From a site that helps TG people and parents understand the issues: https://www.genderspectrum.org/about/faq Ok, since you didn't seem to like my last situation, I'd like to run a new hypothetical question by you and crandc: If six year old Roberta Lopez came to my house (dressed as a girl) and I referred to the young Miss Lopez as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Roberta as 'he' after he left. Let's say that, since departing me house, I did refer to Roberta as a he. Three years later, Roberto (formerly Roberta) Lopez comes to my house dressed like a boy. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Roberto 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect. Since I had called Lopez 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Roberta/Roberto a 'he' all along? If I was right all along about him being a boy, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a boy the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior? Go Blazers
About being transgendered? I don't think so. About how they present? Yes, and I've said so many times. The person is what it looks like. Remember me saying that?
Your posts are getting dumber and dumber. Yesterday, it was about what toys they play with. Now, it's about what they look like? Make up your mind.
How about the hypothetical that's almost always the case. The person presents as a woman (or man) and never changes. Why be an asshole about it when most likely you are wrong?
LOL! You sure can get pissy when what you write is shown to be just so much pompous, PC bullshit. Go Blazers
You weren't saying ALMOST in the rest of this thread. You were talking in absolutes, and that's what we disagreed on. Then, once it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that sometimes TG's, especially children DO CHANGE THEIR MINDS, you change your whole story, and try to make it out to be me that was typing pompous crap. Would you now say that it's almost impossible that I could become gay at this point in my life? In what way would I have been an asshole in any of the scenarios I've presented? Or, is me being an asshole only because you've been called for making shit up? Further, you used the PC crap you wrote to call others out as being bigoted and mean spirited when they weren't. Go Blazers
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/mtv-true-life-transgender-teens-change-their-minds-as-adults/ So, since you REALLY don't want to respond to my scenarios, I'd like to run my recycled hypothetical questions by you and crandc again: If Daniella 'Doe' came to my house and I referred to Ms. Doe as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Doe as 'he' after he left. Let's say that, once gone, I did refer to Daniella as a he. Three months later, Jait Jr. Doe comes to my house. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Jait 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect. Since I had called Doe 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Daniella/Jait a 'he' all along? If I was right all along about him being a man, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a man the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior? Go Blazers
The person is still transgendered. If you can't accept it, and disrespect the person, then that us bigoted. And what is wrong with being "correct?"
Keep avoiding the issue. You claim that it is bigoted to not call them what they present. Jait was a guy when he was Daniella, and Jait proved that by later self-deciding that he is a guy. (Unless you want to make a case that TG people's gender is fluid throughout their lives.) Therefore, if he was always a guy, it was not bigoted, and not mean spirited, to have called him a guy at all times, except when Daniella was present, so as not to insult her. It's not really that hard to understand, Denny. You said that TG people NEVER change their minds once they self identify. (Or, at least no more likely than me "magically" becoming gay....and that's a 0% probability.) You were so fucking positive about that that you say it is bigoted and 'assholely', apparently, to call a self determined lady a guy when they are not present, even when they actually are a guy. So, explain to me how it is bigoted to call a guy, born with a penis, becoming confused, self-identifying as a girl, then coming full circle to say that they are still a guy, a guy. Go Blazers
Because I want Denny to address the questions I've asked, or admit what he wrote was nonsense. Once Denny makes something up, it takes pages to show that he's wrong, because he never admits it, and will wiggle and squirm until whoever calls him out gives up. He would have us believe that TG people never change their minds. I think I've shown that is just made up. Go Blazers
As I said earlier about a Denny and his responses. He has yet to respond to my real last point on the subject because it was right. Denny gets paid for hits and posts. His posts are sometimes off, but he does a good job continuing the conversation and drawing people in. Don't forget this.
Yeah I get that sense, too. I usually don't care if someone wants to beat their chest about how enlightened and PC they are. It's when they talk down to people, and insist that every single person must think exactly like they do, or they make it personal. If you don't see it their way, you are stupid, bigoted, mean spirited and/or low brow, when others have an opinion that is just as valid as the one they hold. Just different. Denny seems to have a problem just saying that what he stated was wrong for some reason. Which I would like to think gets back to the reason you offered up....more hits. Go Blazers
Old guy, here is my take on all your scenarios It's good that you are polite and respectful in that when you refer to the transgender in their presence, you use the term they identify as. If they changed their mind, the same applies, refer to them as what they identify as. Privately, I may think it's rude to then use the opposite term, but that's between you and your conscience. Is it WRONG, well, it's a hell of a lot better than to use it in public, but it would be nice if people weren't having their private lives critiqued by you as soon as they leave. It strikes me as disingenuous to wait for Patty to leave, turn to your buddy and refer to Patty as a he. So, why does that matter, well, it doesn't, except that you help set the standards of acceptance in your community. If Patty leaves and you turn to your buddy and call her a he, well, it makes true acceptance much more difficult in the long run. Can people change their minds, yes. It doesn't happen often in situations like this, but that's also besides the point. There is no big burden placed on you to call someone as they present. You do it all the time with cis gendered people. If someone clearly dresses and acts like they are a man or a woman, then just refer to them by the gender presented. And if they change their mind, you still just refer to them as the gender presented. It's not some big hardship. But, throughout all that, It's nice to know that at a minimum you are respectful and nice in person.
They can both CALL THEMSELVES whatever they want but I'll call them by their names. As most of you know I self-identify as a Real American. I knew deep inside my soul by age 3 that was who I was. I've been told by teachers, friends and colleagues that I'm somehow not a "Real" American. I want everyone to refer to me as a Real American. Does this respect thing apply to everyone or just people confused about their gender?
