<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AznxBaller:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm human too, so if I was in Ron's position and threw a punch at the guy, don't you think I should be punished? Still, in my opinion its the fan's fault since Artest was acting of out defense.</div> the guy was 25 feet away...ron artest was in no danger of bodily harm (even if he got 10 cups of beer thrown at him) if he was defending himself, he could have walked to the other side of the court. He put himself in harms way by going into the stands, trampling over people, and jumping on some little guy, then having his team follow him, trampling over people. But its not ok for the fans to react to getting pushed and trampled by this premadonna with bad judgement skills.
You guys have to understand what Artest was going through. You are in the s***hole of America, Detroit (or at least close). You have no idea who these people are, or what they can do. Those fans could've been drunk or armed with something. Most of those fans would've attacked Artest, so he was defending himself. You are trapped in Auburn Hills, sorrounded by half-drunk fans that running onto the court. What would you do? Shake their hand? You just had beer thrown on you. Are you going to be happy? You have to understand how Artest was feeling right at the moment. If you can't, you really don't know what was going on.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dc slaughter:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys have to understand what Artest was going through. You are in the s***hole of America, Detroit (or at least close). You have no idea who these people are, or what they can do. Those fans could've been drunk or armed with something. Most of those fans would've attacked Artest, so he was defending himself. You are trapped in Auburn Hills, sorrounded by half-drunk fans that running onto the court. What would you do? Shake their hand? You just had beer thrown on you. Are you going to be happy? You have to understand how Artest was feeling right at the moment. If you can't, you really don't know what was going on.</div> So...wouldn't the smart and safe thing to do, be to stay on the court and not get involved. I mean, if he was really worried about his safety, why would he rush into a crowd to fight?
True, but Artest isn't always smart and safe. But, when you get a beer thrown in your face, do you sit there and take it, or do something? If he didn't do anything, next thing you know, the crowd throws more chairs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dc slaughter:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but Artest isn't always smart and safe. But, when you get a beer thrown in your face, do you sit there and take it, or do something? If he didn't do anything, next thing you know, the crowd throws more chairs.</div> Or the crowd doesn't do anything since they couldn't get Artest riled up. If anything, rushing the crowd will make it worse. Which it did. More beer was thrown and that is when the chair was thrown as well. Rushing the crowd made it worse, not better.
It did make the situation worse when Artest and Jackson rushed the crowd. But they were already riled up. If Artest hadn't made the first move another fan would have started throwing things at all the players. It would have led to the situation anyway.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dc slaughter:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys have to understand what Artest was going through. You are in the s***hole of America, Detroit (or at least close). You have no idea who these people are, or what they can do. Those fans could've been drunk or armed with something. Most of those fans would've attacked Artest, so he was defending himself. You are trapped in Auburn Hills, sorrounded by half-drunk fans that running onto the court. What would you do? Shake their hand? You just had beer thrown on you. Are you going to be happy? You have to understand how Artest was feeling right at the moment. If you can't, you really don't know what was going on.</div> Can you spell L-O-S-E-R?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting StayingOccupied:</div><div class="quote_post">the guy was 25 feet away...ron artest was in no danger of bodily harm (even if he got 10 cups of beer thrown at him) if he was defending himself, he could have walked to the other side of the court. He put himself in harms way by going into the stands, trampling over people, and jumping on some little guy, then having his team follow him, trampling over people. But its not ok for the fans to react to getting pushed and trampled by this premadonna with bad judgement skills.</div> How would he be defending himself by walking to the other side of the court? How do you know there won't be any fans on the other side of the court waiting to throw beer at him? Look, bottom line is, we all AGREE that Ron Artest SHOULD BE PUNISHED. That's the end of that issue. Some people might be disgusted by Artest, others might make him a martyr. That's a whole different issue. Now, the thing that pisses me off is all the people <font color="SlateGray"><font size="1">(edit by Shapecity)</font></font> here that say that Ron should've done this, Ron shouldn't have done that. Of course it's easy to say that behind your little computer and make Ron sound like a total maniac. Fact of the matter is, he's just a normal guy with a short fuse. His reaction may have crossed the line, but who crossed it first? Get it to your head people. There are two types of people in this world: 1. Passive people that take alot of crap from others. These ppl wouldn't have retaliated in that situation, they would run to the center of the court, duck like a little girl, crying, waiting for the security (which apparently wasn't nearly enough there) to calm things down and then play the lame "I'm gonna sue you" game. 2. People that don't take shit from nobody and willing to take matters into their own hands even if it means that there will be a little dent to their checking account. These are the people that act out of true emotions and might not always make the brightest nor the right decisions. In Artest's case? He knows he's in deep shit as soon as he jumped over that table. But you know what he was thinking? Screw that, I ain't taking crap from nobody. You want some $ after I beat the crap out of you? Here I come. With a check in one hand and another fist right to your face. Ron, me, and pretty much every single basketball friends and teammates that I have talked to about this matter fall into category 2. I don't know about the people that fall into the other category. You either don't play basketball at all, don't play in a competitive basketball environment, or just a naturally passive person. Either way, I don't care, just don't go around thinkingyou're a much better person than us cause you're not. And let me re-iterate one more time, I AGREE that Ron should be punished and all that stuff, but while I'm condemning his actions, I also commend him and the rest of his Pacers teammates that stood up for him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AA13:</div><div class="quote_post">Great link Need4Sheed. That shows you not to do stuff you think you can get away with. The look on his face is priceless. I have the picture on my desktop.</div> haha, that'd make a cool wallpaper!
I would suggest that Ron Artest was acting out of character when he DIDN'T react in an agressive manner to the Shove given him by Wallace, granted Wallace is FREAKING huge and you'd have to be nuts to pick a fight with him (although Ron's sanity is questionable LOL). I believe that the fans were the initiators of this conflict, even though players reacted in a way which brings them due punishment (lengthy game suspensions). had it not been for the uncontrolable fans hurlying abuse and all sorts of objects at players, there would obviously be no need for JO, Ron, or Jackson to jump into the stands and persue them. As for the fans walking on to the court, whats up with that ? where was security? IMO security at all games should be a lot tighter than this. Any spectator stepping onto the court for any illegitament reason should be banned from attending games, no excuses. I also believe it is impossible to single out the offenders who throw beer and any other objects at players or officials without sufficient video footage. If this were possible these fans should be banned also. in this particular incident there was enough footage to single out the offenders, and i believe they should be punished also. One thing that i have noticed about your country, and i am starting to notice it more and more here too; everyone wants to take things into their own hands, people will never admit they were in the wrong, they will lie no matter how obvious it is not as they say and they will try to sue the other party involved even though they were in the wrong. Ultimately greed and selfcentredness (spelling??) is to blame.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">So...wouldn't the smart and safe thing to do, be to stay on the court and not get involved. I mean, if he was really worried about his safety, why would he rush into a crowd to fight?</div> Why are you trying to back up the fans when everyone is clear that the fans did wrong? Are you the one who got hit by Artest? or his friend?
Lets take some things into consideration: 1) Wallace was wrong for shoving Artest. (I won't go into the wrongness of Artests foul right now.) 2) Artest wasn't trying to diffuse the situation by sprawling out on the scorers table. He was taunting Wallace. (You can argue this if you want, but Artest's history makes this blatantly clear to me.) 3) Artest got hit with a cup. People are screaming "Where was security!" Hell security didn't even have a chance to react, Artest was up and in the stands before anyone could stop him. Besides, security was on the floor trying to make sure the players there (including a VERY fired up Stephen Jackson) didn't cause any more problems. 4) The cup thrower was an ass and should be fined and banned from games. He was probably a drunken idiot who got all fired up. He didn't start the situation, he escalated it. The biggest problem I have is everyone keeps saying "If he didn't throw the cup, none of this happens." Well no ####! But then look at it this way. If it was another player none of this happens. 5) If you are going to claim self defense and you feared for your life, here are a few things to consider. a. Make sure you actually go after the guy who threw something at you. b. Don't rush into the crowd you fear may hurt you. 6) Stephen Jackson had absolutely NOTHING to do with any of this, yet you find him up in the stands pummeling people at random. He was fired up because of the Pistons and wanted to fight. With all the Pacers that went up into the crowd they still managed to miss the fan that started the whole thing.* 7) The guys who were on the floor had floor seats. With all hell breaking loose around them, they had no place to go. And yes the one guy was probably drunk, which is why he stepped up to Artest. But he stepped up to say "What the hell is your problem man!" Artest rushed in and punched him to. Artest still wasn't defending himself here either, because he threw the first punch. But the guy should have stayed back, like his friend was trying to do... 8) The second guy on the court rushed his friend first, with a look of "What the hell are you doing!" Then pushed Artest back. He wasn't trying to harm Artest, he was trying to seperate him from his friend. Once Artest had backed off he let him go, with no indication that he was going to do anything else... 9) Then Jermaine Oneal runs up and sucker punches the guy. The guy had only tried to seperate 2 people and ends up getting hit by another Pacer that had nothing to do with the altercation. 10) By this point the fans are all frenzied. Well no ###! They have been attacked in their own stadium by the opposing team! No stadium on the planet would stand for that. Think of Raider or Dodger stadium. I am not absolving the fans by any means, but if you can see it from the Players point of view, look at it from the fans. This does not include the guy who threw the chair. While the rest of the people were doing things that were annoying, he did something that could have seriously hurt someone. There was a lot of wrong that went on, but the thing I am sick of is hearing how abused these poor multi-millionaires are. Boo FREAKING Hoo! You got hit with a cup. Go soothe your face with one of your $1000 hand towels. There is NO REASON why a player should ever rush the crowd. Even if someone really tried to hurt you, rushing the crowd only brings you closer to danger! The ones that make me even more sick to my stomach are those that are actually cheering Artest, Jackson and Oneal for not taking #### from those pesky fans that pay their salary. Thug mentality is killing the game. *Yes I know Jim Gray says it's the guy in the blue shirt and offwhite hat. But it isn't. Watch the video again. That guy has his hands at his side when the cup is thrown.
Let's look at it from the fan's perspective too. Artest had commited what most Detroit fans probably regarded as a hard foul against their favorite player when the game was already over. Then he goes lays down on the scorer's table which you have to imagine would really aggravate the fans. One of them, who was probably drunk, sees how Artest is fully exposed and probably really happy with himself, and decides to chuck his drink at him. A stupid, classless thing for him to do, but given the atmosphere and the player can we really be that surprised? Artest snaps, again understandably, and goes after a fan who has a smirk on his face (if I was a Pistons fan and I saw Artest get hit in the face by a drink, I'd probably be smirking too). Then, the guy who threw the cup pulls Artest away (the right thing to do), and another fan throws another drink in Artest's face after what he's done (the wrong thing to do, but again not surprising). THAT fan gets punched square in the face by Steven Jackson. Anyways, my point is that given the atmosphere and the access between players and fans, this event probably shouldn't be too surprising. The crazy thing about it was how it escalated from a cheap foul to a riot, but all the little things which caused it to escalate were in a way understandable and unsurprising by themselves. But when more and more people get involved, it snowballs into a full-out riot. It was very surreal to see it all unfold.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting los:</div><div class="quote_post"> *Yes I know Jim Gray says it's the guy in the blue shirt and offwhite hat. But it isn't. Watch the video again. That guy has his hands at his side when the cup is thrown.</div> You only see the shot of him AFTER the cup is thrown. He could have put his hands at his side after throwing the cup, so Artest doesn't realize that he threw it.
I'm replying to this thread http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27622 where Detroit fans emailed hoopshype.com. That thread is closed, but it's about this incident. Firstly, I think coming from fans of the home team, this is naturally tained by biased. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know if that is how it was perceived from the camera angles, but I was there. And no, I am not excusing the fans that were throwing stuff, but what Ron was doing was plain and simple ? TAUNTING.</div> I can't see it from the video clip, but even if Ron was taunting, that doesn't justify a fan throwing an object at him. If he was taunting, then that is a thing between him and Ben Wallace. The line was crossed when the fan threw the cup of beer onto him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He committed an uncalled- or hard foul with 45 seconds left and the game in the bag.</div> This is probably irrelevant, but that foul really wasn't a hard foul. I've seen Earl Boykins commit harder fouls than that (not that Boykins is weak, but he is small). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In addition, I have no problem with players attempting to remove Ron from the stands, but what Stephen Jackson did was inexcusable</div> Stephen Jackson is probably, in my opinion, the Pacer with the most blame. Ron Artest went into the stands and pushed the fan's head down asking if he was the one who threw it. At no time did Artest hit him. Then a fan threw another cup of beer onto Artest, which prompted Jackson to come in and hit that fan. He was protecting his teammate, but out of all the Pacers, Jackson was probably the most unprovoked one. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for the fans that were punched on the floor in front of the Pacers bench, they were fans that had floor seats. The man did not attack Ron, he heckled. No physical attack, no threat. The guy was all but 5-foot-6. Ron should have just walked away.</div> Even if you have floor seats, that does not give you any more permission to walk onto the court than people with other seats. He hackled but did not threaten Artest? Even if that is true (which I doubt, cause he had his fists raised), there is this thing in law called contributory negligence, where you contribute to your own harm. Now tell me, is heckling at an angry Ron Artest, on his territory, contributing to one's own harm? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The whole thing was appalling. More appalling was the ESPN crew with Stephen A. Smith, Greg Anthony and company. Not a single one placed any blame on the players for what happened.</div> They DID blame the players. They said the players crossed the line which should NEVERＥＶＥＲ be crossed by going into the stands. My view on this is that the fan crossed the line by throwing the beer, and once he crossed that line, there was no other line for Artest to cross.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting los:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually no, I have 5 different views of the brawl and one of them clearly shows it wasn't that guy.</div> Can you point me to this? I want to see it for myself.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Why are you trying to back up the fans when everyone is clear that the fans did wrong? Are you the one who got hit by Artest? or his friend?</div> I know. Its hard to read. But try. For me. I said the fans were to blame. I said that in numerous threads. I also said Artest is too blame. Is it not possible to have more than one at fault? My point was, if he was really worried about his safety, whether or not the fans had weapons, he wouldn't have rushed into the crowd.
Let me find the video again. The original host is down now, so it may take a while. If you have access to the 100MB ESPN clip, move it to about 5:42ish and look in the right corner. His hands never move from his side, and the cup actually comes from over him, like 2 rows up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">I know. Its hard to read. But try. For me. I said the fans were to blame. I said that in numerous threads. I also said Artest is too blame. Is it not possible to have more than one at fault? My point was, if he was really worried about his safety, whether or not the fans had weapons, he wouldn't have rushed into the crowd.</div> Funny how you, of all people, are trying to tell other people to read. Anyways, Artest and the fans are to blame, that's obvious and we all agree on that. The multi-million dollar question here is: Who started it? Who's responsible? Not who's at fault. Everybody's at fault. Everybody's responsible. But who started it? Also, one more thing, come on people let's be real about Artest's "self-defense" argument. That may be true towards the fan that came onto court, but his reactions towards the fan that threw beer at him was NOT self-defense. It was a retaliation. It's obvious, and this is coming from a pro-Artest guy. If you guys are gonna argue, at least argue the right thing, please.
