Further, I don't think you were being "hypocritical", just unclear. Hypocrisy implies bad intentions which I trust you do not have. Transgender is not "a boy who likes to play with dolls". My brother, growing up with two older sisters, played with our dolls when he was very young. He is straight, married, cis-gender. But not macho; I raised him better than that (well, so did our mother); he is a firm believer in equality and his marriage is on equal lines. Playing with dolls does not transgender make. I raised this before - all of you, from the time you were conscious, knew you were a boy (or girl). Transpeople are just the same although the gender they know themselves to be does not match physical genitals. It is not "thinking you're a girl" or "playing with dolls" or "being butch". It is not gender nonconformity. This has been patiently explained so many times that I am forced to conclude some people don't wish to understand. However, it is basic courtesy to address and refer to people in the way they prefer. A transwoman is "she". A transman is "he". Not it. Not shemale. Not he/she. And not the pronoun they are not.
For the record, there is scientifically 5 genders. Male as we think of them. People with a penis, vagina, and testicles only. People with a penis vagina, testicles, and ovaries, people with a penis, vagina, and ovaries only, females as we think of them. There are also XX, XY, and XXY, and XYY.
I believe (maybe mistakenly) that most here would address a TS as the pronoun they prefer when they were present. I doubt that anyone here would purposely make an effort to hurt the feelings of the TG person. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't continue to refer to him/her by their biological sex when they are not present, though. Go Blazers
Why does it matter? Do people actually go through life worrying they might be 5% gay? Says the guy who works in plastic surgery. "The person is nothing more than a science project." Yes, because our gender defines who we are as people. There are examples of a "third" gender in several cultures. It's not beyond reality. Also, under the LGBTQ umbrella there are people who are "gender queer", who see themselves as somewhere in between "man" and "woman." What is this, 1940? Maybe we should give them electroshock to see if that makes them normal again. It is too limiting, and society is moving in the direction of classifying people as who they self-identify as. We will get there, no matter who is yelling in the background about how they are just crazy, deviant, Frankensteins.
I posed a simple question. The crux of the matter is whether or not a transgender person who claims to be a female is really female. To me, they will always be a transgender and I will personally see them as that no matter what kind of scientific modifications they do to their body. Further seems to think they should be interchangeable, so I asked if he would be comfortable putting his dick where his mouth is. I doubt that most people would see a transgender person who became female and a female on the same playing field. And there is a big difference between changing the angle of your nose or cutting fat out and actually going in and changing your body chemistry through hormone injections.
Your question isn't so simple. By who's standard? And with what consequences? You seem to be only approaching this issue from a "fuckability" perspective. Which is, yeah, I get it. That's the modus operandi of most people. But sexual attraction is not at the top of the list of issues with self-identification and self-expression. Someone who feels as if they should be female shouldn't have to take into consideration whether some random bro from LA thinks they will be as hot as someone born female. It's just a matter of scale. We alter our bodies physically and chemically for all sorts of reasons all the time.
Oldguy, if you would call a transperson his or her appropriate gender terminology to his or her face, why not always? Is that like saying you would not call an African-American the "n word" if he/she was present but would behind his/her back? Wouldn't call a woman a b----- or a gay man a f----- et al if they were present but would if they weren't? Why not use appropriate terms at all times? It's not difficult. Since people are so obsesses with sex with transpeople, I had a brief relationship with a transwoman - and I did not even know she was trans for some time. She was just tall. Otherwise no different from any other woman. If you didn't know, you wouldn't know. Ah, my wild youth.
How would you feel if people told you that you're a girl, even though you really claim to be a guy. Show them your dick, they don't care. If you dress like a guy and hateful people throw shit at you when you're walking down the street minding your own business, you're just asking for it. Don't go looking for some snarky response. I mean this as an exercise for those of you with an iota of intellectual curiosity. Put yourself in their position and maybe you'll gain a little perspective.
I'm just being biologically accurate. Transgender people are not simply "male" or "female". If they are merely just dressing and acting the part, they are basically playing make believe. If they go ahead with hormone therapy and what not, they are still living a lie of who they truly were born as. Sure, they can say they're who they are and we can all go rah rah rah and woo woo, but we all know its not the truth, its just a feelgood measure. Self identification and self expression is like getting a tattoo or changing your hairstyle. Transgenderism falls along the same lines as this.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Further would be one flexible dude with a large penis if he could achieve this.
Took me a second but - hilarious! Repped I wonder if el presidente ever heard of birth control shots? For that matter, thyroid replacement therapy? Growth hormone (for actual failure to grow, not illlegal PED). Crap, people change their body chemistry with hormone injections all the time.
Yes, a "feelgood measure" is a good way of putting it. If you feel that you are a woman but you live as a man, and people treat you like a man, and you are in a man's body, then that is living a lie. Continuing to act and look like someone who you feel you are not is living a lie. It causes anxiety and depression. Expressing your self-identify may make you a happier person. It's a feelgood measure. Come on. Gender has WAY more social and psychological weight than tattoos or hairstyle. There is a lot more wrapped up in this than outward appearance.
BS. Looks are subjective. Show me the chromosome map and then tell me if it's a man or a woman. Otherwise, you're wrong.
This is ridiculous. If I "feel like" or "view myself" being a black woman so I can get into certain colleges and other minority groups, is that good enough?
To me: what an intense and potentially polarizing topic. To be able to discuss this topic on this board in a civil manner it one of the unique aspects of this board. So crandc, since it was me who mentioned dolls, I feel like I need to address this. You completely missed my point (maybe my fault). I'm not saying playing with dolls makes you transgender . . . I was trying to figure out what feeling one has to say "I feel like a woman" because to me there is no definition of woman or man. If I was really pushed on a definition, I would probably default to the biological definition vs. feeling someone has. Again, I have no problem calling someone whatever they want to be called, but if there are times when the legal distinction comes into play (like say the olympics), I don't think saying you are a woman(even though biologically you are a male) should be enough to compete with woman in the olympics. But going back to feeling like a woman. I don't even understand feeling like a man (although I like how you automatically asssume macho is a bad thing). You say we all, since time we were born, knew you were a boy or a girl. I don't think that is true. I have no idea what "feel like a man" is suppose to be. If you asked me 30 years ago I would say I feel like a man because I have a penis and I like girls. Well the girl thing doesn't mean anything and I guess these days a penis doesn't mean anything. But I have no idea what "feeling like a man" means and I am a man . . . I think . . . .
First, within certain limits, I know that I would be willing to call a TG person what they prefer in their presence. After some conversation with them, I may or may not continue to refer to their sex as it relates to their plumbing after they left. How exactly does that harm them (to be called a guy), if they aren't there? What a load of crap. If a black guy asked that I refer to him as an African-American, I would when he was present. When he was not present, I would call him what I have for years....a black guy. Calling someone a guy is light years away from calling a black man the 'n word'. I haven't and wouldn't refer to them as trannies or shemales or other slurs. If a gay person wanted to be called a unicorn, I would call them that in their presence. When they weren't around I would call them gay people. If a women wanted to be called lady, I would call them that when they were around. The rest of the time, with the exception of a choice few, I would call them women, girls or gals. And aren't we lucky to have you here to tell us what is appropriate? Well, I'm far from obsessed with sex with TG people, so you can rattle someone else's cage on that subject. Go Blazers
Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman. And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions. But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople. The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with. But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man. And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect? Including using proper gender terminology? I remember reading Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. In this future society language has been modified so there are no gender pronouns. They'd say "person is having lunch", for example. "Per" for short. That would make this discussion obsolete, but for now, we still use pronouns.
