I shrug it off because Wade's defense really isn't that great. He's not so much better than LeBron there. I say Jordan wouldn't win with his Cavs team because when he first went to the playoffs with his crap team he didn't do anything with them either. You need teammates to win championships. LeBron was more of a leader on the floor than Wade but Wade just had more help. Wade isn't better than LeBron at anything on the offensive side in my opinion and if I had to choose one of them for my team I'd pick LeBron in a heartbeat, maybe even sooner than that, hah. Give LeBron an Elton Brand, KG, Amare Stoudemire and some role players and he'd win some championships. It just amazes me how you would call Wade a better winner when LeBron did just what Wade did but didn't have any help. If the Heat and Cavs played together without their superstars then that Heat team would beat the Cavs 10 straight at least. LeBron almost took one of the worst supporting casts in the playoffs to the ECF. He is much younger and inexperienced but still went farther than Kobe Bryant, the best player in the league, did. He's a winner for taking a sh*tty team to Game 7 of the conference semifinals. And his playoff performance was comparable to MJ's first the last I saw from that comparison.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It just amazes me how you would call Wade a better winner when LeBron did just what Wade did but didn't have any help.</div>Wait, Bron made 2 consecutive ECF, won one of them, went to Finals, led team from 0-2 down to 3 GW's shots/tiers, 36PPG to win series and a finals MVP? Bron did that?And I wouldn't call Bron's team shi**y by any means. Z is an all star caliber center, Gooden is a solid PF, Snow is a good PG with good veteran leadership, Hughes was there for half the season and played well (they had better record with him than without him), Marshall is a good shooter and came up huge in some games, Damon Jones didn't play much in playoffs but still had a GW, AV was great energy off bench, etc... I would call Kobe's team shi**y as he only had Lamar and a bunch of no name players, but almost everyone on the Cavs team has been there, done that.I don't care if Wade isn't great at defense, it is still 1/2 the game. IMO Wade is better scorer (I honestly can't believe people think Bron is a better scorer), equal playmaker, better leader (considering what he does when his team is down or struggling in playoffs), and better defender.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='131028' date='Aug 3 2006, 01:34 PM'] The Heat team didn't work together and wasn't amazing as you say. No one stepped up for the team for 2 and 3/4 games in the Finals, so Wade did. In the conference Finals it was pretty much all Wade and Shaq killing the Pistons.[/quote]"And all those good teammates I was speaking of were in need of a leader, James Posey isn't one to step up and do the work" Great job rewording exactly my reply... You didn't!!?? Then what was with the response to me saying:"Boozer began starting and the reason he began doing so well is because LeBron's playmaking in general"-HG in the post before "No, Boozer started playing well because maturity."-Nitro replying Oh damn! Seems like everything you say ends up biting you right in the ass! No sh*t? I never even implied that you didn't "acknowledge" anything, it was in a reply to what you said about Z, but hey if you want to ignore another point and reply to only one part of it, you go on right ahead. I understand your point there, but the whole thing was worded entirely wrong. Players from HS never get to experience college and it affects their skills BUT players from college have a SMALLER jump? That's either a contradiction or a totally wrongly worded reply. Wow. It took him 3 years to take a 17-65 team by himself COMING OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Is it such an EASY task for a converted HS player to take the worst team in the league and immediately turn them into a contender rather'd than a college bound player put on a team with more talent, and then the next year be on the same team with the "MDE". Get over it, Dwyane didn't have it as bad as LeBron did, Lebron did the most with what he got and I'll be damned if you're going to take away anything from his credibility..as if an injured Hughes, Zydrunas and incompetent/inconsistent Gooden is even near having ONE PLAYER in Shaq. I'd trade the whole Cavs lineup (besides LeBron) for Shaquille alone. And that's the whole difference between the situations there in. Inherently, Dwyane was put on a much more talented team in the Heat, Lebron was put on a team that went 17-65. Wade was MADE by the Heat, LeBron MADE the Cavs. Again, I wouldn't ever say Jordan carried his team though, he may have LED them and STEPPED UP but he did not carry them, which is what I've been stressing this whole time. Wow, so your suggesting for LeBron to score EVERY BASKET rather'd than dish the ball and get a higher percentage shot? Your suggesting that he HAS the killer instinct, but doesn't use it? Once again, your using the same material in the other debate, Lebron is NOT Kevin Garnett, the dude DOES take clutch shots and he HAS came up big. Its not a Duncan vs. Garnett debate pal, so dont act as if it was. Wow man, stop being so naive, JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT GET DOUBLED AND DONT AVERAGE SEASON NUMBERS, DOES NOT MEAN YOUR NOT HELPING OUT! Seriously man, you really need to know these things if your going to debate and even be named as the Smartest Member on here. They aren't demanding because they aren't as good! If you even watched the Cavs-Pistons series you'd know that Lebron was the main focus of the defense the whole time..you said Shaq had his best series against Detroit which was also another reason why the defense was more split and the therefore Dwyane had it easier. Look at Game 7 for example...Lebron's teammates went 9/41 from the floor. Wouldn't be a surprise to me that he didn't explode every game when his teammates incompetent for most of the series and James had to do the carrying again. Slighty tougher? How about Dwyane having the MDE having his BEST SERIES against the best defense! Obviously there's going to be a liability somewhere and therefore Dwyane exploited it all while Lebron had a much tougher defense going up against him, it was either dish or miss...you guess which was the obvious smarter choice.I'm sorry but putting all that up against a tough defense like the Pistons when there focused entirely on him is good in my standards, had Lebron played the defense against Dwyane, he'd be putting up better numbers..trust me. And how is that? Because he dished two GW assists in the playoffs instead of taking a shot [/b]What locker room leadership? Snow has never played "as the man", he's really not even the PG for the Cavs! Come on, his mentality is relied ALL ON DEFENSE and that's what his role in Philly basically was. Veteran leadership in the locker rooms...hah, that's laughable, I doubt someone soft spoken like Snow would try to encourage and rawl up someone like LeBron determined because of his "veteran presence".. Nice try...he's no Sam Cassell and once again, its not the KG vs TD debate! And I still dont get how Shaq getting single covered "backfired" when you said he had his best series against Detroit! And as for it "backfiring", I don't call it "backfiring" when they were EXPECTING DWYANE to blow up, HENCE THATS WHY THEY TRIED PREVENTING HIM! , Do I need to translate your own replies for you, man? Wow, just so you know, Iverson > Bron at scoring, Allen is arguably the best scorer in the league, 4 scoring titles for a reason. It doesn't matter who's more efficient neither, he has a slightly better percentage, but so what? He doesn't score more than him, so what's your point? James has averaged more points in EACH YEAR of Dwyane's career so you can't even argue that he's a better scorer, his teammates don't matter neither, HE DOESNT AVERAGE MORE POINTS and that's the bottom line, we're not working on potential and hypotheticals on how Wade would do WITHOUT his team like LeBron, we're debating on the situation CURRENTLY, so don't get it twisted. And let's see MJ's best scoring seasons shall we? : 37, 35, 32..ALL YEARS before the championship team came, HELL even look in '91 and '93, ALL MORE PPG THAN JAMES....so your point? Wait, Dwyane was the floor leader? What the hell was all this then: "Wade isn't even the main playmaker anymore with the additions of GP and Jason."But I thought Glove sucked! Oh and Dwyane LED HIS TEAM, not carrying, he LED his team through the season, through the playoffs, through the Finals, and 23 games is not enough for me to call him a better leader, in fact I even remember you saying Shaq was the leader because he brought in the "veteran leadership" ..well, Tracy ALMOST beat the Pistons in 7 games...in the first round , not to mention it was his 6th season as compared to LeBron's third. Team played well in Game 6, but LeBron put up 24 of his points up in that second half, the whole game was lost after a lead because they couldn't grab a rebound and they just got outplayed in the fourth, ONE MAN alone can't go up against 5. And Game 7? Chance my ass, the team went 9/41 that game all out of James hands..Easily, people love players like Duncan for his leadership because he molded players like Ginobili, Parker all into superstars, Shaq because he molded players like Bryant, Penny and Dwyane into superstars, but who did it for LeBron? NOONE! Instead, he MOLDED the Cavaliers into a playoff squad which is ultimately the best thing a guy can do for a team. But Versatility, Offense, and Leadership are all booked into Lebron's system and to me that beats out anything Dwyane can throw out.
Dude, you have to bolden my quotes or what you are saying, because I can't tell where one thing ends and the other begins. For some reason the quotes and all of that are bugging out, so just use bold marks.Anyway, I am going on vacation starting Saturday to Chi-town/Indiana/Kentucky, which is why I was trying to end the debate last night. Bottom line is both of us have said what we needed to say. I feel both of us made some very good points, but because of the people we are and how strongly we feel about the subject, won't back down.But there are 2 things I was able to read from your posts that I want to acknowledge:1) They wanted Shaq to do scoring, and stop everyone else, including Wade. Even though Shaq didn't do as well as he did in NBA Finals where they ended up losing, Wade blew up, which Pistons tried to prevent and surprised the hell out of them. Kobe didn't do that, and while Wade played fantastic in 2004-2005 playoffs and they should have won if not for his injury, he played even better this year and got job done. He knew when to take over, and when to step back and let teammates (Shaq and players like Walker who came up big) do the scoring. Unfortunately for Bron he didn't have the choice of stepping back and letting teammates do the work, but what urkes me about his series vs Detroit is his numbers outside of 2) I agree what Bron has done with cavs has been incredible....but he hasn't been the only factor, and don't make it seem like he is. During regular season Z has played great every year he has been with bron, Gooden has been solid, Hughes who while he was hurt still gave very solid numbers in season, you got decent role players and mix of young/veterans in Snow, Marshall, AV, Damon Jones, etc... They got a solid team and foundation there, and I never once questioned Bron's abilty to play amazing basketball and make teammates better.....BUT as good as his leadership has been, Wade has time and time again put team on his back when team is down or staggering and put on amazing performances and hit clutch shots, and even when team wasn't staggering did it with Shaq or without Shaq (in playoffs rookie season, in playoffs against Wizards and Detroit, in playoffs this year against Detroit and especially Finals, his 17 point and GW vs Detroit in season, his other GW's in season, etc..) and not to mention he has probably the only statline in the whole NBA that is truly comparable to Bron's. He is without question best player on team, floor general and gives team the spark that ignites their play. That to me is as good as leadership as what Bron does, if not better.It's been a very good debate, we both made good points, and there is one thing neither of us can question: The NBA has some AMAZING young talent, specifically the 2003 draft class. Did you see today's game vs PR? DAMN!EDIT: Good job editiing those quotes, but you honestly think AI is a better scorer than Bron?!? Wow... And Wade can be floor leader without being main playmaker. Shaq was floor general in LA and first year in Miami, directing and demanding what players do, give him ball, etc.. Wade was that player this past year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Aug 4 2006, 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, you have to bolden my quotes or what you are saying, because I can't tell where one thing ends and the other begins. For some reason the quotes and all of that are bugging out, so just use bold marks.Anyway, I am going on vacation starting Saturday to Chi-town/Indiana/Kentucky, which is why I was trying to end the debate last night. Bottom line is both of us have said what we needed to say. I feel both of us made some very good points, but because of the people we are and how strongly we feel about the subject, won't back down.But there are 2 things I was able to read from your posts that I want to acknowledge:1) They wanted Shaq to do scoring, and stop everyone else, including Wade. Even though Shaq didn't do as well as he did in NBA Finals where they ended up losing, Wade blew up, which Pistons tried to prevent and surprised the hell out of them. Kobe didn't do that, and while Wade played fantastic in 2004-2005 playoffs and they should have won if not for his injury, he played even better this year and got job done. He knew when to take over, and when to step back and let teammates (Shaq and players like Walker who came up big) do the scoring. Unfortunately for Bron he didn't have the choice of stepping back and letting teammates do the work, but what urkes me about his series vs Detroit is his numbers outside of 2) I agree what Bron has done with cavs has been incredible....but he hasn't been the only factor, and don't make it seem like he is. During regular season Z has played great every year he has been with bron, Gooden has been solid, Hughes who while he was hurt still gave very solid numbers in season, you got decent role players and mix of young/veterans in Snow, Marshall, AV, Damon Jones, etc... They got a solid team and foundation there, and I never once questioned Bron's abilty to play amazing basketball and make teammates better.....BUT as good as his leadership has been, Wade has time and time again put team on his back when team is down or staggering and put on amazing performances and hit clutch shots, and even when team wasn't staggering did it with Shaq or without Shaq (in playoffs rookie season, in playoffs against Wizards and Detroit, in playoffs this year against Detroit and especially Finals, his 17 point and GW vs Detroit in season, his other GW's in season, etc..) and not to mention he has probably the only statline in the whole NBA that is truly comparable to Bron's. He is without question best player on team, floor general and gives team the spark that ignites their play. That to me is as good as leadership as what Bron does, if not better.It's been a very good debate, we both made good points, and there is one thing neither of us can question: The NBA has some AMAZING young talent, specifically the 2003 draft class. Did you see today's game vs PR? DAMN!EDIT: Good job editiing those quotes, but you honestly think AI is a better scorer than Bron?!? Wow... And Wade can be floor leader without being main playmaker. Shaq was floor general in LA and first year in Miami, directing and demanding what players do, give him ball, etc.. Wade was that player this past year.</div>1) Just so you know, it's NOT A SURPRISE when Dwyane blew up, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE TRYING TO PREVENT HIM!!?? Honestly, did you wholly read my post? And what urks me is that you still don't get that Lebron put up just about the same stats as Dwyane (some even better) against a MUCH tougher defense. And why are we speaking strictly on the playoffs? If the regular season were actually brought in the debate would turn to a whole different story 2) Well, he's done in time and time but LeBron is doing it on a DAILY BASIS, considering that he CARRIES HIS TEAM. I admit that Wade HAS stepped it up in the playoffs but in no way has he even carried them, STEPPING UP and CARRYING a team are two totally different definitions and you cannot put them on the same book, Shaq is NOT Dwyane's only legible teammate neither, don't leave out players like Alonzo, Jason, Antoine, etc. etc. etc. and these guys are better than anyone you can throw at LeBron, Zydrunas doesn't cut it, Gooden is too inconsistent and Hughes was injured more than half of the season. These 3 draw AMAZING similarities to the '03 Cavs and look what happened to them. And YES I do, he's more explosive and he possess that "killer instinct" that "LeBron doesn't have"...And just so you know, a FLOOR GENERAL is usually the POINT GUARD, the PLAYMAKER of the team, just like Casssell being the floor general on offense for the Wolves, HE ran that offense thus he was the floor general. LeBron runs this offense and obviously to you Jason/Glove runs the offense, but then again, is it those two, or is it Dwyane?!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Aug 4 2006, 01:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1) Just so you know, it's NOT A SURPRISE when Dwyane blew up, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE TRYING TO PREVENT HIM!!?? Honestly, did you wholly read my post? And what urks me is that you still don't get that Lebron put up just about the same stats as Dwyane (some even better) against a MUCH tougher defense. And why are we speaking strictly on the playoffs? If the regular season were actually brought in the debate would turn to a whole different story 2) Well, he's done in time and time but LeBron is doing it on a DAILY BASIS, considering that he CARRIES HIS TEAM. I admit that Wade HAS stepped it up in the playoffs but in no way has he even carried them, STEPPING UP and CARRYING a team are two totally different definitions and you cannot put them on the same book, Shaq is NOT Dwyane's only legible teammate neither, don't leave out players like Alonzo, Jason, Antoine, etc. etc. etc. and these guys are better than anyone you can throw at LeBron, Zydrunas doesn't cut it, Gooden is too inconsistent and Hughes was injured more than half of the season. These 3 draw AMAZING similarities to the '03 Cavs and look what happened to them. And YES I do, he's more explosive and he possess that "killer instinct" that "LeBron doesn't have"...And just so you know, a FLOOR GENERAL is usually the POINT GUARD, the PLAYMAKER of the team, just like Casssell being the floor general on offense for the Wolves, HE ran that offense thus he was the floor general. LeBron runs this offense and obviously to you Jason/Glove runs the offense, but then again, is it those two, or is it Dwyane?!</div>1) They didn't expect him to play as well as he did considering their philosophy worked the year before (Wade averaged 26PPG on 44% shooting, 5RPG and 4APG), and while he had a few great games, he just didn't play well overall. In 2005-2006 he was much more under control with his scoring, scored more PPG, and was more responsible on offensive end. They threw what they could at Wade, but nothing really stopped him due to improved jumpshot, being a smarter and more mature player, and they couldn't throw quite as much at him due to good shooters on team (note- I said Shaq didn't take much pressure off of Wade, and teammates didn't take much either, but I acknowledged Bron had to face a tougher defense).2) Personally I consider putting team on your back when they are staggering and beaten and putting on one of greatest performances the NBA Finals has ever seen as carrying. Wade DOESN'T do it day in and day out because of the team he is on, he doesn't need to. But when his team needs it he puts on some of the best performances the NBA sees. Carrying team when they need him, especially in a place like the NBA Finals (not only time he has done it, but it is most blatant example). MJ did it for his Bulls, even when they had Scottie, Magic would put team on his back even though he had one of the greatest supporting casts of all time, etc... Because of all that I say Wade has the ability to carry a team just as well as Bron, lead just like LeBron, etc.. 3) They are 2 different type of explosive players. AI may be a faster player, but Bron is stronger and has that amazing vertical leap where when he is on fire, it is impossible to really defend that. He also has a much better FG % (AI had by far his best year in terms of FG %, but was still almost 4% behind Bron, usually he is in lower 40's). Both have inconsistent jumpers (nod to AI, though) and Bron is more effective at driving due to his size and athletic ability. As for being floor general, general is another word for leader. MJ was floor general of Bulls despite never playing PG, Shaq was floor general in LA and not Kobe, etc.. My personal criterea for floor general is demanding ball when you are on fire or team is down and you want to carry/lead team to win, somewhat directing offense, etc... Jason and GP were the PG's and were main ballhandlers/playmakers as Wade moved to more of a SG role this year, but when in 4th quarters or when team was down Wade would take ball and work his magic, whether it be an alley oop to Shaq or a tough jumper. If you have different criterea, fine, but that is personally how I judge a floor general/leader.
1) So he exploded putting up .7 more PPG than last year, .2 more RPG than last year, and 1.5 more APG than last year? Sure, you can argue the percentages but the numbers and average were all consistent with the year before. Face it, they were preparing for Dwyane and that's why he got the defense he did, no surprise, no nothing. ( Oh he didn't? I guess Shaq putting up 20/10 and that inside presence was nothing, I guess all that he needs to take pressure off of another player and help them out would be getting more defenses drawn, but apparently I was just being naive and thinking like a dumbass, well since Shaq didn't draw defenses to him and Dwyane obviously wasn't affected at all by him..)2) You lost your credibility right there. There's no way a player that carries a team for about a week of games has the ability over someone who does it everyday, no way. It also doesn't help when Dwyane was put on a team where he was made into a superstar by the MDE himself, LEBRON did his own, he didn't rely on ANYBODY from the first day in, noone helped him out and he turned a 17-65 team into a contender. That's all you could ever ask for in someone carrying your team.3) But hold on, I thought having that killer instinct boosted your ability as a scorer! You believe Dwyane is a better scorer, correct? Well you've mentioned several times in this thread already that a big part of it all is because of his KILLER INSTINCT and his ABILITY TO TAKE OVER GAMES. Apparently, according to you LeBron is incompetent in that and is "too weak" and you and I both know that Iverson posseses that "killer instinct", and not only does Iverson score more, he has the killer instinct over LeBron! AND he has that clutch ability over LeBron! There's no way to backpedal your way out of this, Nitro..but go on, explain. Read that for me, and then read this: and then this: Hmm...just so you know, DIRECTING OFFENSES and Main Ballhalders/PLAYMAKERS, ALL COME TOGETHER! Seriously, Cassell was NOT the one doing the work when the "team was down", the clutch was his, but when the team is down and "carrying" the team OBVIOUSLY was Garnett's job in the role, and in that reply you just basically argued against yourself, Wade the floor general or Jason/Glove? Which one is it, Nitro? Anyways, don't even say Shaq was the floor general, he was the project, but Kobe initiated that triangle offense and was the floor general of that team, and unless you didn't watch the Lakers at all, THEN you'd say something like O'Neal was the floor general..
[quote name='His Greatness' post='131805' date='Aug 4 2006, 05:05 AM']1) So he exploded putting up .7 more PPG than last year, .2 more RPG than last year, and 1.5 more APG than last year? Sure, you can argue the percentages but the numbers and average were all consistent with the year before. Face it, they were preparing for Dwyane and that's why he got the defense he did, no surprise, no nothing. ( Oh he didn't? I guess Shaq putting up 20/10 and that inside presence was nothing, I guess all that he needs to take pressure off of another player and help them out would be getting more defenses drawn, but apparently I was just being naive and thinking like a dumbass, well since Shaq didn't draw defenses to him and Dwyane obviously wasn't affected at all by him..)[/quote]You make it seem like Wade's percentages were just slightly better.....20%!!!!! And through 5 games when he wasn't sick and played the whole games he was at 29PPG and right near 70%! 20% isn huge difference, that is going from the league's best FT shooter in Steve Nash to an average 70% FT shooter.Of course they were preparing for Dwyane and wanted to prvent him like they did the previous year and they did with Kobe, but this year it didn't work. No one made Wade into a superstar but himself. Wade has been doing what he does since college. Did Shaq in the 1st year make Wade's job much easier? Oh yes. Beofre the season started I had LeBron voer Wade, and thought it was ridiculous they were even being mentioned in same breath due to Bron's stats being better and him having Shaq. I find myself, almost a year since that statement, on the other side. Wade had to deal with Shaq out for quite a number of games, he wasn't even best center in league this year which was what expectations for him were, the "MDE" didn't show up like he had done in past in playoffs, and in many situations Wade was left to lead team. He performed like few others. I don't care if Wade doesn't have to do it day in or day out, or Bron has had to be leader from day one, what Wade does when he is relied on to put team on shoulders has been almost unmatched. Bron has done an INCREDIBLE job as well, and in terms of only having one true standout player he has done best job carrying a team since AI when he took his team to the Finals. But what Wade has done in playoffs, ins eason, etc...while he doesn't need to do it every day, is enough for me to put him as Bron's equal in leadership department. I put killer instinct in department of clutch ability and leadership (both of which AI>Bron, but that is a different subject), but not so much scoring. Is it an attribute? Big time, but when Bron has had far better percentages for career in scoring and more unstoppable on drive and about as consistent with jump shot as AI, I find it hard to put AI over Bron. And for all those scoring titles AI won, he only had one season that matched Bron's number this year (both had 31.4) and he was over 8% worse from field and 4% worse from 3. And I find it hilarious how much you defended LeBron saying he took over games now knocking him saying he doesn't have the killer instinct. Wait, you're comparing Cassell (20/7), an all star who wasn't on the decline, who had championships, and knew how to take games over to Jason Williams (12/5), who came into Miami with a very questionable attitude and practically no history of winning whatsoever and GP (8/3) who was a backup and on huge decline? Cassell did what KG never did, and that was give team leadership. Offensively Cassell did bulk of work (4PPG less but only 1% worse from field, which is pretty astonishing considering he is a PG and KG is superstar big man). He took the big shots, he was playmaker, he demanded ball in crunch time and decided what to do with it then, gave it to KG and knew when to differ, etc.. Even though Wade played SG most of the time, in 4th quarters and when team needed him in crunch, he was directing offense, taking over games, best player on floor, and decided what to do with it then. He sometimes deferred (as seen in the Detroit series) and sometimes take over (Dallas series).Kobe was playmaker, but not floor general. When Shaq wanted ball he got ball. And when Kobe decided that he was gonna be the man, everything went downhill. Shaq, on that team, was the leader, floor general, everything. After what happenned with Kobe I give him a bit more than 50% of the blame, but coming in he had been to Finals, led teams before and knew what it took to win. At that time he was "MDE" and just watching the games you could tell he was hungry for ball when team needed him. And by getting ball in post he would direct offense, making passes out to either Kobe or one of the gunners for shots (he was averaging 3.5APG then, now down to 1.9, and kept going downard as LA team spun downwards).
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='131812' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:37 AM'] You make it seem like Wade's percentages were just slightly better.....20%!!!!! And through 5 games when he wasn't sick and played the whole games he was at 29PPG and right near 70%! 20% isn huge difference, that is going from the league's best FT shooter in Steve Nash to an average 70% FT shooter.Of course they were preparing for Dwyane and wanted to prvent him like they did the previous year and they did with Kobe, but this year it didn't work.[/quote]I didn't imply sh*t, I didn't make it seem like the "percentages weren't better" neither..: :happy0144: Is that really your own argument? His numbers were CONSISTENT with the years before, he shot a better percentage but he barely scored more, everything else was consistent besides his assists and percentages. He shot better...end of story, don't get all on his jock now just because of it. I hope you aren't serious. Shaq MOLDED Dwyane into what he was, JUST like he did with Penny, and JUST like he did with Bryant, just so you know, YOU DONT NEED TO PUT UP 20/10 NUMBERS TO MAKE SOMEONE. And when you make someone's job easier and the play better..guess what, Nitro? THERE GENERALLY BETTER! Wow man, and I could've SWORN that Dwyane's points just skyrocketed when Shaq came, I could've sworn his play in general just skyrocketed when Shaq came, but hey, since the "MDE" didn't play like the "MDE", I guess that all in all disables him from making a superstar what he is. Hell, even the ENCYLOPEDIA claims that O'Neal made Dwyane into what he is! I guess not though! I guess Dwyane just got all of a sudden better and turned into a superstar just because he did and because he "matured"..kind of like Carlos Boozer! Kind of like Boozer when LeBron apparently didn't help him at all! Yeah man, your opinions are the unparalleled! It was all maturity that hit Dwyane! Along with that one season jump, I guess he must've grown a few pubes, too! And yeah man, stepping up in 6 games beats out a man who comes in day in and day out and STEPS UP in every game of his career, but hey, since it's Dwyane, those six playoff of him stepping up surely beats the hell out of LeBron's stepping up and actually carrying his team throughout his whole career...any day! Are you avoiding this season? No scoring title because Kobe just exploded, but 33 PPG surely beats the hell out of LeBron's 31 anyday. And all this percentage bullsh** doesn't work neither..who scored more? Iverson. You might as well say LeBron is better at scoring than Bryant because his percentages ..you don't mark players on who you think is better at shooting, and who's better at this, bottom line, who scores more? And there's the answer to your question, not imaginary attributes. Too early in the morning for ya, man? I WAS COMPARING WHAT YOU SAID TO THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU WOULD SAY, not players individually! And do you even KNOW what bulk means? Please go look it up before you say that SAM did the bulk of the work with the presence of KG. And just so you know, playmaking, directing offense, main ballhandler, ALL GO IN THE SAME DEPARTMENT, so make up your mind, buddy..is it Glove, Jason, or your precious Dwyane? Um no, once again, a floor general is the one that intiates everything, the PLAYMAKER, the one running the offense, AND THAT WAS KOBE, HE inititated the offense, NOT SHAQ. Shaq may have been the superstar scorer (kind of like KG's situation), but he was no floor general, don't get the terms mixed up. And stop making that sh*t up , Shaq never directed a damn offense in his life, it was Bryant that always did the job and any one that even watched Laker basketball should know that. Its all kind of like Magic Johnson as the floor general for the Dream Team...
[quote name='His Greatness' post='131827' date='Aug 4 2006, 06:34 AM']I didn't imply sh*t, I didn't make it seem like the "percentages weren't better" neither..: :happy0144: Is that really your own argument? His numbers were CONSISTENT with the years before, he shot a better percentage but he barely scored more, everything else was consistent besides his assists and percentages. He shot better...end of story, don't get all on his jock now just because of it.[/quote]If he wasn't 20% better from field than year before and compared to Bron, he would have had to take more shots to get his points, thus taking away the flow of the game and away from his teammates who were on fire that round (not including Shaq, 1PPG more isn't on fire). And once again, through 5 games he was 29PPG and near 70% shooting...don't tell me for one second his numbers were consistent, because he was better in this years playoffs, statsheet and impact that doesn't show up on stat sheet. Shaq didn't mold Wade into anything. Wade was the same Wade he is today at Marquette (except now much improved jumpshot), Wade was up near 20PPG in 2003-2004 playoffs, and Wade had his best series of 2004-2005 when Shaq was out for 2 games (to be more specific, had 2 of the 3 best games of playoffs with Shaq out). Shaq made things easier for Wade, but Wade is same player and can get same stats with healthy Shaq, with unhealthy Shaq, or without Shaq period. He has proven he can do all 3.And you must be forgetting that Pistons series buddy when Bron was 5PPG lower, 4% lower in FG % and 6% lower in 3pt percentage, less APG, over 1 TO per game more, shooting 72% from line,and only stat he improved with his rebounding. Sorry, but that isn't stepping up. And the games that they did win were a result of his teammates stepping up and hitting shots. When Bron tried to take over scoring load, he failed and team lost. You must have forgot the dude was 2 for 20 in last 24 seconds with oppertunity to tie/wing ame before he actually hit a GW shot. You must forget the many games where he dissapeared in 2nd half or final quarter. You must have forgot that Cavs were in like 5th place ASW in 2004-2005 and ended up like .5 game behind NJ for last playoff spot. You can't tell me he couldn't pull a Kobe and win at least ONE game for his team by totally taking over? Wade does what he did in finals in regular season, in past playoff series' and past years. Bron did it for one series against the Wizards, and 1 game against the Pistons, that's it. Ohhh...I get it, you're a complete AI homer....got it. OR you have no udnerstanding of what makes a great scorer. And you didn't read my post, I said out of the years he won the scoring title, only one of them was he as good or better than bron in terms of PPG. That means Bron, with the season he just had, would have won each of those scoring titles AI won, so using them isn't too persuasive (hell, in the year he had 31.4PPG he only played 60 games, and I don't believe he would have been eligible to win the scoring title in that case).Unlike AI, Kobe has a lethal jumpshot and has great driving ability. Like Wade, Kobe has more than one totally reliable and consistent way to score, while Bron doesn't have that ability, thus Kobe being the better scorer (to go along with all the scoring records he broke and how he had one of the 10 greatest seasons in terms of PPG ever, all the while at 45% shooter and 35% from 3).If you honestly think 2PPG makes more of a difference than 4% in FG percentage and overall better scorer in LeBron, you are crazy. Sam was playmaker, 2nd best scorer who only averaged 4 less PPG then KG, best outside scorer, and player who took clutch shots. He did bulk of offensive load. KG did his job and scored, but everything else was done by Sam. And I love how you think you know what I would say...priceless. What a great way to debate...Wade was mainly SG while Payton and Jason played PG role, and while they were the PG's for most of the games, Wade would have ball in his hands and would be playmaker, main scorer, and all of it in 4th quarter and/or when team needed him. The offense ran through him even when he wasn't playmaker, and he always made biggest impact. He was best player on floor, playmaker around 50% of the time, playmaker when it counted, put team on his back and carried/led them when they needed him and when he felt it was right time, he deferred when Shaq is feeling it or teammates are on fire, etc... That is a floor general/leader right there.Playmaker doesn't mean floor general. I thought both you and I agreed that KG and Sam shared that role in Minnesota? Oh, backpedalling? My word, I guess I have to right in ALL CAPS and make a dozen smilies and rollie eyes !!!Seriously dude, your arguements and points of view are so skewed and ridiculous it's not even funny. You went from making pretty solid points to spewing sh*t in the span of 2-3 days. Kobe was playmaker of the LA teams, but Shaq dictated what the offense would do. He was 1st option, he demanded when ball be thrown into him, he dictated what the offense (and because he was MDE, what defense) would do. He was the commander on the floor. If you considered KG and Sam to be shared spot as floor generals in Minny, then you have to do same for Shaq and Kobe.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='131838' date='Aug 4 2006, 06:17 AM'] If he wasn't 20% better from field than year before and compared to Bron, he would have had to take more shots to get his points, thus taking away the flow of the game and away from his teammates who were on fire that round (not including Shaq, 1PPG more isn't on fire). And once again, through 5 games he was 29PPG and near 70% shooting...don't tell me for one second his numbers were consistent, because he was better in this years playoffs, statsheet and impact that doesn't show up on stat sheet.[/quote]Who the hell was on fire, you said his teammates sucked and noone stepped up that series, what happened to that? In the end, aside from his percentages, his numbers were consistent. I've already accepted that Dwyane did better (obviously) so what the hell are you arguing, really? The Detroit defense was prepared for Dwyane, thus he got the defense he got. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wow! He's the same Dwyane but he got a J, I guess the J is irrelavant now and it doesn't mean anything in the game when you adapt one! But hey, I guess since he's still that same Wade at Marquette, that same Dwyane in college would be able to put up 27 in the NBA! That same Wade would be able to play with a "killer instinct"! Oh and in the playoffs, Dwyane averaged 18, 2 up from his season average! But hey, I guess scoring 18 in 13 games is no difference at all than putting up 24 in 77 right? And hey, I guess now when a guy plays 2 games, it all defines how well he'd do without a player! Oh and just so you know, putting up 18 PPG isn't anywhere near the same as 24 and 27...And I'm sorry but that is stepping up considering how his teammates were playing. I'm sorry but that is stepping up considering the defense he had to face. I'm sorry but that is stepping up when he has to carry his team with the offensive load and be the only factor out there. And do you know how dumb you sound implying LeBron had nothing to do with the wins? Well, Game 3: LeBron put up a triple double, Game 4: LeBron LED HIS TEAM in scoring, a pair of rebounds and an assist away from a triple double, Game 5: He dished the GW layup. He was the major part of all the wins and proved that you don't only need to take the shot to make a difference. And how is it that when he tried taking over the scoring load they lost, when in fact ALL THE PLAYOFF GAMES HE LED THEM IN SCORING, for christ's sake in Game 7 his teammates went 9/41!!! Seriously, not MJ nor the almighty Dwyane Wade could undermine the defense that he had to play against. And why the hell would you bring up an inconvenient situation here when CLUTCH ABILITY was not even being discussed? Instead, you chose to dodge the points that were being debated and bring up clutch talent which I've already bestowed upon Dwyane... Real class man. And just so you know, because your debating and trying to discredit LeBron, don't make up sh*t like he doesn't take over games and perpetrate as if he only did it six times in his career, I don't even know how in the hell would you even put Game against Detroit as one of them anyways when THEY LOST THE GAME. He's taken over much more games before and saying he did it f*cking 5 times in his outstanding career where he's had to take over games numerous times is ridiculous. No, I'm just not an idiot that creates false claims in order to support my debate with clear bias. I did read the post, just because I don't restate things like you do with my replies doesn't mean I don't acknowledge any thing you wrote. And uh..no, you can't use one's seasons and put it in another year and expect the same results , we're not speaking in generalizations here, buddy. That would be like me saying I'd be the richest person in the 20th century because they were poorer, but you can't speak in hypotheticals because we're not dealing with playing cards and seasons can't be dealt like that, not to mention Iverson THIS YEAR surpassed every one of Lebron's seasons scoring wise. No sh*t? Kobe > AI > LeBron > Wade...and LeBron's J > Dwyane's J, more CONSISTENT TOO. Don't believe me? Here you go statboy: Lebron- http://www.82games.com/0506/05CLE10A.HTMDwyane- http://www.82games.com/0506/05MIA4A.HTM Most of Wade's points come from DRIVING, LeBron's majority comes from jumpshots. I don't give a sh*t about how talented Dwyane is driving neither, who averages more? Exactly. Generalizations don't work here buddy, you don't even know if Dwyane would be consistent enough to hold up those percentages if he did take as many shots as LeBron. James scores more, end of story. You sure he was the 2nd best scorer? Ervin Johnson was on there and he can be the second best scorer when he's putting up 53% . Best outside scorer? I think Fred Hoiberg begs to differ (remember him, the AWESOME role player!). He didn't do the bulk of sh*t neither, it was KG that was the one that took the players back from a deficit, it was KG that was the supposed "floor general" (at least in your terms), it was GARNETT that demanded the ball and the offensive minded player of the Wolves, not Sam. And just so you know, when your going to use BULK, that basically means you're doing the majority and basically carrying the team, Cassell didn't do that. KG has to do it now, and LeBron has to do it. And wtf? You love how I know what you're going to say? What the hell are you talking about? Oh, so he was the floor general for only one period, huh? But then he's the playmaker around 50% of the time when you say Jason and Glove are the main playmakers. Which one is it, Nitro? I know you can type up all this bullsh**, but you can't even pick up on your own glaring contradictions. And there's a difference between being the FLOOR GENERAL and the BEST PLAYER WITH THE MOST IMPACT. According to you, Glove/Jason are the floor generals (or Dwyane, but really it seems like you can't make up your mind) and Dwyane made the most impact. Yeah, since it seems as if you're too incompetent to even remember what I said, I said: KG was the floor general directing the defense, Cassell on the other end." Get it now? Since when can you make plays on offense? HAHAHHAAHAHHAHA :happy0144: :no1: Wait, so Shaq was the floor general ALONG with Kobe Bryant now, huh? What happened to: You have some serious "backpedaling" to do, Nitro. Any Laker fan can easily tell you, Kobe was the floor general on that squad, HE directed the team on the offense and Shaq just performed. He was the intiator of the triangle offense, Shaq was just the target, NOT the damn floor general, so don't get it twisted. And your arguments are so contradictory and incoherent, you talk about me spewing dumb sh*t out but then you're just sparking yourself as the hugest hypocrit on the board. Even any unbiased fan on this board can come in and tell you clearly who's winning and who's on the short end of the stick found contradicting himself at least 5 times in every reply he puts up. You guess which one's which, pal.
it looks like there's been a heated argument here..and i cant be bothered to read all the pages butLebron is better by a hair..he doesnt have much help at all on his team except maybe the brazilian guy and Ilgauskas and he managed to lead them to game 7 against the pistonstheyre pretty even but based on their team support and how far they got..i have to say lebronif he had shaq on his team he would win A lot of ball games
Well His Grratness, I am leaving at 6 to go to mom's tonight, so I want to find some kind of middle ground or some kind of coclusion between our arguement. Personally, as long as you know Bron being better scorer, leader, etc are all extremely debatable and can be argued either way, and that people who pick Wade in those categories have just as much factual pull as Bron does aren't crazy, then I somewhat did my job. Personally, I really don't care if you agree with me or not, you haven't changed my opinion one bit (hell, if anything I feel even stronger about Wade being better player). You brought some good facts to table, brought some decent opinions (although your opinion of what a leader, of carrying a team, of how to be greater scorer, etc... are all very skewed IMO) and overall made a pretty good arguement. You are one of the better debaters on here, but next time slow down with the insults and the sarcasticness, it takes a ton away from a debate when it appears as though you are using those 2 things to prove a point or debate.I think Wade is 3rd best player in league, Bron 5th best (Kobe, TD, Wade, AI, Bron, in that order). I feel that between his fantastic skills and abilities he uses them to maximum abilitity come playoffs time (and regular season time when team needs him), that his leadership skills, while different than Bron's, are just as good and are the reason Miami has a ring right now. Even though he was blessed with a better team, he still had one of most impressive Finals performances ever and has a ring and finals MVP. I cannot put an ASG MVP or leading team to 2nd round by Bron over that, period. Bron did great in the first series, but in 2nd, like the cloud that has been hanging over himself since the first day he came into the league, I questioned his leadership/killer instinct. I feel that considering his teammates didn't show up as well as they should have (they did in 2 of their wins big time, though) he should have taken over scoring load and put on huge games like Wade did in Finals, like Kobe did in game 6 vs Suns, etc... but he didn't. He was 5 PPG lower in PPG and 4% lower in FG %, not to mention lower in APG and much higher in TO's...That leaves me a bit sour about him, along with the countless chokes and not stepping up when it counted during season and throughout career. All of that, how I felt he should step up and all of that, is my opinion, and while I would like to hear your opinion I am so worn out in this debate I am done arguing it. We have argued it to death, and while I am sure we could go another 20 pages, this debate has lost its effectiveness in terms of bringing quality stuff to table and successfully arguing it.Good debate, but I still feel Wade is better player, and you feel bron is better player. I can't believe someone would think Bron is better, and you can;t believe someone would think Wade is better. Agree to disagree, let's end it there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (anypoint @ Aug 4 2006, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why does everyone assume that Lebron and Shaq's ego wouldnt clash?</div>Because Lebron doesnt have that big of an ego at all. What do you think makes him egotistical?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bron did great in the first series, but in 2nd, like the cloud that has been hanging over himself since the first day he came into the league, I questioned his leadership/killer instinct. I feel that considering his teammates didn't show up as well as they should have (they did in 2 of their wins big time, though) he should have taken over scoring load and put on huge games like Wade did in Finals</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And I'm sorry but that is stepping up considering how his teammates were playing. I'm sorry but that is stepping up considering the defense he had to face. I'm sorry but that is stepping up when he has to carry his team with the offensive load and be the only factor out there</div>I'm pretty sure he did, Nitro. That wasn't at all any of his ability being questioned, it was his teammates and look how lackluster they played in the playoffs. Dwyane was playing a Detroit defense that was partially focused on Shaq, Dwyane and the teammates that "caught fire" whilst LeBron's teammates were shitting the whole series and he basically brought the whole scoring load...HE LED HIS TEAM IN POINTS EVERY GAME in the playoffs! I'm sorry, but that's the most you can get to taking the load, especially when he's being played the way he was played. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>along with the countless chokes and not stepping up when it counted during season and throughout career</div>It seems as if all you watched was the playoffs and automatically assumed something up because he didn't hit a gamewinner every game, or he didn't score 50 every game. Wrong, he may never be MJ hitting game winners but he's taken games over numerous times before, considering he has to most of the time, Dwyane does it on and off, here and there, which tells you alot about his consistency. Dwyane had an amazing playoff but those 23 games where he played amazingly doesn't at all surpass what LeBron has done in his career and throughout this whole debate you used the playoffs alone as your only backdoor and seems like you forgot about the model of consistency: The regular season.
I'll just add this to the conversation - LeBron can play better and is capable of putting up better numbers than Wade (though he didn't this past postseason so don't even get started, I know). Wade can WIN better.
Again, subjects we will never agree on there. Has Bron taken over games in his career? Yeah, of course, but it wasn't until the 2nd half of the seaosn that he did it somewhat consistenly. Almsot everything Heat need Wade to hit a GW or take over, he comes up and does it.And regular season is the model of consistency, but it isn't until playoffs show their true colors. Bron played amazing in first series, and IMO just wasn't there in the 2nd series, so his first playoffs still leave a bit of a grey area with me. Wade has been performing great in playoffs since rookie year, and also does it in season (27-7-6 on 50% shootting is nothing to sneeze at, BTW). Because of why I find MJ to be the GOAT, and how I see so much of him in Wade (NOT saying Wade is as good or better than MJ), while Bron is still somewhat of a question, and how stat/skill wise they are very comparable, I just can't find it in me to put Bron over Wade, despite their situations they were put into. It is somewhat unfair to Bron, but even forgetting about the situations, Bron's leadership and ability to take over has always been a question. With wade that has never been question, and aside from maybe Kobe there is no player in league that steps up like Wade does when team needs him. See where I'm coming from?
Uh..JUST SO YOU KNOW, the Game Winners dont equal "taking over games", so you've been seeing it all wrong, just because his clutch shots were terrible doesn't mean he only did it in the "second half" of the season because that's more bullsh** than a farm. Did you not read my post? He WAS THERE and basically was the basic carrying block of the whole team, he averaged the same numbers as Dwyane! And honestly, you're going to say Dwyane was playing amazingly since his rookie season when LeBron's second series alone surpasses any of Wade's series in his rookie season. If you're going to say his rookie season performances in the playoffs were great then you'd have to say the same to SAY THE LEAST for LeBron's detroit series. And his leadership being questionable in terms compared to Dwyane is laughable, he's always been the leader of the team from the moment he hit the court in his 1st game, when Shaq first came the leadership role there was still undecided. YOU EVEN SAID that you didn't expect the Cavs to get past the 2nd round, so DONT USE THAT AGAINST LEBRON as a factor to why his leadership is "questionable". I'm sorry, but I'd take a guy carrying a team every day in his career over a guy on a gifted team with the "MDE" who LEAD his team for about half of the playoffs and people are all riding his jockstrap because of it.
