What was the name of the site for the NBA that listed links to all the NBA Rumor articles on its main page? It must've been like before Google happened?
At what point do injuries negate someone's claim to an award? What if they miss 1/4 of the games? 1/2 the games? What if they only played in 1/4 of the games but they're amazing in those 20 games?
It depends, how efficient is the player they're being compared against? That's really what it comes down to.
I don't think Anthony Davis missed enough games that it even really alters my opinion of his ROY standing that much. I don't think you even need to factor that into the argument to make a clear-cut case for Lillard as ROY. Davis just straight up didn't have a good of a year as Lillard on the court. I agree that we tend to overrate offense a lot, but in terms of the ROY race, you might be underestimating what it takes to actually come into the league as a rookie, put a team with no bench on your back, and almost lead them to the playoffs, with some record breaking performances along the way. That, to me, is more impressive than Anthony Davis being able to be a force on the helpside on one of the worst teams in the league while making a minimal impact offensively.
The Hornets were a better team defensively with Davis not on the court, this helps Lillard. I feel I need a bit more data before I come to a final decision though. I'm curious to see RAPM.
That makes sense to me. It's not like everyone's just blinded by Lillard's offense to the point that we're shortchanging a great lockdown defender. He's got great length and anticipation, but he was dominated by some of the league's best big's in the one-on-one situations.
I don't think Davis did that bad considering how hard it is for big men to come in and adjust to the game. Guys like Blake Griffin are an anomaly. Most big guys take a year or two to adjust to the fouls and the speed of the game. With that said, Lillard did some things this year that haven't been done since Iverson. His PER is lower than it should be, but a lot of that has to do with shitty teammates. I think Lillard should have averaged closer to 8 assists this season, but it's been pointed out before that his teammates just weren't knocking down shots. Next season he needs to get his assists and steals up. I think that would go a long way to bumping up his PER.
There have been some close ROY races and questionable winners. I'll have to go back and look, but Ron Harper was in a close ROY race with I think Chuck Person if I'm not mistaken. And didn't Mike Miller kinda' win it by default because that rookie class was so weak?
I understand the adjustments that big men have to make, and I'm in no way discounting Davis' future, but if we're talking about Davis' merits as a defender, for the sake of the award, shouldn't he have to be an elite defender in the way that Lillard was an elite offensive player? I saw Lillard tear up the best defensive team in the league a couple of times, with the best defender the league's seen in a while, Tony Allen (imo), and the league's leader in total steals, Mike Conley, guarding him, and the favorite for D-POY, Marc Gasol, waiting for him in the paint. If he can take on the league's best defensive players and dominate them, and straight up make it hard for them to even guard him, then why aren't we holding Davis to the same standard against the league's best offensive players, if we're solely putting him in the ROY discussion on his defensive merits?
I think a lot of Lillard's overall numbers have suffered because of how bad the Blazers have been this year. They're relied so much on him to score and create that his shooting has taken a hit, his minutes are really high, and this long losing streak sure isn't helping his WS. I just think some people want to be devil's advocate to stir shit up, and I'm sure that this guy is only taking this stance to grab attention. His article was horrible. It was poorly written, his thoughts weren't well organized, and it's clear he's just trying to make an argument for arguments sake.
Shit all I know is that he's only put the kind of numbers up the The Big O and Iverson have done as rookies. That's some elite company.
Lillard is the better offensive player, the question is overall for me. Davis has some things going against and for him there. Make no mistake PER is meant to reward high-usage players, so Davis' PER is much more impressive. PER just doesn't do a good job of framing the whole argument.
Glad that you qualified that, because I agree completely with the qualification. PER is a weak statistic that more than anything, doesn't take into consideration players roles, and I don't even think that's something that's a priori, like you alluded to earlier, but rather something that you can make non-statistical, yet actually tangible arguments against, if you're knowledgeable of the player and the game, unlike most of these guys that write for Bleacher Report.
I know this has been mostly rehashed in many threads on S2 but I was overlooking what Lillard had accomplished and I put this list together in about 20m, its pretty damn impressive and highlights just how special this season has been for Lillard. On October 31, 2012, in his NBA debut against the Lakers, Lillard recorded 23 points and 11 assists, joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas as the only players in NBA history with at least 20 points and 10 assists in their NBA debuts. On November 3, 2012, Lillard joined Oscar Robertson in recording 20 or more points and more than seven assists in his first three rookie season games Damian Lillard became the second player in Trail Blazers franchise history to score 1,500 points and dish out 500 assists in a single season, joining Clyde Drexler who did it twice (1986-87, 91-92). Lillard is also the third rookie ever to reach those numbers in a season and the first rookie since Allen Iverson in 1996-97 with the 76ers. Both of the previous players went on to win the rookie of the year. Lillard is the only player in NBA history to score 900-plus points and make 100-plus 3-pointers in his first 50 career games. became the first NBA player to record 1,000 points and 300 assists in his first 55 career games since LeBron James did it (2003-04) Lillard is the fastest player to 1,200 points and 400 assists (64 games) since Allen Iverson in 1996-97 Feburary 14th Damian Lillard recorded his 25th game this season with at least 20 points Tuesday against the Heat. No other rookie has more than 8 such games this season. Damien Lillard Won the Taco Bell Skills challenge Lillard broke the rookie 3 point record and has tied the Blazers all time 3's record at 181 with 2 games left to play Damian Lillard is first NBA rookie to ever record 35 points, nine assists and no turnovers since turnovers became a stat in 1978-79 (Elias). Rookie of the month for November, December, January, Febuary, March Lillard is 14th in the NBA in scoring at 19 a game. Only 4 rookies have ever averaged what Lillard is averaging (19pts 6.5 assists http://bkref.com/tiny/xZM1P ) and thats Damon stoudamrie/Oscar robertson/Allen Iverson/Damien Lillard
Repped. I was wanting to post something similar to this but I was too lazy to go find all his achievements this season. Oh, but Anthony Davis is the superior offensive player ROFL
Repped as well... agreed 100%. Can we put some blame on ESPN as well, for making this one of their front page NBA stories? It's the kind of sensationalist journalism that I'd expect from TMZ or some hack media outlet. I really think they have too much of a monopoly on not only sports media but also the public opinion which that sort of responsibility entails. Not to go too far off topic, but just look at the Mike Rice firing, or similar situations. Their journalists don't do the investigative work, but when it reaches public attention, they monopolize the subject, have everyone on Around the Horn, PTI, Mike and Mike, and every one of their shows calling for not only a coach's firing, an AD's firing, but also a university President's firing. I have to give props to Chris Christie for having Dr. Barchi's back. Just because Bill Plaschke, Mike Greenberg, and co. decided that this very accomplished, great, successful college President that has taken the university to new heights for what it should be, as a university, all of a sudden the public opinion is that he has to go. This is a very powerful media entity, and yet they let shit like this hit the frontpage, just to pander for attention.
Well, considering most of their "experts" picked Davis at the beginning of the season, I'm sure they're more than willing to put up someone's opinion that Davis still deserves the trophy.
If the motive were to save the asses of 99% of the writers that predicted Davis (which was not really a bad pick), wouldn't the angle be to run stories about how Lillard has defied expectations from HS to college to the pro's, and is the clear ROY, despite all odds? Instead, they go with a story that's going to get people arguing and bitching... that's just sensationalist journalism.
