<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Playing the Sam Mitchell-coached Toronto Raptors should be considered a performance enhancer.</div>People always make this excuse, but lets look at this for a minute. Prior to his offensive explosion, the Lakers were getting pounded and down by 15. When he exploded for 55 in the second half, outscoring the Raps that half mind you, they beat them about that. And beyond that, it's pro freakin' team. No professional team, regardless of how good or poor your defense is should be giving up 81 points to one person. Not to mention this, but had he not gotten pulled against Dallas, he could have easily went for 80 there. As for this argument, I really have a hard time thinking of a reason why Kobe isn't the best player in the league. Of all the people that have been mentioned (Dirk, Nash, Duncan, LB, DWade), only one of them is real legit defender, and that's Duncan. Kobe does have it all. He's got the fundamentals down. He is a good passer when he needs to be. He knows how to take over a game better than anyone in the league. He plays great defense (note his multiple appearances on the All NBA Defense squads). There is not a single hole in his offensive game, outside of the occasional reluctancy to NOT take the shot. And beyond all of this, he's clutch. He makes 'em when they count. People like LB and Wade aren't nearly as good on the defensive end and their offensive game isn't nearly as refined. Neither of them, especially Wade, have a consistent outside jumper like Kobe. They both rely on their ability to get to the hoop, whereas Kobe doesn't have to. Nash, I don't know how you can make an argument for him. In my eyes, it's the system that makes him so good. They run and run and run some more, which allows him to rack up the assists. Even in Dallas, when they were a high scoring team, he wasn't racking up nearly as many. So, I'll give some credit to Nash, but I'd say at least 65% of his success is the system. Beyond this, he doesn't know what the word defense is, nor will he ever. In my eyes, in order to be the best, you have to have a complete game, and he has as an obvious glaring hole in his.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CLos:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron might get 40 on them, Wade might get 50, Carmelo might get 40, but none of these players will ever get 81pts though. That's the difference between them. It doesn't matter that it was against Toronto. What does that have to do with it?</div> I was joking, man. EDIT: Same to you, Moo. I've never doubted Kobe being the top guard in the league. I'm just a depressed Raptors fan. lol.
<div class="quote_poster">CLos Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Should LeBron be ranked first? Sure his avgs. are amazing, but what makes him first? I mean other players are capable of his stats.</div> They are? such as? Lebron puts up amazing stats because he is the most talented player in the NBA. Stats aren't everything though and really his impact on the game means more to me and Lebron's impact is as high as anyone's. Honestly Kobe is still a high quailty player but hasn't looked the same yet since his surgery. Maybe he needs time but as of now his game isn't quite up to the standard he needs to be to be considered anywhere near the best. As for Kobe's defence and thats why he is better than Lebron and Wade e.t.c...I just don't see It. I have never really been impressed by Kobe's defence. It's a little bit above average at best. Certainly not that much better than Wade's. It's soild but it has always been overrated. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">either of them, especially Wade, have a consistent outside jumper like Kobe. They both rely on their ability to get to the hoop, whereas Kobe doesn't have to.</div> Kobe hasn't had a consistant jumper really since the 02/03 season. His outside shooting is a little overrated. Wade and Lebron both have a better mid-range game than Kobe has. Lebron in terms of this year and to end last year has proven he is a more consistant outside threat than Kobe is. Kobe's outside shooting has really dipped quite badly the past several years. He has become more of a mid-range player.
I don't see how Kobe's outside shooting has dipped. He actually had a career year last year shooting from the arc. He hit 180 treys while making 35%, which isn't at all horrible. His overall shooting percentage was also at .450, which was his best since the '02-'03 season. Aside all this, his range is just crazy at times. His range is pretty close to unprecedented in today's NBA. And I still don't buy Wade's midrange game. He's still highly inconsistent when it comes to his jumper in my book. Teams still beg him to shoot that instead of going to the hoop, and when he does have to rely on it, he doesn't do well. Note his games against Chicago. They do a good job of forcing him to shoot the jumper and he never has a good game against them because of that. That's also what Dallas was doing the first couple games of the Finals. They forced him outside of his comfort zone and made him shoot jumpers. If you can do that, he doesn't typically do well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Teams still beg him to shoot that instead of going to the hoop, and when he does have to rely on it, he doesn't do well</div> We did that last year and he killed us which ended our NBA title hopes. So honestly I don't buy that Wade's mid-range game isn't anything but very good. Everytime he is given a jump shot he is normally very consistant. Really Wade's shooting % from three this year is close to Kobe's from last year. Obviously though the amount of shots per game will be abit different as obviously Wade doesn't settle for many threes. Although he is at least hitting some this year which makes even tougher to guard. Wade does make his shots when It counts too as the playoffs proved.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He knows how to take over a game better than anyone in the league</div> BS....I can make an argument for A LOT of superstars who can take over a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People like LB and Wade aren't nearly as good on the defensive end and their offensive game isn't nearly as refined. Neither of them, especially Wade, have a consistent outside jumper like Kobe. They both rely on their ability to get to the hoop, whereas Kobe doesn't have to.</div> more BS.....there are parts to both Bron and Wade's offensive game that I think are much better than Kobe's....Wade's midrange game is just flat out automatic, and I believe both get to the basket better than Kobe....and when it comes to long range, Bron is just as good if not better than Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">BS....I can make an argument for A LOT of superstars who can take over a game. more BS.....there are parts to both Bron and Wade's offensive game that I think are much better than Kobe's....Wade's midrange game is just flat out automatic, and I believe both get to the basket better than Kobe....and when it comes to long range, Bron is just as good if not better than Kobe.</div> Horse raddish. Not a single NBA player or coach would agree with you on any of those counts. Of the three players Kobe has the best mid-court game. I would be willing to concede that, while all three can get to the rim with the best of them, Wade and Lebron are younger and more willing to recklessly go to the basket. Kobe has earned the right to be a little more careful in those situations, but we all know what he can do when he has to. Lebron has an advantage in that realm because of his superior size and strength... but Wade and Kobe make up for that with guile and technique. Long range is where Kobe excels above the three no matter what the stats say. None of us are surprised when Kobe reels off 5 threes in a row. No one is surprised when Kobe pulls up barely a few steps past half-court and bombs a three. No one is surprised when he is the first player in the all-star game to hit a half-court shot. No one is surprised that he can hit a half-court shot with his left hand with alarming regularity. Lebron and Wade do not have that kind of range.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Horse raddish. Not a single NBA player or coach would agree with you on any of those counts. Of the three players Kobe has the best mid-court game. I would be willing to concede that, while all three can get to the rim with the best of them, Wade and Lebron are younger and more willing to recklessly go to the basket. Kobe has earned the right to be a little more careful in those situations, but we all know what he can do when he has to. Lebron has an advantage in that realm because of his superior size and strength... but Wade and Kobe make up for that with guile and technique. </div> Wade's midrange game > Kobe....and the "he's old so he's owned the right to not go to the basket wrecklessly" is horse raddish......Lebron has superior strength and size, BUT he's just as quick/fast (maybe even more) than Kobe or Wade when it comes to getting to the basket....his first step is amazing....and how are you going to say he excells over them at the 3 point line when "stats" (actual proof) show otherwise....3 point accuracy isn't measured by how many you can hit in a row, it's how accurate you are....period.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wade's midrange game > Kobe....and the "he's old so he's owned the right to not go to the basket wrecklessly" is horse raddish......Lebron has superior strength and size, BUT he's just as quick/fast (maybe even more) than Kobe or Wade when it comes to getting to the basket....his first step is amazing....and how are you going to say he excells over them at the 3 point line when "stats" (actual proof) show otherwise....3 point accuracy isn't measured by how many you can hit in a row, it's how accurate you are....period.</div> Hmm. Good points, but i disagree about Lebron's quickness and speed at getting to the line. Open court speed? maybe. But his first step is not as quick as Wade's or Bryant's. However, Lebron's ability to take care of the ball while driving is far superior than both. And when it comes to the 3-point shot, I have to agree with Fiyah that Kobe's range is unmatched compared to the two. Last year, Kobe was forced to bail out the team with his miracle 3's and that really ruined his percentage. Wade's not that great of a 3-point shooter, or consistent with his shot. And Lebron has made huge strides with his shot, but not quite up to par with Kobe yet.
What is Wade's record without Shaq? The Heat went around 4-18 or something similar to that without Shaq last season. Even this season, with Shaq out, the Heat are struggling. The Heat also have overall better individual players than the Lakers, with a combination of youth and experiance. The Lakers only have youth with a couple of exceptions.
<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What is Wade's record without Shaq? The Heat went around 4-18 or something similar to that without Shaq last season. Even this season, with Shaq out, the Heat are struggling. </div> The Heat weren't exactly tearing it up with Shaq in the lineup either. And last season, Wade was far more valuable to the Heat than Shaq. I'm pretty sure that 4-18 record isn't accurate, though I think they were under .500 in those games.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wade's midrange game > Kobe <font color="red">How so? Because you say so? </font> ....and the "he's old so he's owned the right to not go to the basket wrecklessly" is horse raddish <font color="red">Not earned the right... but it would make sense that he not put himself out for the season when he does not have to. The reason Wade and Lebron drive recklessly to the basket is not because they like diving head first into seven foot behemoths.. its because its a much higher % shot for them. Not so for Kobe. He can hit that mid range J with alarming efficiency without having to risk going out for the season. MJ learned that in his later years as well.</font> ......Lebron has superior strength and size, BUT he's just as quick/fast (maybe even more) than Kobe or Wade when it comes to getting to the basket....his first step is amazing.... <font color="red">How so again? Because you say so? Court to court Lebron is faster. First step and quickness of hand? I don't think so.</font> and how are you going to say he excells over them at the 3 point line when "stats" (actual proof) show otherwise....3 point accuracy isn't measured by how many you can hit in a row, it's how accurate you are....period.</div> Ok. So... basically according to your logic... Lebron is also a better three point shooter than Ray Allen because of his superior %. See the flaw in your logic now?
<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What is Wade's record without Shaq? The Heat went around 4-18 or something similar to that without Shaq last season. Even this season, with Shaq out, the Heat are struggling. The Heat also have overall better individual players than the Lakers, with a combination of youth and experiance. The Lakers only have youth with a couple of exceptions.</div> What bothers me is the free pass Wade seems to get from people pointing out how he really can't carry a team without Shaq any more than Kobe or any other player in the league could.
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What bothers me is the free pass Wade seems to get from people pointing out how he really can't carry a team without Shaq any more than Kobe or any other player in the league could.</div> Exactly. Dwyane Wade is one of my favorite players in the league, but I'm 100% certain that if Kobe were in his position, the media would be going all out crazy on how Kobe can't win without Shaq, Kobe needs Shaq, Kobe is nothing without Shaq, and etc. While Dwyane Wade gets a free pass
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. Dwyane Wade is one of my favorite players in the league, but I'm 100% certain that if Kobe were in his position, the media would be going all out crazy on how Kobe can't win without Shaq, Kobe needs Shaq, Kobe is nothing without Shaq, and etc. While Dwyane Wade gets a free pass</div> Oh... not only would the media be having a field day... but the posters on this board would be going crazy as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. Dwyane Wade is one of my favorite players in the league, but I'm 100% certain that if Kobe were in his position, the media would be going all out crazy on how Kobe can't win without Shaq, Kobe needs Shaq, Kobe is nothing without Shaq, and etc. While Dwyane Wade gets a free pass</div> The media did drag Kobe through all of this during the first season without Shaq. To be honest, I really don't want to read anymore articles insinuating players can't win without Shaq. The real reason Kobe and the Lakers didn't win the first season without Shaq, was because of injuries. Prior to those injuries to Kobe and Odom, Lakers were contending for 6th place in the West. But the silver lining, we ended up with Bynum.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The media did drag Kobe through all of this during the first season without Shaq. To be honest, I really don't want to read anymore articles insinuating players can't win without Shaq. The real reason Kobe and the Lakers didn't win the first season without Shaq, was because of injuries. Prior to those injuries to Kobe and Odom, Lakers were contending for 6th place in the West. But the silver lining, we ended up with Bynum.</div> Not only that... but Kobe has pretty much had to play most of his NBA career under that kind if scrutiny and criticism. And it has definately affect him.
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm a Kobe fan but you Kobe-heads are way too in love with the guy. He's a great baller, just leave it at that. Why do you insist that EVERYONE anoint him the best in the league? THere are numerous reasons why people would think Nash, Dwayne, Tim Duncan or even Dirk Nowitzki are a better player than Kobe. here are a few of each, try to read them and gain some PERSPECTIVE: 1) Nash - there are some that believe that you give Nash a Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and he'll give you a WCF team - he simply gets mediocre players to produce somehow - it's not a fluke. 2) Dwayne - both have rings but Kobe had Shaq in his prime. Dwayne has Shaq in his not-so prime. Plus Dwayne has a better sense of when to look for his own shot and when to get teammates involved. 3) Tim Duncan - also has 3 rings - but with different supporting casts - first David Robinson, then Steve Jackson, then Manu 4) Nowitzki - consistency - when he has a good game, the Mavs usually always win; has improved his game every year; unlike Kobe who sometime has those 40-50 point games that result in a L; smart player who makes the pass to the open guy rather than trying to show-off by taking on 3 guys at a time..... My own opinion: Kobe - the best individual player in the league, runner-up: LeBron Nash - the best team player in the league, runner-up: Tim Duncan</div> Yea but I Nash is great but he doesnt play D
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">more BS.....there are parts to both Bron and Wade's offensive game that I think are much better than Kobe's....Wade's midrange game is just flat out automatic, and I believe both get to the basket better than Kobe....and when it comes to long range, Bron is just as good if not better than Kobe.</div>Wade isn't flat out automatic. If you think that because of his FG%, you have to realize that the reason it's so high is because the amount he goes to the hoop. Also, if his jumper was so automatic, why would teams give him that shot as opposed to letting him go to the hoo? His mid-range is far from automatic, though I will say it is still solid. And neither of them get to the hoop better than Kobe, that's crap. Kobe knows how to score at the basket better than pretty much any guard in the league. He doesn't have the strength that Bron or Wade does, so he gets there more creatively. His first step is as explosive as it gets in the league and it allows him to get by pretty much anyone. Beyond that, Kobe knows how to read a defense better than anyone in the NBA. He's able to pick his way through any defense and not just use his strength to get there. And how do you go and say that Bron has a better three ball game? What evidence do you really have? He's never made more than Kobe in a season, and Kobe's career high is about 53 more than Bron's as well. Did I mention that, despite being in the league for 8 more years, Kobe's shooting a higher percentage. So I really don't understand how you can say that he's a better long range shooter. His career percentage is lower and his career high is lower.
