Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Mar 11 2007, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, you are telling me that I dont know what I am talking about? Do you honestly think that its just a coincidence that ALL of the players with amazing stats at the center positon was a long time ago? Look at Kareem. He had great numbers, and he never averaged over 15 rebounds per game, and never got above like low 30's a game. Kareem and Wilt played agaisnt weaker people. Why dont you go look at the average sized center during that era and compare it to when Shaq played. Its not even close. Go look at how many shot attempts per game Kareem took as well and look at how the game was played back then. Shaq is the most dominant force in NBA history, and he did it in an era where he wasnt playing agaisnt 6 foot 8 centers. In fact, he did it where he was getting triple teamed including a small forward who might have been 6 foot 8.</div>Not only are you speculating and do not know what you are talking about, you are lying out of your mouth. Kareem retired in 1989. He had his last title at 1988 and had that 30 and 15 season in 1972. Since you didnt watch the NBA back then, you wouldnt know that Kareem was 100 pounds lighter than Shaq at 225 pounds, weighing as much Tracy Mcrgady and 5 inches taller at 7'2". so he wasnt that big of a center anyways. I also know for a fact that you didnt watch basketball back then, and you also dont have this freaking 'average player size stat' your just speculating. Also like pestilince said, Shaq's era had the worst centers in history, making your case even more non plausible.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time The funny thing is, you are acting like you watched a whole lot of Kareem back then as well. And I hate to break it to you, but for the last 7 years of Kareem's career, he never got 9 rebounds per game, or 24 points....So using that whole "he played in 89" is retarted because he averaged single digit points in that season. He was still 7 foot 2 and had a massive height advantage on so many people in the 70's. If you are honestly disagreeing with that, I dont know what to tell you. If you put Kareem in todays game, he wouldnt be able to do half as well as he did back then. And if you put a guy like Shaq in his era, he would at least do what Kareem did. Shaq is way too strong and way too big to be stopped by any player in NBA history. Even a guy like Bill Russel. And yeah, if you are calling guys like David Robinson, Hakeem Olojuwan, Patrick Ewing, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett a "weak era" then I guess you are right....
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Mar 11 2007, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The funny thing is, you are acting like you watched a whole lot of Kareem back then as well. And I hate to break it to you, but for the last 7 years of Kareem's career, he never got 9 rebounds per game, or 24 points....So using that whole "he played in 89" is retarted because he averaged single digit points in that season. He was still 7 foot 2 and had a massive height advantage on so many people in the 70's. If you are honestly disagreeing with that, I dont know what to tell you. If you put Kareem in todays game, he wouldnt be able to do half as well as he did back then. And if you put a guy like Shaq in his era, he would at least do what Kareem did. Shaq is way too strong and way too big to be stopped by any player in NBA history. Even a guy like Bill Russel. And yeah, if you are calling guys like David Robinson, Hakeem Olojuwan, Patrick Ewing, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett a "weak era" then I guess you are right....</div>Ya thats because for the last 7 years in his career he was Shaq's age and older. O and what do you know? Shaq doesn't average 9 or even 20 points right now. Also about Shaq dominating in that era. I disagree with that statement completely. Back then, players werent asked to come into the NBA at 250 pounds and bulk up to 300, it just wasnt necessary. I dont know the average height or weight of players back then, but Kareem wasnt the only 7 footer I can tell you that. Also, cross half those players off your list, because when the Lakers made their playoff run, Shaq didnt meet Ewing, Garnett, Robinson, or even Olojuwan didnt even play Shaq in the playoffs.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time dude, for what it's worth, players in the '60s were ONE INCH shorter on average. that inch isn't close to as big a difference as shaq's weight makes.And shaq was only the best player in the league for 3-4 years max. Kareem was for a decade, Wilt was for a decade, Jordan was for a decade. How can you say Shaq was the Most Dominant Ever?
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time Not one player in any era could stop Kareem's sky hook. Could be the most unstoppable move ever.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Something-To-Say @ Mar 11 2007, 07:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not one player in any era could stop Kareem's sky hook. Could be the most unstoppable move ever.</div>No Doubt. I agree.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time While Kareems hookshot was unstoppable, everything about Shaq's game was unstoppable....I dont know how anybody can disagree. Just go back and watch games of him. Being a Spurs fan, I watched him torch the Spurs every single time he played us. We would put Duncan and Robinson and whoever else we had to on him, and he couldnt be stopped. He was too big and too good.And Raptorsfan, Shaq also played with Jordan for alot of his career and Jordan is the best player of all time....And if you give me an option to have Jordan or Shaq in their primes on my time, give me Shaq 100 percent of the time. I take Shaq over any player in NBA history on my team.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Mar 11 2007, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While Kareems hookshot was unstoppable, everything about Shaq's game was unstoppable....I dont know how anybody can disagree. Just go back and watch games of him. Being a Spurs fan, I watched him torch the Spurs every single time he played us. We would put Duncan and Robinson and whoever else we had to on him, and he couldnt be stopped. He was too big and too good.And Raptorsfan, Shaq also played with Jordan for alot of his career and Jordan is the best player of all time....And if you give me an option to have Jordan or Shaq in their primes on my time, give me Shaq 100 percent of the time. I take Shaq over any player in NBA history on my team.</div>Wha.....t. I would rather have a prime Wilt in today's era than Shaq. IMO Wilt was more of a dominant force than Shaq was in his prime. Yeah, Wilt played in a league with very few 'big' men but he did play with players like Bill Russel and a young Kareem. Wilt>Shaq.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time Well, that is your opinion and I have shared mine so many times before that its not even funny. And to be honest, I dont even know how you can compare him to a guy that you have never seen play. You dont know what kind of crappy competition he played agaisnt (outside of those few big men), and you have to know that his numbers were boosted considering he was playing in a bad era. Just look at todays players. A guy like Hakeem was one of the most skilled players of all time, especially for a big man. In fact, his footwork and game around the basket was by far the most skilled if you ever watched him play. And if you look at his statistics, they werent anything comparable to Wilt. And if you believe that its because he wasnt as talented or as good as Wilt, then I dont know what to tell you...Because that for sure as hell wasnt the case.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Mar 11 2007, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, that is your opinion and I have shared mine so many times before that its not even funny. And to be honest, I dont even know how you can compare him to a guy that you have never seen play. You dont know what kind of crappy competition he played agaisnt (outside of those few big men), and you have to know that his numbers were boosted considering he was playing in a bad era. Just look at todays players. A guy like Hakeem was one of the most skilled players of all time, especially for a big man. In fact, his footwork and game around the basket was by far the most skilled if you ever watched him play. And if you look at his statistics, they werent anything comparable to Wilt. And if you believe that its because he wasnt as talented or as good as Wilt, then I dont know what to tell you...Because that for sure as hell wasnt the case.</div>Ballerman, I have seen multiple Wilt Chamberlain games on both NBAtv and ESPN Classic. Not to mention all the documentaries I have seen on him to determine how unstoppable he really was.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time Ballerman, why don't you give some evidence to back up some of your erroneous claims. then we can have an actual discussion. Until then it's just you blindly stating shaq's superiority in the same ignorant manner that all Shaq fans do.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time Im not even a Shaq fan. But what I have seen is him dominant whoever he plays. And what I do know is that everyone back in the 60's and 70's had alot better numbers. And I fail to believe it is becasue they are so much better than todays players and players in the 90's. The game is so much more developed now then it was back then, and the competition was much worse in Wilts era. Do you honeslty think that Wilt could do anything close in todays era that he did back then? Or even Bill Russel or Kareem? If you do, you are out of your mind.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Mar 11 2007, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you don't know what you're talking about nor do you have a clue what dominance means. Kareem got 6 MVPs. 6. And he should have gotten 7. Shaq got ONE MVP, which is what he deserved. Shaq never averaged 30 points or 15 rebounds against the worst era for centers in NBA history.Kareem was averaging 34 ppg and 15 rpg against a league so center dominated that, in 1971 there were 5 MVP centers in the league who won MVPs at some point in there career.If you want to talk about being unstoppable, howabout Kareem averaging 40 ppg and 15 rebounds per game in head to head matchups with WILT CHAMBERLAIN, often thought of as one of the greatest defenders as all time.Shaq never averaged that much despite playing in a watered down era (as far as centers go). Not only that, but he got an asswhooping from Hakeem, who swept shaq despite shaq's superior supporting cast.</div>For that Hakeem thing, maybe you should go back and look before you open your mouth and look stupid, Hakeem's team showed up to play and Shaq's team did not show up to play. This is a team game, and sometimes one player can't do it all. Shaq came up with averages of 28 points, and 12.5 rebounds per game that playoffs. Hakeem scored more per game than Shaq did by a little, but Shaq outrebounded him, and played Hakeem back just as rough. So saying he got an asswhooping is just stupid, you have no idea what you are talking about. What hurt Shaq, was Drexler averaging 21 points per game on the series, and the rest of the Rockets showing up to play. I was about 10 years old for that, so I remember watching that series very well. As for centers I would take Shaq over any other player in league history also, that includes any postion. At 7'1 and 325+ pounds he is the most physically impossing player of all time. Wilt, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, none of them could have stopped Shaq in his prime. Hell, Hakeem couldn't stop him when Shaq was a young buck, early in his career still trying to learn the NBA game. When he went head to head with all of those centers like Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutumbo, some good centers many of them good defensive centers he destroyed all of them easily. As for those averages, I don't pay attention to stats from those days, and any smart basketball fan would do the same. Magic Johnson said himself on TNT before he wouldn't do the same thing today, that he would in the past. It's a slower paced game, which makes it harder to get those kind of stats from the past because there are less shots fired, meaning less rebound oppurtunities, which leads to less assists and every other stat you guys want to throw out. What lets me know about that timeframe, is how a 6'9-225 pound person can dominate the league at center. The height don't mean much, it's the weight that means alot in today's game. There is no way on earth a 6'9-225 pound center in Bill Russell could dominate the league in rebounding today, it's not going to happen. At 225 he would get moved out of the paint by Lebron James, and most other small forwards in the league today. That's the type of centers that Wilt and Kareem faced in their careers.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time Carolina Kidd, thankyou. Some people dont understand that the competiton back then was so much weaker than it is today, and that Shaq was way too big and strong to have been stopped by anybody.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Mar 12 2007, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carolina Kidd, thankyou. Some people dont understand that the competiton back then was so much weaker than it is today, and that Shaq was way too big and strong to have been stopped by anybody.</div>lol what are you talking about? Wilt, Bill Walton, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Ewing. Kareem played all of them, and they're all considered greatest centers of all time. Who did shaq play?
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Something-To-Say @ Mar 12 2007, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>lol what are you talking about? Wilt, Bill Walton, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Ewing. Kareem played all of them, and they're all considered greatest centers of all time. Who did shaq play?</div>I don't know if this is meant for a stupid joke, but he played David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwan, and Patrick Ewing during his career also. Along with very good defensive minded centers like Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutumbo, and many people that weighed alot more than they did in Wilt's and Kareem's days when they dominated the game.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (carolina_kid22 @ Mar 12 2007, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know if this is meant for a stupid joke, but he played David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwan, and Patrick Ewing during his career also. Along with very good defensive minded centers like Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutumbo, and many people that weighed alot more than they did in Wilt's and Kareem's days when they dominated the game.</div>And Kareem played Mutombo too. Kareem played 70s 80s and early 90s and dominated every big man. Shaq's 'dominated' some of the same great centers that Kareem has, but Kareem's dominated more. Shaq said himself that Olajuwon was the greatest of all time anyway, so he's going to be ahead of shaq.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time First of all, kareem never played in the 90's. He played in the late 60's, 70's, and half of the time that he played in the 80's, he didnt have very good numbers. And although he played against like 5 good centers, the competition level wasnt as high and the average skilled center wasnt as good. They just werent as big and phsyical back then. The game has progressed so much, and styles are so different. If you put Kareem in todays game, he isnt anywhere close to Shaq or a guy like Hakeem.
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, kareem never played in the 90's. He played in the late 60's, 70's, and half of the time that he played in the 80's, he didnt have very good numbers. And although he played against like 5 good centers, the competition level wasnt as high and the average skilled center wasnt as good. They just werent as big and phsyical back then. The game has progressed so much, and styles are so different. If you put Kareem in todays game, he isnt anywhere close to Shaq or a guy like Hakeem.</div>Kareem did not play against "five good centers". He played against at least 7 MVP centers
Re: ESPN's Top 10 C's of all Time I said "like 5" good centers....I was just throwing a number out there. Dont be retarted and point that kind of pointless sh*t out. Its not necessary.
