Game Thread GAME# 62: BLAZERS @ RAPTORS - MARCH 1, 2019 - FRIDAY, 5:00 PM, ESPN & NBCSNW

I'm not sure if this is in response to my post about expecting to lose this game. But, my expectations are my own - I don't read/watch national or local sports coverage. My expectations are based purely on what I see when I watch our team play.

 

can you explain to me just how CJ is "elite"?

(and, to be clear, I'm not blaming CJ for the loss last night)

CJ's ranking among the 324 players with at least 500 minutes:

PER: 91st
TS%: 168th
FT rate: 255th
assist rate: 139th
winshare/48: 126th
box plus/minus: 129th
real plus/minus: 108th

I would think that in order to be considered elite, a player should at least rank in the top-20 in at least one broader metric. CJ can't even crack the top-100 in any but PER, and that's the one stat on the list that is cumulative and impacted by minutes played and possessions used.

the only categories CJ ranks in the top-20 are FGA's, salary, and contract

 

21.2 ppg. That was easy.

 

I get it - CJ "isn't efficient" and makes a lot of money. And so people will argue away things like FG% in favor of TS%, or some other metric, to fit their opinion. But, the fact of the matter is, CJ ranks #8 for all SGs in FG%. Yeah yeah, TS% is better - whatever. It's better because it fits your opinion. CJ doesn't draw fouls like Harden and other bitchmade players who would rather play HORSE than basketball. But when it comes to actually shooting the ball (FG%) CJ is a pretty damned good SG.

He's #6 in PPG for SGs and shoots a better percentage than two guys above him

CJ is a flawed player - most players are. But CJ is not even close to our biggest problem.

 

While not top 20 still elite.

 

bingo

 

ad nauseam is the key word.

 

elite definition: a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society

those stats I listed actually gauge ability and quality. You just came up with a number that gauges opportunity, and the raw result of that opportunity.

TS% normalizes between result and opportunity (CJ also ranks 150th in eFG%...behind Aminu). It's not a perfect stat, but none are, but it certainly injects some critical context into that PPG number. And it certainly begins to make the label of elite when applied to CJ questionable. Apparently, Zach Levine is much more elite than CJ as he averages 2.4 more points on 0.1 more shot; Devin Booker averages 3 more points on 0.8 more shots; and both of those guys crush CJ in assist rate

it also raises the question if other players are more "elite" offensively than CJ. Tobias Harris averages 0.1 fewer points on 2.6 fewer shots; Buddy Hield averages 0.2 fewer points on 1.6 fewer shots; LMA 0.3 fewers point on 1.9 fewer shots; Julius Randle 0.8 fewer points on 4.2 fewer shots, Lou Williams 1.4 fewer points on 2.9 fewer shots; John Collins 1.7 fewer points on 4.7 fewer shots

you can not ignore efficiency when you're talking about offense. I would agree that CJ seems fairly good at scoring considering he creates about 52% of his offense on his own. But he simply isn't very efficient, not in shooting or scoring. And considering how much he has the ball in his hands, how much shot clock he burns, and how many possessions he uses, his play-making ability, or rather the lack of, detracts from the overall context of his offensive game. Like I said, if somebody wanted to say he was good on offense, I wouldn't push back against it. I don't really agree, but it's not worth debating at this point in time. But CJ being called "elite" just doesn't withstand any scrutiny IMO,

 

Dude. I can see with my own eyes that CJ is an elite offensive player. My guess is that most b-ball guys see this too.

 

That is all the comment is about. But yeah i can agree with your point. And yes "Ad Nauseum" fits very well.

 

I'll say it, he's an elite NBA scorer, heard it from people who actually have to guard him enough times to know that this is why so many players laugh off analytic guys and fans. Is CJ efficient? no, but the guy can score with the best in the world. In fact, he's one of only 500ish people on the planet who's even in the NBA, and he's one of maybe 60ish guys in the NBA who are actually game planned for every night. So of a very elite group of people, he's also considered elite enough that those group of players focus on stopping him on a nightly basis. Every single opposing coach talks about you gotta stop Dame and CJ, that's literally their game plan.
I've got my issues with CJ and I'm not sure the Dame / CJ combo is championship worthy, but I think it's getting a little crazy how much work is going into trying to say he's bad, when he very clearly isn't, and there isn't a team in the NBA who wouldn't want CJ on their roster. They may not start him depending on who they have but sheesh no one's claiming he's Dame, or KD, or Lebron, or whomever. Everyone knows he's got holes in games. Zach Levine and Devin Booker are guys you bring up because "stats" but I wouldn't trade for either one, they've been in the league for a few years now and their "skills" certainly haven't led to winning, they're number one options too, instead of second or third option.
I get it CJ has issues, we all know he's bad on defense for an NBA player, he doesn't pass well, he really does one thing well which is create his own shot, but that one skill has gotten him pretty far in life...

 

well yeah, obviously...that's what we are debating. Your eyes say one thing, my eyes says another, and my reasoning says 'elite' depends on more than just simple volume. Efficiency of shooting, scoring, and play-making are significant components of ability and quality, and CJ is only average, at best, in those areas. Lillard is elite on offense, CJ isn't

but obviously, we're not going agree on this so there we are....agree to disagree

where was it I said CJ was "bad"? I'm sorry TBF, that sure looks like a straw-man argument. I think that even most people that want CJ traded don't think he's bad, just that he's generally overrated and specifically overpaid (although you might make an argument that the level of CJ criticism around here means he's probably not overrated)

as far as "there isn't a team in the NBA who wouldn't want CJ on their roster"; I'm not buying that one. I think any team that has a SG comparable to or better than CJ on offense wouldn't want a 28M a year backup, and I count at least a dozen team teams that fit that description. Any team that values perimeter defense and length likely won't want CJ at a near-max salary, and there are a handful of those. And any team that is already at the limit of huge salaries wouldn't want him either. it's the NBA and you can't just ignore a player's cost

sorry if this is coming across as too aggressive but you just seemed to stake out a couple of extreme positions to make your argument

 

Just say you hate McCollum and move on. You argue pretty much everyday bad mouthing a player, coach and or GM. An outsider would likely think you come to this forum to troll the Blazers. I bet others share a similar position. Your shtick has become extremely stale.

 

I dont think he’s here to troll us or the team. All fans have their own opinions and such on certain players. I guess thats how it works. I think you’re right though, its safe to say he doesnt like CJ very much.

 

LOL...that really takes the cake and flattens it to a sub-atomic level with overwhelming self-irony

congratulations, you've entered the

 

When someone spends more time being negative ,especially with a team playing pretty good and once again above expectations, than showing support isn't much of a fan in my book

 

Over the last few years, we’ve had a decent record without Dame. When CJ is the man, he has played very well. Just this year, he had a triple double when Dame was out. CJ is underrated. He would be All Star in East.

 

You’re making the case that some teams are in a cap situation where they cant afford him, thats different then if they’d want him on their team. Like Jimmy Buckets, dont know if I would want that guy for free at this point, and he’s better overall then CJ.

Im good with you disliking CJ thats fine or thinking he’s over paid. You literally said you question if he’s good on offense. So since that is the reason he’s in the NBA you question if he even belongs in the NBA? Just because you didnt say he’s bad verbatum youve been posting just about every negative CJ thing it seems like you could find, to the point where you, “Dont agree” he’s good on offense.

Argue this though if he isnt good on offense then how come literally every teams Coach says their game plan is to stop Dame and CJ. He’s obviously good enough where the best players in the world know they gotta stop him. They arent saying they gotta stop Layman, or Aminu, or Harkless... Seems like what you’re trying to say is he’s over rated when people talk about him like he’s a star (I’d agree). He’s under rated though especially on offense when people talk about him like they dont even think he’s “good”.

I dont think CJ is a star, but he most certainly is good on offense and every time Dames been out and it’s been on CJ to carry them offensively he’s risen to that challenge.

 

For the record Im not a big CJ fan, I know his “numbers” in terms of advanced stats arent that great, and I know his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I mainly just thought the line of, “you dont think he’s good on offense”, is taking it too far. He’s in the NBA solely for offense, other teams know he’s a threat and treat him as one...
I was hoping they’d move him and upgrade the forwards and this summer especially if they lose in the 1st round again, I’ll want them to do it then too.

 

I didn't exactly say that, but I did imply it, and you're right, it was some rhetorical excess....my bad

I'll grant he's good at scoring, which is a big part of offense. I think we'd both agree he's not so good at passing and helping teammates, which is definitely a component of offense, especially for a player that has the ball in his hands as much as he does. I think he has improved on that a bit over the last couple of weeks though. He is bad at defense and that detracts from his offense

I still think he's an awkward fit starting alongside Dame, and Dame is the engine that drives Portland.