Game Thread: Cavs vs. Warriors - 1/20/07

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well Harrington and Murphy is considered a wash of some sorts because you lose one thing and gain another, </div>

Custodian, I'm curious -- from the Warriors perspective, what do you lose in that swap? What does Murphy do better than Harrington?

 

I dont care what the rest of you say, especially you CR2, I love these guys. I am REALLY impressed with Steve Jackson. His attitude is great so far. Lets hope he keeps this up. I cant believe the 4th quarter meltdown, but I attribute that to all of the hacks in the lane that were not called. I think that is why we had so many turnovers. We also did not get any deflections like we did in the first half. It sucks to lose like this. I just cant wait until Baron comes back.

I love the trade. I hated Murphy and I hate Dunleavy. I liked Ike, but he is just a casualty that had to be made for the overall team. This team has real hope whereas before I was fretting every game we walked into, not knowing if we had a chance or if we would get blown out. We should have won tonight...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Thank you.

I'd much rather be talking about Harrington's bad shooting night than Murphy riding the pine again because he SUCKS. Or, Ike riding the pine just because. Nellie had faith in Harrington and that's why he was on the floor. He put up numbers, just not beneficial ones (except the rebounding). But, he made an impact on the game by being in every play. He wasn't the invisible player that Murphy, Dun, and Ike have been (Ike being invisible because he rode the pine).</div>

Once the honeymoon is over, I bet some will complain about Harrington being just as bad as Murphy. AO is right that Murphy doesn't really box out either, but it's hard to imagine him thinking he's worthy of taking that many shots without deferring to somebody else.

As for 3 point shooting % that can change as it did with Murphy going from last year to this year.

One trade can't make everything right and land us this magical big man. Maybe I'm just mad that we never got to see this Biedrins/Ike frontline because we have to do this small ball thing. Maybe as a Warriors fan I should have to lower my expectations of what this club can do and especially hopes for any big man depth. Maybe it is the ultimate Warriors goal to think only in short term and try to at least make it to first round in the nba playoffs before soundly getting wiped out because we cannot play D, halfcourt inside scoring, and lack rebounding skills.

It's so hard to be a Warriors fan when much of the franchise IMO predicates their popularity based on hype (and hope). I just want a balanced roster and something to happen for the long term. Maybe the draft, another trade or free agency can do something for us. I'm quick to react because I don't like our team getting smaller and having sometimes selfish players that can't play much D or rebound or turn the ball over for big minutes at PF/SF on the account we have nobody at PF.

I can't explain it. Maybe REREM will come around and add something I might have missed.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Warriorfansnc93 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I dont care what the rest of you say, especially you CR2, I love these guys. I am REALLY impressed with Steve Jackson. His attitude is great so far. Lets hope he keeps this up. I cant believe the 4th quarter meltdown, but I attribute that to all of the hacks in the lane that were not called. I think that is why we had so many turnovers. We also did not get any deflections like we did in the first half. It sucks to lose like this. I just cant wait until Baron comes back.

I love the trade. I hated Murphy and I hate Dunleavy. I liked Ike, but he is just a casualty that had to be made for the overall team. This team has real hope whereas before I was fretting every game we walked into, not knowing if we had a chance or if we would get blown out. We should have won tonight...</div>

To CR2's credit, he makes a good point about Harrington's "true" position. He doesn't have one. But, that's what makes him PERFECT for our team. He runs and does a lot of things better than Murphy and Dun.

I liked Ike but people are giving him waaaay too much credit for doing nothing except putting up a good points and rebounds/minute ratio.

Did Ike play tonight???

 

Wow what a horrible loss. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

The Warriors got screwed by the league today with the Baron suspension and then some very very questionable officiating such as Monta's "carry" late in the game.

Seriously though, the Warriors lost because of the Cavs defense I think. They almost did what the Clippers did on Wednesday. They just let the Warriors shoot outside and nothing was falling. Then when Harrington drove he got packed by Marshall twice in a row. Matt Barnes loses the ball to LeBron, and Harrington and the Warriors just couldn't get the ball in the hoop even on lay ups. Basically in the game was a tale of two haves. The first half the Warriors were playing up tempo, had good spacing on offense, and there was some very good defense opening up some open court opportunities. The second half was just slow, half court, and there was nothing opening up for the Warriors and nobody could muster up anything that was working besides a few minutes to end the third period.

Right now the Warriors juat have too many of the same player. I think POB should get a call up soon. I think he will play well with the new lineup. I have no idea how Harrington and Richardson are supposed to play together with Baron Davis. I like how Jackson and Sarunas played however.

Can someone please get a rebound? sorry I just had to add that...

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Once the honeymoon is over, I bet some will complain about Harrington being just as bad as Murphy. AO is right that Murphy doesn't really box out either, but it's hard to imagine him thinking he's worthy of taking that many shots without deferring to somebody else.

As for 3 point shooting % that can change as it did with Murphy going from last year to this year.

One trade can't make everything right and land us this magical big man. Maybe I'm just mad that we never got to see this Biedrins/Ike frontline because we have to do this small ball thing. Maybe as a Warriors fan I should have to lower my expectations of what this club can do and especially hopes for any big man depth. Maybe it is the ultimate Warriors goal to think only in short term and try to at least make it to first round in the nba playoffs before soundly getting wiped out because we cannot play D, halfcourt inside scoring, and lack rebounding skills.

It's so hard to be a Warriors fan when much of the franchise IMO predicates their popularity based on hype (and hope). I just want a balanced roster and something to happen for the long term. Maybe the draft, another trade or free agency can do something for us. I'm quick to react because I don't like our team getting smaller and having sometimes selfish players that can't play much D or rebound or turn the ball over for big minutes at PF/SF on the account we have nobody at PF.

I can't explain it. Maybe REREM will come around and add something I might have missed.</div>

Hopefully when the honeymoon is over, the actual marriage will be a lot better than our last, much more expensive one. Don't forget, we're saving a lot of money here.

No Baron, no J-Rich = many shots put up by different players. I bet Harrington won't put up that many shots against the Lakers.

I admire your devil's advocate analysis, but you have to admit, this trade, OVERALL, has improved the W's.

I think the W's are getting better incrementally, at least on paper. I'm not being naive or hopeful, but it seems from a business perspective, the W's are doing the right things.

 

CR2, one comment you made earlier I have to take exception to and that was something like I'll be glad when small ball goes away .

Nellie ball isn't going to go away. That's how the Warriors are going to play and that's how they've succeeded in their history. We tried the pick n' roll game or the organized offense of the Utah Jazz. Our players that we got don't fit that mold.

I'm all right with keeping Foyle if POB doesn't develop, but we need another big like David Lee or AK-47 up front to get some boards and help AB clog the middle. We're still porous in that department.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">To CR2's credit, he makes a good point about Harrington's "true" position. He doesn't have one. But, that's what makes him PERFECT for our team. He runs and does a lot of things better than Murphy and Dun.

I liked Ike but people are giving him waaaay too much credit for doing nothing except putting up a good points and rebounds/minute ratio.

Did Ike play tonight???</div>

I dont care if he does not have a traditional position, he can play ball. I was so impressed in the first half when he grabbed the board and led the break SO FAST! His speed was suprising for me. He is everything we expected Dunleavy to be. I love him. I think he had opening night jitters. Not that he was nervous, but he really wanted to show the fans how well he is going to play for them. The same goes for Jackson, except his shots fell.

I was impressed with how smart Jackson is as a player. He has so much court awareness and patience. The only thing I did not like from him was how he did not get back on defense and was b1tching at the refs. Granted, I think he had a valid point, but he was hurting his team by not hustling and it seemed like that happened every time down. Even Al did it a bit. All these guys we got were smart compared to Dunleavy and Murphy. No wonder coach said these are the dumbest smart players I have ever had!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Did Ike play tonight???</div>

Yeah -- he had 0 pts in 5 minutes.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Custodian, I'm curious -- from the Warriors perspective, what do you lose in that swap? What does Murphy do better than Harrington?</div>

It's not about losing Murphy, I don't care about Murphy really. It's more about losing Ike. Yeah Nelson didn't like him, we rarely saw the things that Nelson really gets on Ike about, but he likes Harrington over Ike? What the heck? I just don't see it.

And I never said I didn't like SJax, I just thought his character was a questionable one.

So what I saw in this trade was losing a potentially dominant low post scoring big guy we drafted at #9 in the 2005 draft (a decent draft for a few teams) and a guy that got very few touches for what he was capable of.

Like I said before, in a few years, things could change from now and small ball may be out. Like today for instance, we shot a lot of threes, and we were useless in an iso halfcourt situation unless it was a guard based attack. It allowed Cleveland to get back in the game. Generally, when I saw Ike getting touches and minutes he was great off the ball and he made shots go in because he was a finisher. That's what I'm upset about. We got smaller again at the price of Murphy/Dunleaving being sent on their merry way. In those trades gotta give up something of value I guess. But damn we'll need this offseason or trade deadline to be spectacular because what happens if Baron Davis goes down or Biedrins gets in more foul trouble like tonight? There's just no big man depth on this team.

Maybe Nelson is purposely trying to go away from big ball so he can still be around and not forced out like he was at Dallas. Who knows. I'm kidding of course. But dang I sure do miss big ball. Small ball only allows the better defensive teams to get back in it. I don't care what people are saying about the rim having a lid on it. Those are excuses why we kept giving up fouls. You know we had no shotblockers in the game or guys of our own that took care of the offense end when the Cavs had no shotblockers? That's why I'm harsh. The trade in a sense is a grass is greener on the other side type of deal for me since I wanted Dun/Murph gone and I don't have much emotional attachment to SJax yet (although I did like his game before Atlanta) and I liked Sarunas. But those guys are guards not halfcourt power forwards. We need some balance in the halfcourt or we're royally screwed when we get slowed down and can't run the fastbreak.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">One trade can't make everything right and land us this magical big man. Maybe I'm just mad that we never got to see this Biedrins/Ike frontline because we have to do this small ball thing. Maybe as a Warriors fan I should have to lower my expectations of what this club can do and especially hopes for any big man depth. Maybe it is the ultimate Warriors goal to think only in short term and try to at least make it to first round in the nba playoffs before soundly getting wiped out because we cannot play D, halfcourt inside scoring, and lack rebounding skills.</div>
I think this trade is in the right direction. To me it shows some foresight. The players are not a big upgrade over what the W's had, but the cap situation is much better and will hopefully allow the W's to make future moves, to maybe get that big man that the W's need.

 

I have never noticed until tonight how the refs were trying to slow us down. The basket would be made and the Warriors were trying to hustle and get the ball in bounds and the refs would hold onto the ball until the defense got back and set! I was so frustrated with that. They would hold it for about 2-3 seconds! They slowed down our momentum and ability to push the ball...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Gohn Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think this trade is in the right direction. To me it shows some foresight. The players are not a big upgrade over what the W's had, but the cap situation is much better and will hopefully allow the W's to make future moves, to maybe get that big man that the W's need.</div>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Warriorfansnc93 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I dont care if he does not have a traditional position, he can play ball. I was so impressed in the first half when he grabbed the board and led the break SO FAST! His speed was suprising for me. He is everything we expected Dunleavy to be. I love him. I think he had opening night jitters. Not that he was nervous, but he really wanted to show the fans how well he is going to play for them. The same goes for Jackson, except his shots fell.

I was impressed with how smart Jackson is as a player. He has so much court awareness and patience. The only thing I did not like from him was how he did not get back on defense and was b1tching at the refs. Granted, I think he had a valid point, but he was hurting his team by not hustling and it seemed like that happened every time down. Even Al did it a bit. All these guys we got were smart compared to Dunleavy and Murphy. No wonder coach said these are the dumbest smart players I have ever had!</div>

Opening night jitters is when you're tentative. The guy wasn't shy that's for sure. Let's see how the next few weeks pan out and we'll see. We're comparing new players to players we knew were already bad. But I'm talking about player roles. What do we do when our running game has worked well for us and we totally blow a 15 or 16 point lead? Granted it wasn't Montgomery that was in charge (thank goodness), but we ran ourselves out of the game at some points and we didn't have an answer inside the paint. I don't think Al will be that guy or else most teams would hold onto him. But I think Ike could have been that guy given the minutes. I see one game I'm reacting. You guys see one game, you guys are reacting. So man nobody is right or wrong right now. It's speculation.

It's like when I hated the Dunleavy draft and I complained about it and people were telling me wait till he's played, wait till he's played. Well hell with that I'm going with my opinion now and people be damned if they're all going to be totally against the idea he could be bad. Same can be said if Ike is no good once he gets regular minutes in a rotation with the right player chemistry. I'm well aware of that.

The trade does solve one of my biggest gripes. Salary tax relief!

 

Yeah -- Stephen Jackson really impressed me tonight, and not just because of his team-high 29pts. I was reluctant to have him come to this team, based on my impressions I had of him. Isn't it funny how things can change so quickly? SJax is my new best friend!! Man, that guy is a terrific player, in every area of the game. He's probably the Warriors best outside shooter now, right alongside Rooney. He plays superb defense, rebounds well, passes well, doesn't make stupid turnovers, he's a super-value for the $$.

Honestly, I think a JRich + Pietrus for AK-47 + equalizer would be a great trade for GS.

Baron
Monta
Jackson
AK-47
Beans

with Harrington, Barnes, Sarunas, and Foyle off the bench.

Despite being a bit skinny, AK-47 is stronger than most people his size. He has a mirey strength, much like Barnes who often out-powers bigger players (and SJax, who is another very strong player with a somewhat thin frame). Ak-47 can hold it down at the PF. He's a great defender as well.

I love JRich, but he's getting paid a ton of $$ to sit out and watch right now. If we could get AK-47, we'd have to consider it. Who else would do that?

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't care what people are saying about the rim having a lid on it. Those are excuses why we kept giving up fouls. You know we had no shotblockers in the game or guys of our own that took care of the offense end when the Cavs had no shotblockers? </div>

The Cavs played a good game. We didn't have Baron, and we were playing with two new starters who don't know the playbook. Considering those things, the W's played pretty good.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah -- Stephen Jackson really impressed me tonight, and not just because of his team-high 29pts. I was reluctant to have him come to this team, based on my impressions I had of him. Isn't it funny how things can change so quickly? SJax is my new best friend!! Man, that guy is a terrific player, in every area of the game. He's probably the Warriors best outside shooter now, right alongside Rooney. He plays superb defense, rebounds well, passes well, doesn't make stupid turnovers, he's a super-value for the $$.

Honestly, I think a JRich + Pietrus for AK-47 + equalizer would be a great trade for GS.

Baron
Monta
Jackson
AK-47
Beans

with Harrington, Barnes, Sarunas, and Foyle off the bench.

Despite being a bit skinny, AK-47 is stronger than most people his size. He has a mirey strength, much like Barnes who often out-powers bigger players (and SJax, who is another very strong player with a somewhat thin frame). Ak-47 can hold it down at the PF. He's a great defender as well.

I love JRich, but he's getting paid a ton of $$ to sit out and watch right now. If we could get AK-47, we'd have to consider it. Who else would do that?</div>

It's an interesting idea to bring in AK, but I wouldn't trade J-Rich just yet. He hasn't played healthy in a single game under Nellie's system. I want to see that.

 

Watch what you say AlleyOop, AK47 could be that guy getting paid lots of $$$ to sit and watch. He's probably more injury prone that Jrich is. And you know Jrich would be still playing right now if Pietrus hadn't kicked him in the hand. Plus, is Jrich making that much money for what he's capable of? I think his contract deal is much better than most guard/forward hybrids and he's already shown he can thrive in halfcourt or open court ball providing he gets a setup man. That's just my philosphy on the matter. Consistent 20 ppg production and somebody who can help out Baron/Ellis and maybe do it more efficiently than SJax or Harrington.

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's not about losing Murphy, I don't care about Murphy really. It's more about losing Ike. Yeah Nelson didn't like him, we rarely saw the things that Nelson really gets on Ike about, but he likes Harrington over Ike? What the heck? I just don't see it.</div>

No, I meant when you said that trading Harrington for Murphy was basically a wash, because you gain one thing but lose another. I disagree, because I don't think Murphy does anything that Harrington doesn't.

To me, that swap is definately not a wash -- You only gain by getting Harrington for Murphy. You don't lose or "give up" anything. It's clearly a plus for GS, in my eyes -- Harrington rebounds as well as Murph, he shoots better (from FG, FT, and 3PT), he runs faster, finishes fast breaks better, dribbles better, passes as well, and moves better without the ball.


I'm just wondering what it is you think you're loosing in the swap of Harrington for Murphy? What does Murphy do better?

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Watch what you say WFS93, AK47 could be that guy getting paid lots of $$$ to sit and watch. He's probably more injury prone that Jrich is. And you know Jrich would be still playing right now if Pietrus hadn't kicked him in the hand. Plus, is Jrich making that much money for what he's capable of? I think his contract deal is much better than most guard/forward hybrids and he's already shown he can thrive in halfcourt or open court ball providing he gets a setup man. That's just my philosphy on the matter. Consistent 20 ppg production and somebody who can help out Baron/Ellis and maybe do it more efficiently than SJax or Harrington.</div>

Yup. Plus, J-Rich is a good defensive rebounder. Once healthy, he could make-up for the defensive rebounding liability Harrington is. But, I do think Harrington's rebounding numbers will go up on this team.