Early Reports Say the Payroll Butcher Has Claimed Camby, Who is to be a Clipper

when all you get for a one of the better defensive big men in the league is a crappy "10% chance of it being an okay player" 2nd rounder... you're screaming WE'RE CHEAP!! as an ownership IMO.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jul 16 2008, 05:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>when all you get for a one of the better defensive big men in the league is a crappy "10% chance of it being an okay player" 2nd rounder... you're screaming WE'RE CHEAP!! as an ownership IMO.</div>

The owner of the Nuggets is apparently going from one extreme to the other in his funding of the Nuggets, from being well over the payroll cap to being under it. It may be a full crash and burn of the payroll, which automatically puts the team into rebuilding mode, whether rebuilding is intended or not.

If cutting the money itself is the objective and the plan, and the rebuilding is an accident, then this is about the worst thing any basketball franchise could possibly do: a sudden, unplanned, out of the blue rebuilding, with much of the public unaware that a rebuilding is underway, and possibly parts of the front office and coaching staffs unaware that a rebuilding is underway by default.

But how could a team possibly do a rebuilding correctly if some, most, or all of the management is not aware that this is a full rebuilding situation? They couldn't. You can't do any project correctly if you don't even know that you are involved in that project. At least Oklahoma City knows they are in rebuilding!

A rebuilding that has not been anticipated and planned is a rebuilding that has a much highly likelihood of failing than a planned rebuilding. Success of any Nuggets rebuilding is even more unlikely given that Karl is well known for being stingy toward and biased against younger players, who are obviously crucial in any rebuilding.

If my description of the situation here is even half right, then this 2008 off season is an unmitigated disaster for the Nuggets franchise and will lay them low for an unknown number of years.

 

but a 2nd rounder for Camby?
that can't be the best offer available even if they are in rebuilding mode, they have to get something better than that.
heck even a first rounder from the Spurs would have made more sense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 17 2008, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm....

Denver has been under Luxury Tax pressure for a few seasons; since they signed Nene, basically. It's not surprising they dumped a big contract when they had the chance.

From management's POV, Camby was playing on borrowed time, and Nene has to be the future. They've experimented with two guys on the floor who could lead the league in scoring, and with Camby (not getting any younger) didn't win.

The bigger issue, as I see it, is AI isn't getting any younger, either.</div>

No one is going to begrudge Mr. Kroenke's right to stop paying the luxury tax, but everyone is eligible, to say the least, to criticize dumping a player of Marcus Camby's caliber.

It is ridiculous to say that the Nuggets could not have gotten more for Camby. They could have traded their 2008 pick (#20 in the draft I think) and Camby for a higher draft pick center, as any one of several dozen possible better scenarios. That way, you get a decent center prospect and substantial cap relief at the same time, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater as the Nuggets are actually doing.

Although Nene is 6-11, he is rated a PF; he doesn't have the hands and polished finishing skills to be a true center and may never have them. But nor does he have any kind of outside shot that a good PF is supposed to have.

The Nuggets never really "experimented" with AI, not only because they had one of the least organized offenses in the League, but also because they didn't deviate in the slightest from the way the 76'ers deployed Allen Iverson. In other words, the 76'ers already ran the experiment, and it failed. If you run the same experiment again, it will fail again.

 

It's what they traded Camby for that reaks of cheapness IMO.
They're openly admitting they don't mind being mediocre so long as they're not losing money.
Running a sports franchise like a business is ruining sport IMO.
The first priority of every owner should be winning a championship and THEN making money.
Yes every owner says that is their priority, but a lot of it is lip service IMO.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 17 2008, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 17 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 17 2008, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm....

Denver has been under Luxury Tax pressure for a few seasons; since they signed Nene, basically. It's not surprising they dumped a big contract when they had the chance.

From management's POV, Camby was playing on borrowed time, and Nene has to be the future. They've experimented with two guys on the floor who could lead the league in scoring, and with Camby (not getting any younger) didn't win.

The bigger issue, as I see it, is AI isn't getting any younger, either.</div>

No one is going to begrudge Mr. Kroenke's right to stop paying the luxury tax, but everyone is eligible, to say the least, to criticize dumping a player of Marcus Camby's caliber.

It is ridiculous to say that the Nuggets could not have gotten more for Camby. They could have traded their 2008 pick (#20 in the draft I think) and Camby for a higher draft pick center, as any one of several dozen possible better scenarios. That way, you get a decent center prospect and substantial cap relief at the same time, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater as the Nuggets are actually doing.

Although Nene is 6-11, he is rated a PF; he doesn't have the hands and polished finishing skills to be a true center and may never have them. But nor does he has any kind of outside shot that a good PF is supposed to have.

The Nuggets never really "experimented" with AI, not only because they had one of the least organized offenses in the League, but also because they didn't deviate in the slightest from the way the 76'ers deployed Allen Iverson. In other words, the 76'ers already ran the experiment, and it failed. If you run the same experiment again, it will fail again.
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The economics of a situation with a team above or near LT is you don't want to get "more" for Camby. At best, you want an expiring contract and the player might contribute some minutes. The trade exception is the next best thing; I expect the team to let it expire, saving the Nuggets all of Camby's salary.

AI seemed to me to get slower as the season got toward the end. He's still a terrific player, but he's not the guy you want rely on to carry the team deep into the playoffs. In spite of dumping Camby, the Nuggets still are a much better and deeper team than the 76ers ever were with AI in his prime.

I feel for you. My Bulls basically did the same thing by trading Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown (a guy too old to play well anymore, and an expiring deal). Even with that salary dump, the team is handcuffed to the point it can't sign both Deng and Gordon to deals big enough to keep them and keep them happy.

That's the way it is in the NBA under the CBA.

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Well very simply, if you are all of a sudden running away from the luxury tax like a scared rabbit, you had no business piling up a fat luxury tax in the first place. If you are afraid of fire, stay out of the kitchen.

Is one of the main secrets behind which franchises are run well and which are not in the NBA whether there is consistency over many years relative to how much luxury tax, if any, an owner is comfortable with? Apparently so.

 

People are really over-rating Camby

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 17 2008, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think the Nuggets are running away from the LT like a scared rabbit. I see their moves as rational given the situation. They seemed willing to pay the LT if they could be a real contender, if not champion. Given they paid the LT, acquired AI, paid big bucks to Nene to keep him, paid Camby, paid Melo, etc., they reached a logical end. I don't know that adding any player, except for a small handful, was somehow going to push them over the top.

The point being, why pay the LT and lose when you can not pay the LT and lose? (or should I say, win about the same # of games)</div>

The Nuggets are not allowed to conclude that they reached a logical end, for the following reasons:

1. From a what we officially know perspective, there hasn't been one word, nor one hint of a word, in public, about the Nuggets reaching an end to their big payroll roster adventure. Quite to the contrary, Nuggets management has been consistent in saying that they are still on course to being a contender. Is this a stealth rebuilding or something?
2. From a basketball strategy perspective, the Nuggets could not possibly be at a logical end unless they actually, really, fully deployed Allen Iverson at the PG position, instead of just inserting him in that slot for the playoffs, for grins only.
3. From a performance measure perspective, you can't possibly say that one of the very most talented teams in the NBA has reached a logical end and has to begin rebuilding. Would Boston, Los Angeles, or at least a dozen top NBA franchises be caught dead doing such a thing?
4. From the actual basketball results strategy, the Nuggets won 50 out of 82 games in 2007-08, one of their highest total number of wins ever. Moreover, the gap betwen their offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency in 2007-08 was substantially up from the year prior, and was one of their most positive gaps ever. You are not at the logical dead end when you have just completed your best season in many, many years.

In short, you have to wait until you are actually at the logical dead end until you take drastic action as a result of being at the logical dead end. The Nuggets are acting as if they are paranoid about finding out whether they were about to reach the logical dead end, which is ridiculous.

This is about like a man, suspecting that he is going to die soon, going to the funeral home, jumping in a casket, and telling the funeral director to bury him now!

lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 17 2008, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>People are really over-rating Camby</div>

how so?

he's one of the better big man defenders in the league a top notch rebounder and shot blocker who doesn't take a lot of shots or demand the ball on offense.

He's a good player and worth more than a 2nd rounder for sure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jul 17 2008, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 17 2008, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>People are really over-rating Camby</div>

how so?

he's one of the better big man defenders in the league a top notch rebounder and shot blocker who doesn't take a lot of shots or demand the ball on offense.

He's a good player and worth more than a 2nd rounder for sure.
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1) He is a piss poor man defender

2) He does demand a certain number of shots / touches per game or he pouts

3) He doesn't rotate properly on defense because he wants to get the block. While that racks up some impressive block numbers, it truly hurts the Nuggets poor defense more than it helps it because it always leaves a shooter open on the perimeter.

4) He steals rebounds from teammates by pushing them out of the way

5) He is playing on borrowed time after two seasons of health

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 17 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2. From a basketball strategy perspective, the Nuggets could not possibly be at a logical end unless they actually, really, fully deployed Allen Iverson at the PG position, instead of just inserting him in that slot for the playoffs, for grins only.</div>

Nothing will make the Nuggets worse quicker than playing AI major minutes at PG

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>AI can play a damn good point if they need him to can't he?


NO!

AI is a crappy PG on a team with another major scoring threat</div>

AI can play pg well, and i would rather start him there with smith than have carter in ever. Carter basically is AI without ANY offensive skills or talent. Hes not a good passer, he just does it because thats what he gets paid to do. I think this year we'll see a lot more of AI at the point and more of Atkins off the bench and less of AC. IMO trading away camby is going to make the nuggets try a lot of different things and lineups on the court, and getting a bigger lineup with AI at pg makes tons of sense.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know that adding any player, except for a small handful, was somehow going to push them over the top.</div>

Maybe Artest? but who cares, you're right. This was a team that had all the talent it needed to get a championship, and some. George Karl just doesn't know how to create a winning system given the players he has. And really i wonder if he could figure it out with ANY players, because besides Seattle, has he ever even come close to winning a championship?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Answer_AI03 @ Jul 17 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>AI can play a damn good point if they need him to can't he?


NO!

AI is a crappy PG on a team with another major scoring threat</div>

AI can play pg well, and i would rather start him there with smith than have carter in ever. Carter basically is AI without ANY offensive skills or talent. Hes not a good passer, he just does it because thats what he gets paid to do. I think this year we'll see a lot more of AI at the point and more of Atkins off the bench and less of AC. IMO trading away camby is going to make the nuggets try a lot of different things and lineups on the court, and getting a bigger lineup with AI at pg makes tons of sense.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know that adding any player, except for a small handful, was somehow going to push them over the top.</div>

Maybe Artest? but who cares, you're right. This was a team that had all the talent it needed to get a championship, and some. George Karl just doesn't know how to create a winning system given the players he has. And really i wonder if he could figure it out with ANY players, because besides Seattle, has he ever even come close to winning a championship?
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Answer_A103 my man, I apologize for claiming without really knowing for sure, at the time of his coming from Philadelphia to Denver, that the Nuggets franchise would "take good care of Allen Iverson."

In fact what actually happened was that Iverson was punked, and I am truly sorry.

 

Ya, its pretty disappointing considering the potential that this team had. People can say what they want about what kind of player Iverson is, and how he can't do this or he shoots too much or whatever, but at the end of the day he really does play every game like its his last, and hes a top 5 player in the NBA and one of the greatest of all time. Now, IMO Iverson is a great piece to a championship puzzle, but like all great players there is a certain way to build around them. There is a specific formula needed to build around franchise players and it differs from player to player. The sixers made a couple decent attempts at this, and actually used a structured plan. The Nuggets on the other hand, went out and assembled a group of some of the most talented players in the league, and mashed them altogether and said "GO". The players did nothing wrong, the front office and George Karl are completely to blame. They had no real plan, and just relied on pure talent to carry them, and it did. They won 50 games without having any defensive schemes, and a streetball offense. Thats how good this team was. Now the front office is giving up on a team that they never really gave a good shot to win in the first place.

I'll still watch the Nuggets, and i'll be a fan of AI till i die, but i just don't have faith in them winning it anymore.