated to the big men is because the touch foul rules really seemed to only be helping perimeter players. I fouls were called on big's like they are on guard's, Shaq and Yao would attempt 20 FT's a game. They're a lot more contact allowed on the big men than on the guards. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but you also have to take into consideration how Kevin Martin plays. Again the maturity part comes in, he now uses his frame to dictate how he gets those fouls. I've seen him get a slight bump and act like he was thrown around like a rag doll.</div> He is pretty thin though, so maybe he's not acting Like I said earlier though, Wade get's calls, but based on how fouls are called, he deserves 10+ trips to the line a game. No one can come and argue that, and if they can, I'll be welcome to hear it. So even if he was getting more bad calls, what everyone would be arguing is something like him getting one more call every 2-3 games than the other star wing scorer. To me that's not really worth arguing much.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The reason I correlated to the big men is because the touch foul rules really seemed to only be helping perimeter players. I fouls were called on big's like they are on guard's, Shaq and Yao would attempt 20 FT's a game. They're a lot more contact allowed on the big men than on the guards.</div> Good point, but Bosh and Amare are a lot more athletic and versatile than Shaq and Yao. This isn't about them though. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">He is pretty thin though, so maybe he's not acting </div> Lol, good point. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said earlier though, Wade get's calls, but based on how fouls are called, he deserves 10+ trips to the line a game. No one can come and argue that, and if they can, I'll be welcome to hear it. So even if he was getting more bad calls, what everyone would be arguing is something like him getting one more call every 2-3 games than the other star wing scorer. To me that's not really worth arguing much.</div> I wouldn't argue that Wade deserves his share of calls. He gets wacked a couple times a game, but other times it really isn't deserving. That 1-2 extra B.S. calls every 2-3 games add up. To be getting so many by the end of the year really frustrates me with the state the officiating is at. Not just Wade, but it seems he is the one who gets the most out of the bunch. I'm not knocking his skill and talent, because Dwyane is a great player. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Acting is a part of the game. If you tell me that AI, Kobe, Bron, Manu especially. etc etc don't act I'll just laugh at you. You're a Laker fan. You should know all about acting. I mean, just look at Divac. If someone touched him he'd go down like someone shot him. And the refs would call it.</div> Can't speak about Divac. Didn't see him in his Laker days, or much in has King days either. To be completely honest though, I've never seen any superstar act like Wade. Wade will stay on the floor, or fall almost every other play. Other players don't hobble after any form of human contact. Kobe and LeBron don't do that to my knowledge. AI will do that to a lesser extent, but he wont go so far as Wade. Not saying everytime he falls he doesn't get hurt, but it gets ridiculous when he falls down from a jumpshot and covers his face like his manhood was taken away from him. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">It's a fact that Wade is the best slasher in the league, due to his FTA and the amount of scoring he gets down there. </div> That is opinion, and partly untrue. Just because you have a high FTA doesn't make you a good slasher, and Wades scoring "down there" is even with a lot of people. Not that it matters, but imo LeBron is the best slasher for reasons og15 said.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said earlier though, Wade get's calls, but based on how fouls are called, he deserves 10+ trips to the line a game. No one can come and argue that, and if they can, I'll be welcome to hear it. So even if he was getting more bad calls, what everyone would be arguing is something like him getting one more call every 2-3 games than the other star wing scorer. To me that's not really worth arguing much.</div> Amen. That paragraph basically summed up this whole topic perfectly, rather than this thread page extrapolating to 5+ pages.
Kobe attempted 1 less FT than the entire Warrior team, so why aren't people complaining about how he's "ruining the game" and how the "refs love him." Oh wait...maybe it's because all the people doing the whining are Kobe fans.
I can't comment on last night's game since I only got to see bits and pieces of it. Us "Kobe fans" and us "Laker fans" aren't the only ones complaining about Dwyane Wade. Go and ask the Dallas Maverick fans, who had the Finals all locked up until..............Dwyane Wade. Also, look around JBB and look through the whole topic. "Kobe and Laker fans" aren't the only ones hating on Dwyane Wade. I must admit that after reading some of og15's posts, it kind of lightened my stance just a little bit on Dwayne Wade (og15 was really convincing). But you can't deny the fact that Wade gets more favorable calls than anyone in the league. Just ask Rasheed Wallace: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As the players started warming up Thursday, Rasheed Wallace deliberately tumbled onto the court repeatedly, rolling onto his back and throwing his long legs over his head. He was making a humorous point. "I'm practicing my D-Wade," Wallace said of Dwyane Wade. The Miami star is known for getting to the line sometimes with the aid of theatrics. He shot 10-for-13 from the line in Thursday's 87-85 loss to the Pistons. Wallace ran toward an imaginary Wade and said, "Hoo!" Then he played the part of the officials and said, "That's a foul. You said "Hoo!" to D-Wade."</div> Link Or even Tracy McGrady: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Interviewer: Was it a little ridiculous how Dwyane Wade got all the calls? TMac: Yeah, yeah it really was. I'll tell you man, it seems if you were watching that game, seemed like it was rigged. Seriously. I know the NBA.... (cut off by interviewer) Interviewer: You just got fined (sarcastically) TMac: I dont care. So what? But yeah it seemed like it was rigged. With all the calls he was getting. Jesus. Did you hear me? We are talking about the NBA Finals, I wish I could say I was just kidding, and thats what it seemed like. Im serious alot of my friends watched the games, watched the finals, and thats the way they say it to me. They are like, from watching the game here, it seems like it is rigged. I was like man, I dont know nothing about that.</div> Audio Link So if players who actually play in the NBA are complaining about Dwyane Wade, then something must be up. Also, Phil Jackson comments on Wade's famous spin move <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"He travels on that spin move," Jackson said. "He picks up that pivot foot... everybody knows it. Dwayne Wade can cover so much ground when he makes that move. As you know, he can go 20 feet with that spin move and get to the basket." </div> Youtube video of Wade's spin move: Invalid Video Link http://youtube.com/watch?v=eTRxVyo2ixw&mode=related&search= ^ Travel of no travel? Again, og15's comments were very convincing, but if NBA players, and NBA coaches are complaining, again, something must be up. Maybe og15 can convince me otherwise
Sounds like T-Mac is a bit jealous of Wade getting his title in 3 years and Phil is just mad that Wade ate his team alive on Christmas. Let's no even start with Waaaasheed because he's lost all credibility with the stupid **** he's done. Og15 basically summed it up, if you look at the stats there's really nothing "suspicious", or any "rigged" games either. It's just the way he plays the game.
<div class="quote_poster">Playmaker15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sounds like T-Mac is a bit jealous of Wade getting his title in 3 years and Phil is just mad that Wade ate his team alive on Christmas. Let's no even start with Waaaasheed because he's lost all credibility with the stupid **** he's done.</div> I don't buy the fact that T-Mac is jealous. Come on, if you watched the Finals, you can't possibly tell me something was up, and Phil Jackson made the comment before the Christmas game. Also, watch the Youtube video and tell me if the spin is a travel or not
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't buy the fact that T-Mac is jealous. Come on, if you watched the Finals, you can't possibly tell me something was up, and Phil Jackson made the comment before the Christmas game. Also, watch the Youtube video and tell me if the spin is a travel or not</div> Um, it wasnt a travel... I think og15 should do our arguing for the Heat forum, he is master debator...
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't buy the fact that T-Mac is jealous. Come on, if you watched the Finals, you can't possibly tell me something was up, and Phil Jackson made the comment before the Christmas game. Also, watch the Youtube video and tell me if the spin is a travel or not</div> Who cares? It's one play. If I get the video footage of Dirk making TD foul out because Dirk stepped on Duncans foot and fell does that mean anything?
<div class="quote_poster">Bobcats Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares? It's one play. If I get the video footage of Dirk making TD foul out because Dirk stepped on Duncans foot and fell does that mean anything?</div> It's the same spin move he does over and over again. This also isn't the first time I heard someone complaining his spin move was a travel
<div class="quote_poster">Notorious Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Um, it wasnt a travel... I think og15 should do our arguing for the Heat forum, he is master debator...</div> I counted 3 steps........
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I can't comment on last night's game since I only got to see bits and pieces of it. I must admit that after reading some of og15's posts, it kind of lightened my stance just a little bit on Dwayne Wade (og15 was really convincing). But you can't deny the fact that Wade gets more favorable calls than anyone in the league. Just ask Rasheed Wallace: Link Or even Tracy McGrady: Audio Link So if players who actually play in the NBA are complaining about Dwyane Wade, then something must be up. Also, Phil Jackson comments on Wade's famous spin move ^ Travel of no travel? Again, og15's comments were very convincing, but if NBA players, and NBA coaches are complaining, again, something must be up. Maybe og15 can convince me otherwise</div> Rasheed wouldn't be the best source for "all the players are complaining". Rasheed complains over a lot of things especially him or his team not getting calls (or at least believing such), which leads to him getting a lot of Technicals. Phil Jackson, the guy plays mind games, obviously wanted to get into Wade's head the day before the Heat-Lakers game. Anyway the spin move is hard to call, just like the hop step. Tmac, I consider his discussion legit, when I was watching the finals I felt Wade was getting too many calls (also had to do with Dallas' defense on Wade), I also felt that Dallas wasn't being aggressive enough to get their share of calls.
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's the same spin move he does over and over again. This also isn't the first time I heard someone complaining his spin move was a travel</div> It's a travel, but lots of players get away with that.
<div class="quote_poster">Playmaker15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Og15 basically summed it up, if you look at the stats there's really nothing "suspicious", or any "rigged" games either. It's just the way he plays the game.</div> Even with the stats imo. there is a problem. I pointed that out a little bit ago. Even so, like rafy said, I watch games and there IS something wrong with those calls. Legit stat wise or not.
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Can't speak about Divac. Didn't see him in his Laker days, or much in has King days either. To be completely honest though, I've never seen any superstar act like Wade. Wade will stay on the floor, or fall almost every other play. Other players don't hobble after any form of human contact. Kobe and LeBron don't do that to my knowledge. AI will do that to a lesser extent, but he wont go so far as Wade. Not saying everytime he falls he doesn't get hurt, but it gets ridiculous when he falls down from a jumpshot and covers his face like his manhood was taken away from him. That is opinion, and partly untrue. Just because you have a high FTA doesn't make you a good slasher, and Wades scoring "down there" is even with a lot of people. Not that it matters, but imo LeBron is the best slasher for reasons og15 said.</div> So, you're saying just because he acts more than other players, slightly I may add because I can't agree with you fully, he's the bane of the NBA? Having a good FTA for a guard makes you an excellent slasher. Unless you shoot a horrible clip at FT line. I mean, it's a free bucket. A coach loves a guy who gets to the line. Being able to get to the free throw line makes you an excellent slasher. If you a good slasher, then you get to the line. Simple as that, people have to foul you because you'll finish it. There is a difference between a slasher and a finisher. Bron pretty much gets the ball in the hoop, he gets the consistent bucket. Not too many people are willing to take a charge from him. But Wade does both. Which is why he's the best slasher in the league. He gets to the line, and he can finish. And yes, there IS something wrong with quite a few calls. I'm the first to admit it. But if the refs actually started doing their job, the entire game would be different. Wades, and everyone else's. Also, it's funny how people complain about wade "traveling", but pretty much whenever Iverson crosses, he carries the ball. And so many other guards in the league.
Well then how come players and coaches don't complains about Iverson's carry over? How come players don't complain about foul calls on players like Kobe or Lebron? It seems like all the critisism is going towards Dwyane Wade. So obviously there must be a reason why he is recieving so much critisism from his fellow NBA players
