Fire Van Gundy Thread

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I meant without Tmac, and you knew that.
</div>
Damn straight.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About Rudy, the rockets were underdogs, and if you look at most teams, they have atleast two great players on thier team when they win championships. The rockets just had role players. Rudy was a great coach. I dont know what your concept of good coach is.</div>
Key phrase is at most teams. Under Rudy in their first championship run, Hakeem was a beast defensively and offensively. For crying out loud they had one of the best centers of all time. With him averaging just above 27 points, they had Otis Thorpe averaging a double double as well as 14 points. Behind him, they had a couple more players that scored in double digits. Rudy really wasn't a mark of a great coach. Later on when he had Francis and Mobley, they really wasn't much coaching going on. Right there you've got one star player in Francis and at least a premier guard in Mobley. All they ran were isolation plays and they went straight to the lottery.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think the reason our players aren't hitting their shots has to do with JVG rather than a big coincidence. Our offense is still the worst in the nba. A lot of people struggle with JVG's system. Why do the players have to get the blame. Francis and Mobley did, it wasnt their fault. They couldnt play under JVG's system. You will rarely see someone go out and diss their coach. Even Francis didnt complain about JVG, until he was a magic.</div>
Francis and Mobley's type of play were too wild and uncontrolled for Van Gundy's liking. Thats fine, not everyone fits together. But now, you've got more veterans together so that really shouldn't be a problem. Even Alston looks like he's making an effort to play more within the system. I'm blaming the players because they're the ones missing the wide open shots (except recently) and not Van Gundy. Plus, the guards still have yet to grasp the concept that they should dish it to Yao when he's open until recently against the Bulls.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Another thing, i dont think JVG is knowing how to adapt. I think he could change the gameplan around somemore on the offensive side of the ball. Players are scared to shoot because JVG is strict. He was strict with TMac last year. We sucked, he gave him freedom, Tmac's numbers went up. Like Shapecity said, you can get really creative with Yao.</div>
I'll let you have this one. Actually, I do think he's a bit stubborn at times but that doesn't make him a bad coach. I could also make the argument that because he's flexible, he let McGrady have a lot more freedom. Sometimes, a disciplinary is necessary. I don't know if its necessary in this case, but the results can be seen with last years spurt when everyone found their place in his system.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The new guys arent ball hogs. They are team players. Alston isnt taking many shots with the rockets. Anderson is just stepping up with TMac gone, and also being a spark off the bench. Swift does spread the ball, he is a great offensive player though so he will put up more points. These guys arent negative, i dont see how you an say that or give them the blame. JVG picked these guys and they came here when they had better options.</div>
Alston isn't taking many shots and I actually applaud him for that. Props to him. The main guy I have a problem with his Anderson. Although he has stepped up the past few games, his overall performance has been a big disappointment. Sure he's stepping up while McGrady is gone, but at what price? He's scoring like above 13 points when the main man is gone, but he's jacking up shots and only making a couple of them. If he knows he's having a bad shooting night, he shouldn't continue shooting but rather pass it to someone else. But overall, those three players Shape mentioned have a knack for being a distraction when things go wrong. Look at their track record and you'll figure out why Shape said what he said.

 

here are some coaches too mention IF jvg gets fired: rudy (as u all know it i'm a rudy hard core fan) hugie brown, paul silas, and we could get larry brown knowing that he will soon leave the knicks like he did to detroit...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">here are some coaches too mention IF jvg gets fired: rudy (as u all know it i'm a rudy hard core fan) hugie brown, paul silas, and we could get larry brown knowing that he will soon leave the knicks like he did to detroit...</div>
Just to throw some names out there that I like- Adelman or Hubie. Adelman would be able to utilize Yao in a way that would benefit him the most, at the high post where he can throw out passes to open guys on the perimeter. Hubie's a former coach of the year, enough said.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AznxBaller:</div><div class="quote_post">Damn straight.

Key phrase is at most teams. Under Rudy in their first championship run, Hakeem was a beast defensively and offensively. For crying out loud they had one of the best centers of all time. With him averaging just above 27 points, they had Otis Thorpe averaging a double double as well as 14 points. Behind him, they had a couple more players that scored in double digits. Rudy really wasn't a mark of a great coach. Later on when he had Francis and Mobley, they really wasn't much coaching going on. Right there you've got one star player in Francis and at least a premier guard in Mobley. All they ran were isolation plays and they went straight to the lottery.

Francis and Mobley's type of play were too wild and uncontrolled for Van Gundy's liking. Thats fine, not everyone fits together. But now, you've got more veterans together so that really shouldn't be a problem. Even Alston looks like he's making an effort to play more within the system. I'm blaming the players because they're the ones missing the wide open shots (except recently) and not Van Gundy. Plus, the guards still have yet to grasp the concept that they should dish it to Yao when he's open until recently against the Bulls.

I'll let you have this one. Actually, I do think he's a bit stubborn at times but that doesn't make him a bad coach. I could also make the argument that because he's flexible, he let McGrady have a lot more freedom. Sometimes, a disciplinary is necessary. I don't know if its necessary in this case, but the results can be seen with last years spurt when everyone found their place in his system.

Alston isn't taking many shots and I actually applaud him for that. Props to him. The main guy I have a problem with his Anderson. Although he has stepped up the past few games, his overall performance has been a big disappointment. Sure he's stepping up while McGrady is gone, but at what price? He's scoring like above 13 points when the main man is gone, but he's jacking up shots and only making a couple of them. If he knows he's having a bad shooting night, he shouldn't continue shooting but rather pass it to someone else. But overall, those three players Shape mentioned have a knack for being a distraction when things go wrong. Look at their track record and you'll figure out why Shape said what he said.</div>

Rudy's not going to coach us, so i really dont care. But that was not an impressive team on paper. So what if they had one of the best centers of all time. You think Shaq could lead a team all on his own. You think that Duncan can, cause parker and ginobli are not nobodies. Even MIcheal Jordan, the best player ever, needed Pippen.

JVG has a history of being terrible on offense. Anderson is taking his shots because when nobody on the team is hitting their shots, someone has to keep shooting. Would you rather have Wesley or Barry shoot it, cause both are doing worse than Anderson. His shooting has went up recently. At about 40%, thats what you expect from a gaurd. From what i have seen, he has done a nice job spreading the ball. The gaurds dont really know how to pass the ball into Yao, but he also doesnt know how to take a catch. He makes mistakes and a lot of turnovers. He isnt hitting at a high percentage either. He has been dissapointing so far.

Those three guys arent any excuse so far. They havent been a distraction, and are filling in the offseason whole just right.

 

all they are missing is a player like Eddie Jones

 

totally agree with u. we should fired him last season.

 

Lol........It's funny how a coach can go from being so highly praised to HATED in such a little time. If Tmac had never got injured, you guys would be the biggest Van Gundy fans. Everybody would be in love with the Rockets. I guess injuries have no say in any of this.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Rudy's not going to coach us, so i really dont care. But that was not an impressive team on paper. So what if they had one of the best centers of all time. You think Shaq could lead a team all on his own. You think that Duncan can, cause parker and ginobli are not nobodies. Even MIcheal Jordan, the best player ever, needed Pippen.</div>
I don't care either. I actually do think Shaq could lead a team on his own. As long as he has the right role players alongside of him, it can be done. On the 03-04 Lakers campaign, you could easily see that the entire Pistons defense were swamping him and even triple teaming him at times when he got the ball. That how much coverage he gets, and if that happens, who's to say he can't bring a team to the championships in his prime by just kicking it out to the open role players to knock down shots? Heck he could even make some passes to players cutting to the basket. Its a stretch, but I could argue that Duncan led the team with a bunch of higher tier role players. I'll just throw this out for you. Parker and Ginobili's numbers last year were pretty damn close to role player stats. They both averaged around 16 points per game, which is a bit inflated because they were playing off double teams from Duncan. Compare that to Thorpe and Maxwell, who averaged around 14 points per game. Those numbers are pretty damn close. On paper, the Rockets team wasn't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They had a Ben Wallace type player in Otis Thorpe who would help out extremely on the boards for Hakeem.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
JVG has a history of being terrible on offense. Anderson is taking his shots because when nobody on the team is hitting their shots, someone has to keep shooting. Would you rather have Wesley or Barry shoot it, cause both are doing worse than Anderson. His shooting has went up recently. At about 40%, thats what you expect from a gaurd. From what i have seen, he has done a nice job spreading the ball. The gaurds dont really know how to pass the ball into Yao, but he also doesnt know how to take a catch. He makes mistakes and a lot of turnovers. He isnt hitting at a high percentage either. He has been dissapointing so far.</div>
Last season, it was obvious Van Gundy was already being more flexible on offense. Het let guys run the fast break more and push the ball up a bit more when needed. Personally, I would rather have Yao keep shooting the ball rather than Anderson, wouldn't you? Although Yao's percentage wasn't as high as before, its hard to deny his shots have a higher percentage of going in than Anderson's. You're right, his shooting has went up recently, but my gripe was with his mentality before it went up. He would be going 0-7, 6-17, or 4-14 on some nights. Of course, if he's shooting well, I don't have a problem, but when he doesn't, he needs to pass it to someone and let them have a turn at it. He's below 40%, and 40% itself is pretty bad for a guard. But everyone's shooting bad anyway, the problem is he's taking too much shots. You know why Yao can't catch the balls or makes stupid turnovers? Because the guards try and lob it over him, which puts him out of position, and makes him get backed out to the arc, which obviously, is a much tougher shot for him. Seriously, how can a 7-6 man with big hands have trouble catching a ball thats passed towards his chest?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those three guys arent any excuse so far. They havent been a distraction, and are filling in the offseason whole just right.</div>
So far not much has been seen of Alston since he's been injured and not adjusted to the system. I've said enough about Anderson. Swift has been scoring pretty well, but not grabbing enough boards which is really what we wanted him here for.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AznxBaller:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't care either. I actually do think Shaq could lead a team on his own. As long as he has the right role players alongside of him, it can be done. On the 03-04 Lakers campaign, you could easily see that the entire Pistons defense were swamping him and even triple teaming him at times when he got the ball. That how much coverage he gets, and if that happens, who's to say he can't bring a team to the championships in his prime by just kicking it out to the open role players to knock down shots? Heck he could even make some passes to players cutting to the basket. Its a stretch, but I could argue that Duncan led the team with a bunch of higher tier role players. I'll just throw this out for you. Parker and Ginobili's numbers last year were pretty damn close to role player stats. They both averaged around 16 points per game, which is a bit inflated because they were playing off double teams from Duncan. Compare that to Thorpe and Maxwell, who averaged around 14 points per game. Those numbers are pretty damn close. On paper, the Rockets team wasn't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They had a Ben Wallace type player in Otis Thorpe who would help out extremely on the boards for Hakeem.

Last season, it was obvious Van Gundy was already being more flexible on offense. Het let guys run the fast break more and push the ball up a bit more when needed. Personally, I would rather have Yao keep shooting the ball rather than Anderson, wouldn't you? Although Yao's percentage wasn't as high as before, its hard to deny his shots have a higher percentage of going in than Anderson's. You're right, his shooting has went up recently, but my gripe was with his mentality before it went up. He would be going 0-7, 6-17, or 4-14 on some nights. Of course, if he's shooting well, I don't have a problem, but when he doesn't, he needs to pass it to someone and let them have a turn at it. He's below 40%, and 40% itself is pretty bad for a guard. But everyone's shooting bad anyway, the problem is he's taking too much shots. You know why Yao can't catch the balls or makes stupid turnovers? Because the guards try and lob it over him, which puts him out of position, and makes him get backed out to the arc, which obviously, is a much tougher shot for him. Seriously, how can a 7-6 man with big hands have trouble catching a ball thats passed towards his chest?

So far not much has been seen of Alston since he's been injured and not adjusted to the system. I've said enough about Anderson. Swift has been scoring pretty well, but not grabbing enough boards which is really what we wanted him here for.</div>

The lakers couldnt win with just Shaq. The Heat had all the role players last year, they couldnt get to the title. Pop is a better coach than Rudy, but he had a stronger cast too. Bowen is one of the best defenders ever, and ginobli plays at allstar level. Look at the rockets, we have two of the top ten players in the nba, how good are we. We have yao ming loaded with great role players, we still cant even win one game. From your high standards of a good coach, JVG would go down as horrible. JVG tries to adapt, i will give him that. He doesnt know how though, we werent a fast team or high scoring offense. Why hasnt he adapted yet. We still arent scoring points at all. The pg problem isnt that bad. Wesley, Head, and Anderson know very well how to spread the ball around, even yao is a good passer. They arent used properly though. There were few players that anderson could pass to when he was struggling cause everyone else was too. He had open shots, he took them. I would have been mad if he continued to miss them, but now he is great. Most gaurds do shoot at around 40% and of what i know, maybe none of our gaurds are shooting above 40 percent. Other than Anderson, our gaurds are really shooters. Anderson has a stronger offensive game with his ability to attack the basket. Thats why he takes more shots. Yao and our PF are often unavailable. I am also annoyed with the passes to yao. Why cant JVG do something about it though? Why doesnt he change the gameplan around a bit to help Yao. They do feed Yao the ball a decent amount of times. He gets shut down eventually though and thats why you will see him only play for half a game.

 

When JVG was hired by the Rockets, I said damned.
When the Rockets lost to Mavs with 2-0 road lead, I said please fire JVG.

JVG is the most overrated coach in NBA. JVG got 2 much credit for taking a no. 8 seed knicks to the finals and he got 2 much credit for the Rockets 51 wins last season. For me, JVG is never a championship calibre coach (I rank JVG in the pack of 11-15 for the current coaches).

Here is some of my view on JVG.

1. JVG is always over hyped on his defense. But in my opinion, I think we should look at the differential between the offense (point scored) and defense (point allowed) to define a good coach. For JVG, his team's defense was always say top 5, but his team's offense was always say rock bottom 3 (If anyone interested in real numbers, please go to nba.com to check the numbers, i am speaking the truth.). So the differential between JVG offense and defense is very marginal. That's why JVG is a career .5 coach both in regular season and playoff.

2. If we look at the history of JVG coaching the Knicks, I think its fair to say JVG was coaching a good team with mediocre results. JVG was able to break in the final in a cut short season with a luckY bounce of Allan Houston shoot. But we know at that time the east meant the least. At that time, the Eastern Conference Final champion was always expected to win one game at best if not got sweep in the Final. So, BIG DEAL FOR THAT FINAL EXPERIENCE!?

3. The 1st year when JVG arrived in Houston, the Rockets got only 2 games improvements to get into the playoff. But we should remember the Rockets had great chance to be in playoff in Yao's rookie year if not for Rudy T's absence. Very disappointing season.

4. The 2nd year when T-Mac arrived in Houston, the Rockets started shaky 6-11. JVG got no tricks. It's at that time T-Mac asked JVG to let him take over the offense and JVG let go his way in order to save the season. I believe we should give T-Mac most credit to run the offense for 51 wins season instead JVG and CD got most credit for the roaster makeover and turnaround season.

5. JVG is the only coach the blew 2-0 road win twice in playoff (once as assistant in the Knicks and once as coach of the Rockets). In the Rockets playoff series, it's ugly to watch. Games 3,4,5 was totally winnable. But somehow, little things, lack of motivation, fail to adjust, whatever, led to a blow out final game.
JVG is a coach that can push a player to play hard but never can he motivate a player to bring out his best or another level with his pessimistic behaviour. (Bill Walton said, "u look at JVG, he's the most unhappy man on the court." HOW GOOD IS THAT TO THE PLAYERS).

6. A coach is not just show up in practice and on court, he also has a great part to do with the makeover of the roaster. Look at now what the Rockets is getting, before are ex-Knicks, now is ex-Heat (Rafer Alston), or 30+ veterans, I just dont see he get the vision to build a championship team.

6. I DONT SEE THERE IS ANY TRICKS LEFT IN JVG'S POCKET NOW. IF JVG CAN LEAD A TEAM TO CHAMPIONSHIP, I'LL BE SURPRISED. GOOD LUCK TO YAO & T-MAC TO LEAVE THEIR CAREER IN MEDIOCRE BECOZ OF JVG (A DEADLY COMBO OF YAO AND T-MAC I BELIEVE CAN AVERAGE 50 PTS EASILY UNDER BETTER COACH SUCH AS RICK ADELMAN OR PJ).

 

^^werd.

With TMac out, i thought atleast now people would see how clueless JVG is. At 0-8, if we turn the season around, JVG deserves no credit for it. Its obvious he just sits on his a** and lets TMac run the show.

I wasnt against hiring JVG last season and didnt complain when we started off 6-11 or blew the playoffs. But it has really cleared up for me.

 

Wow you guys give all the blame to JVG.

It may be true that he isn't a Championship Coach, but niether were many other coaches including Rudy T when he won his 2 with Olajuwan running the show.

Come to think of it, coaches are given to much credit (good and bad) in this game. It is only so much they can do. They can't hit the open jumper for someone. I don't blame him at all.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The Rockets have enjoyed a 45 win season and a 51 win season with him. A lot of teams would kill for that type of success, and it's only a matter of time before the Rockets start making some noise in the playoffs. If this team stays healthy, I still think they can win more than 51 games and finish 4th in the West.</div>

JVG 1st season (2003-2004) with the Rockets got 45 wins. But compared Yao's rookie year (2002-2003) with Rudy got sick and absent and the Rockets, lost 7 out 10 in a stretch, the Rockets still got 43 wins. So with the same roaster and 1 more year with Yao, JVG managed to get 45 wins. I dont know if we can say this is improvement (for me, I think its no change or a disappointing season).

JVG 2nd season (2004-2005) with the Rockets got 51 wins. But mostly becoz T-Mac asked JVG to back off and give him the ball after the start 6-11 stretch. So, how many credit should we give to JVG for the results? Any average coach with T-Mac and Yao should get that result.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting igotask8board:</div><div class="quote_post">Come to think of it, coaches are given to much credit (good and bad) in this game. It is only so much they can do. They can't hit the open jumper for someone. I don't blame him at all.</div>

Please tell me dear <font color=""SeaGreen""><font size=""3"">why a team needs a coach with your logic!!!???</font></font>

<font color=""Red"">Please use the edit button in the future instead of double posting- AznxBaller</font>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm still trying to figure out why this team has so many offensive minded players and only one defensive minded one (Dikembe Mutombo). This team is a far cry from the typical JVG team he had in New York. This current team is soft and doesn't have the enforcers on the inside and they physical defenders on the perimeter. Seems very bizzare to have a defensive minded coach surrounded by offensive minded players. I'm not sure what kind of input JVG has in roster moves, but I can't imagine he endorsed a few of the latest off-season moves.</div>

JVG has a say in all of our aquisitions, he chose all the players that we got. This team isnt strrong defensively though. The stats say it, but if you watch this team, they arent. They dont have any great defender, other than deke, and many wholes. The gaurds are slow, no really good rebounder, no real shotblocker, none of that. This is why many teams can actually break through our defenses. ITs not one you can count on a whole game. It only succeeds at the sacrifice of our offense, which is one of the capable of being one of the best in the nba(though its the worst).

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm still trying to figure out why this team has so many offensive minded players and only one defensive minded one (Dikembe Mutombo). This team is a far cry from the typical JVG team he had in New York. This current team is soft and doesn't have the enforcers on the inside and they physical defenders on the perimeter. Seems very bizzare to have a defensive minded coach surrounded by offensive minded players. I'm not sure what kind of input JVG has in roster moves, but I can't imagine he endorsed a few of the latest off-season moves. I still think JVG is one of the better coaches in the league overall. He understands the game and what it takes to win a title. The Rockets have enjoyed a 45 win season and a 51 win season with him. A lot of teams would kill for that type of success, and it's only a matter of time before the Rockets start making some noise in the playoffs. If this team stays healthy, I still think they can win more than 51 games and finish 4th in the West.</div>
You make a good point. With Van Gundy's former affinity for defensive-minded and more overly hard nosed players, it makes you wonder what happened there. His offense has taken a couple years to really jel, and now that they seem to be doing that, he seems content to just ride with that. Then again, he never did win a title with those hard nosed players of his, so maybe he's going from one extreme to the next. ClutchCity made a good point when he said there was no one who could fill those shoes. Not one good overall rebounder or shotblocker. If you look at the team, you clearly see on paper that they should have some presence defensively as well as on the boards, but where are they going wrong?

Juwan Howard has always been a sound interior defender, Stro is supposed to be one of the best, and Yao's sheer size alone should have him owning underneath, especially on the glass, but not so. There is clearly some shortcoming amongst the big boys that seems to be a common thread. I don't know if it's the influence of Patrick Ewing, who was notoriously soft, but it seems to be a coaching thing, because it's in all their heads, not just one or two.

Slow guards hurt your rotations too, so those big men have to play double duty as well, marking their men and keeping a constant vigil on dribble drives, that tends to wear guys down.

With a roster that is clearly stacked in his favor, Van Gundy had best do some impressing, because while I don't think it's worthy of firing him yet, he's not far off.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RockStar:</div><div class="quote_post">

Please tell me dear <font color=""SeaGreen""><font size=""3"">why a team needs a coach with your logic!!!???</font></font>

<font color=""Red"">Please use the edit button in the future instead of double posting- AznxBaller</font></div>


A team needs a coach to coach the team. That was very simple.


But a team doesn't need a coach to help them make open shot that they should normally be hitting anyways. The low FG% is simple, a lot of players don't know how there role here, and take shots they shouldn't put up. Let them build some chem (wow was I wrong about chem) and find there roles. Once they know what they need to do on offense as a unit, what is expected from eachother THAN they will be a serious team with both good O and good D.

I really really really am getting somewhat confused watching this team though. A lot of things (like low rebounds) don't make sense. Yao, Swift, and Howard need to pull at least 25-29 rebounds per game. Deke will get his.

This team has so much potential, but its the simple things that they don't do that seperates them from the Spurs.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting igotask8board:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow you guys give all the blame to JVG.

It may be true that he isn't a Championship Coach, but niether were many other coaches including Rudy T when he won his 2 with Olajuwan running the show.

Come to think of it, coaches are given to much credit (good and bad) in this game. It is only so much they can do. They can't hit the open jumper for someone. I don't blame him at all.</div>

Your original statement clearly implies the coach has no impact or whatsoever on the outcome of the games becoz the coach doesnt play the game. That's why it make people wondering why a team needs a coach.

If the coach have no impact on the games, why the team wont just got some players and let them play?

To me, the coach has everything to do with the outcome of the games. The theory of the coach defense and offense, the rotations in games, the minutes to the players, to motivate the players, so on and so forth... That's why the coaches still get pay millions of dollars.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting igotask8board:</div><div class="quote_post">But a team doesn't need a coach to help them make open shot that they should normally be hitting anyways. The low FG% is simple, a lot of players don't know how there role here, and take shots they shouldn't put up. Let them build some chem (wow was I wrong about chem) and find there roles. Once they know what they need to do on offense as a unit, what is expected from eachother THAN they will be a serious team with both good O and good D.

</div>

Nobody said the coach is reponsible for the shoot to fall.

But I am really confused about your conception of the responsibility and duties of a coach.

 

I am confused to why the hell you want to fire JVG. He isn't to blame for the bad start.

What if T-Mac was not injured and we were 11-4? Would you want to fire him then? I don't think so.