I completely agree, although I have christian beliefs. IMO, Muslims, Christians and Jews are all worshipping the same god...theres certain major things (Jesus not being the savior to jews, mohammed not being a prophet to christians and jews etc.)but our religion is from the same roots and groups interpreted certain things different. But I do believe that God works scientificly. Unfortunely, theres not quite a major christion domination for that. Im actually thinking of going to a mosque for the experience and see what I can learn from a different aspect.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jun 15 2007, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I completely agree, although I have christian beliefs. IMO, Muslims, Christians and Jews are all worshipping the same god...theres certain major things (Jesus not being the savior to jews, mohammed not being a prophet to christians and jews etc.)but our religion is from the same roots and groups interpreted certain things different. But I do believe that God works scientificly. Unfortunely, theres not quite a major christion domination for that. Im actually thinking of going to a mosque for the experience and see what I can learn from a different aspect.</div>Well, it would be really hard for the Bible, and Torah to all of a sudden add Muhammad(SAW) to the books, since he and the Quran came afterwards, so I cannot blame them for that.The fact of the matter is, just because you may have some speculation that the original texts of the holy books may have been altered (except the Quran), doesn't mean that if ONE thing was altered from the original text, does not mean that it is not in its a somewhat true form. Micro organisms were the first forms of life on the planet, but where did they come from? Organisms, no matter how simple, do not just appear out of nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l?ckdown @ Jun 15 2007, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, it would be really hard for the Bible, and Torah to all of a sudden add Muhammad(SAW) to the books, since he and the Quran came afterwards, so I cannot blame them for that.The fact of the matter is, just because you may have some speculation that the original texts of the holy books may have been altered (except the Quran), doesn't mean that if ONE thing was altered from the original text, does not mean that it is not in its a somewhat true form. Micro organisms were the first forms of life on the planet, but where did they come from? Organisms, no matter how simple, do not just appear out of nowhere</div>I never said the Koran, Bible or Torah was altered, which I believe the King James Version of the Bible isnt 100% accurate...I do think that people interpreted things different which eventually built into very different beliefs. IMO, you see this between the three mono religions, and even within the religions.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Justice @ Jun 13 2007, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>another edit: I'd also like to know how freaking pretentious humans are. Christians really think that we are SO well designed, which is pretty... interesting to say the least. The mortality rate in many foreign countries is about 1/10 or even 1/5. That only includes babies that are actually born, not miscarriages. A lot of our anatomy is either unnecessary or poorly designed, assuming it was designed. We aren't particularly agile compared to most animals. Our knees are not the most efficient things imaginable. Anyway, most animals can survive, and I guess that's what matters to Christians. However, some of them are downright retarded. If they were designed, well then, heh heh, God has some sense of humor.</div>I really can't agree with that, you can't give a wide accusation against an entire people. People from other countries (Lets say america) will go to another foreign country (Mexico int his case.) They are advised not to drink the water over there, for the bacteria can lead to sickness. However, the locals in that area can drink it, and not be sick at all. The Human body gets used to things, which is a feat in itself. It isn't static in the way it handles things. The Human Body just hasn't been exposed to that kind of bacteria or virus. After awhile, if the person from America chooses to say longer, he or she will be able to consume the water without being sick. Bacteria is different in different parts of the world, and is always changing, hence the new dose of flu vaccines every year. The body can only do so many things with what it has available. Humans don't need to be agile (in the current state of the world). We use other things, that can make the living conditions more suitable and comfortable. That in itself, is being the most adapt to the environment. Animals can't make an air conditioner or vaccine, if they are hot, or sick. Humans can literally alter the environment (with available resources, sadly this is not the case in most parts of the world), using their brains to make things that will help them,I think God has made a very incredible creature, with none like it so far.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l?ckdown @ Jun 15 2007, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really can't agree with that, you can't give a wide accusation against an entire people. People from other countries (Lets say america) will go to another foreign country (Mexico int his case.) They are advised not to drink the water over there, for the bacteria can lead to sickness. However, the locals in that area can drink it, and not be sick at all. The Human body gets used to things, which is a feat in itself. It isn't static in the way it handles things. The Human Body just hasn't been exposed to that kind of bacteria or virus. After awhile, if the person from America chooses to say longer, he or she will be able to consume the water without being sick. Bacteria is different in different parts of the world, and is always changing, hence the new dose of flu vaccines every year. The body can only do so many things with what it has available. Humans don't need to be agile (in the current state of the world). We use other things, that can make the living conditions more suitable and comfortable. That in itself, is being the most adapt to the environment. Animals can't make an air conditioner or vaccine, if they are hot, or sick. Humans can literally alter the environment (with available resources, sadly this is not the case in most parts of the world), using their brains to make things that will help them,I think God has made a very incredible creature, with none like it so far.</div>The reason that I make an accusation like that is because it is an idea that is inherent to Christianity and intelligent design. God creates man in his image. God is perfect. However, man is not. A lot of Christianity is hinged on the principle that man is well-made and he designed this world with purpose and, obviously, intelligence. However, in many anatomical structures, there appears to be no design present. That is my point.Yes, you are pointing out something that actually has to do with evolution. Our bodies do not protect against everything, they just protect against things that we must be protected against. Remember when the Spanish came over to the New World and all the Natives died? Yeah, that was because they didn't have resistance to disease. It's not like the Queen of Spain said, "Haha, we should send over all the guys that are immune to this disease. That would be funny!" They just had resistance as a product of many years of evolution, while the Natives did not. The same thing happens today in Africa with malaria and other diseases.Once again, we seem to be in agreement. You are basically saying that while we do not have the physical capabilities to say, outrun a bear or a cheetah, we do have the intelligence to put them in a cage. I agree with that. We cannot, however, control hurricanes, global warming (not as much as people think, anyway), etc., which could possibly be the end of us. We also still can't control life and death, there's many diseases we can't cure, we can't get a 12 year old through a pregnancy safely, etc. In some respects, we are not wonderful creatures. We struggle to survive. Whether or not you think God is behind it, I suppose that is your decision. I'm not trying to claim that we have to be genetically perfect to live in our world, I'm merely pointing out that we are barely making it by in this world. Perhaps not today, but at some point in time, I do believe that we could have been extinct.You can believe that we are great, incredible creatures, but truly our brain capacity is not that much better than most other primates and even certain animals without a vertebral column. Certainly, you must at least admit that there are humans that are dumber than monkeys or apes. It's not a nice thing to say, but it is true. It makes sense to me that (in a pre-AC/heating world) smart humans would survive while unintelligent humans would die.
So by saying that if we cannot control the weather, that we are not a very advanced creature? Primates are at best as smart as a young child, and those are the gifted ones. They can have some sort of memory, but as you said, we didn't directly evolve from them, so that's besides the point.And no, unless they are mentally retarded or have some injury that makes them less than capacity, I don't think that. IQ does not directly mean intelligence. The intelligent quotient measures cognitive ability, but is very biased on how it measures. The test is only giving out a few types of scenarios and factors. If the testee is not certainly gifted in these questions, they will grade a lower test, even though a person with a higher grade, may not be entirely more intelligent. The average man (usually) has a wider spectrum as to what is intelligence. These tests only grade what is thought of as "intelligence" (problem solving, reasoning) While those are part of intelligence, so is much more. The ability to have a certain character about you, to comprehend all of that you know into one "trait" (charming, rude) is very smart. An ape will show some sorts of character, some will be nice to someone, and another ape will not. That is why the apes and primates are very intelligent, but to even say that a primate is more intelligent than a regular human is just ridiculous IMO.Not being able to cure a disease? I'm sorry but that takes some time as well. The Tuberculosis cases were not stopped by evolution as we are talking about. It was done by the evolution of medicine, done by, you know it, the human brain. It takes many, many,many years for a positive gene in evolution to be widespread (to be immune to diseases), and the recent medical breakthroughs are not short of miraculous. I am not saying we are perfect creatures, if everything was perfect, we wouldn't need to consume food, we would make our own like plants, and could live without air, could fly, and do all sort of stuff we cannot do, (and wish we could).I can see at you getting angry at some crazy, literal Christians, but to say that every person that is religious thinks that the human is perfect is far from the truth. The world isn't perfect, and we aren't as well. However, we are the most advanced species on earth, thus our rise to prominence.
I don't get what you're even arguing about. I never said we should be able to control weather. I'm merely making a point that counters the argument that we basically are made to rule over animals and the world. It is strange that people think that there is a God above us inflicting pain and anguish over a bunch of black people, but I suppose people have the right to think that.I similarly have no idea where you're going with the IQ part. I never made any claim about measuring intelligence by using a test. I merely said that there are people that as intelligent as species which we might consider of "lower intelligence." Like I said, you are one of those who is very pretentious. You base your claims on what you see and not common sense. My point is just that it is conceivable that humans and other primates come from a common ancestor. I don't think that is a ridiculous claim. I never made any claim of a "regular" (whatever that means) human's intelligence being equal or less than another primate's.Tuberculosis was not stopped by evolution, because it is not something that can be stopped by evolution (edit: I should say that it's extremely unlikely, but you get the picture). This isn't an argument of evolution vs. medicine, not to me anyway. I'm not sure why you went on a tangent about that. What makes you think that any medical breakthrough is a miracle, anyway?I never made any claim that EVERY religious person believes that we are perfect beings. I would love to see any quote where I said that. I merely made the point that Christianity (that's one religion) hinges on the idea that we (and animals, ha) are intelligently designed. Instead, I am suggesting that our environment (which under Christianity, would also be created by God) is very hostile and doesn't exactly fit us like a glove. I do think it's acceptable to consider ourselves as a very intelligent species. However, your claim that we are "the most advanced species" is questionable at best. What makes you consider us the most advanced species?
[quote name='Justice']Tuberculosis was not stopped by evolution, because it is not something that can be stopped by evolution (edit: I should say that it's extremely unlikely, but you get the picture). This isn't an argument of evolution vs. medicine, not to me anyway. I'm not sure why you went on a tangent about that. What makes you think that any medical breakthrough is a miracle, anyway?[/quote]What I am trying to say is, how can you not say that we are the most advanced organism on this planet (or that we know of)? Seriously now, what other thing can do what we do. The medicine was just an example of how advanced we are. We are not the fastest or even the strongest organism, yet we still rose to prominence by using our brains. We altered the environment, so that we can become more fit to it. The environment that is more comfortable to a human may not be very beneficial to another organism, thus they have to leave, or try to adapt. Not saying that Humans are the only ones that can adapt, all animals do, but the things that we can change to make it more easier to live does make us the most advanced creature. Being the strongest or the fastest thing on the world does not make you the most advanced, neither does having a combination. Seriously a monkey more advanced?[quote name='Justice']We cannot, however, control hurricanes, global warming (not as much as people think, anyway), etc., which could possibly be the end of us. We also still can't control life and death, there's many diseases we can't cure, we can't get a 12 year old through a pregnancy safely, etc. In some respects, we are not wonderful creatures.[/quote]Why do you think that if we cannot become impeccable to any other thing that threatens our survival, that we are not "wonderful". I went on about the medical cures for that statement. Like I said, it takes time. We are not perfect, like we both are in agreement with. The IQ part was to tell that the tests they do on primates to show their IQ, and even our IQ are not total fact. They are more ballpark estimates. To say that a primate is more intelligent than an average human, is what YOU see, not common sense. You saying that we cannot cure this and that, omg we cant do this yet. What are you trying to achieve for the human race, for them to be perfect?. What in you're eyes makes something "wonderful"? I'm sorry, but being "advanced and wonderful beings" does not make them perfect. I never said that Humans are perfect, nothing will ever be "perfect". You keep on giving these examples about how we are not that great. Why can't you look at all the positive stuff that we have done. sh*t, even the internet is a great advancement. Do you see any other things making computers, and being able to link up with people around the world. I don't know how you are saying that saying we are the most advanced species on Earth is questionable. Tell me this, what do you think is more advanced than us?[quote name='Justice']I never made any claim of a "regular" (whatever that means) human's intelligence being equal or less than another primate's.[/quote]Regular in this sense, is a person who is not mentally retarded and has a brain that is not damaged, thus making them like most people.[quote name='Justice']Certainly, you must at least admit that there are humans that are dumber than monkeys or apes. It's not a nice thing to say, but it is true. It makes sense to me that (in a pre-AC/heating world) smart humans would survive while unintelligent humans would die.[/quote]Yes, mentally retarded humans, can have a lower intelligence, but a regular human compared to a regular healthy primate, the Human will be more intelligent. [quote name='Justice']Like I said, you are one of those who is very pretentious[/quote]lol, trying to get a lil personal attack or something? But seriously, I can see where you are coming from. I never, ever said it was wrong to think that we come from a common ancestor, it's what you think.
