<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iFR3SHi @ Jun 11 2007, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Did some more. Isnt Valo in like the army or something? I saw his posts he usually posts around 5AM to 10AM. Im guessing he has to get up or something at 5 and would not be staying on at this time.</div>Pinoy BallaIt's not highlife, it's actually valo. I am in the army, stationed in Afghanistan right now, and it's my day off. It's actually 11:46 AM for me right now in Afghanistan.
Alright then since I got nothing better to do I'll debate it with you.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Gerald Green is an awesome scorer, a better scorer than Lebron James is, and will continue to be in the future when he tunes his game even more. He has a much better shot on him, can play from deep, play from mid range, and attack the basket well. He isn't limited to what he can, and can't do with his scoring, like Lebron James is. Your seeing it now with the Spurs, when he isn't getting to the rim as much, and is getting trapped off of picks so Lebron has to settle for jumpers Lebron can not score. I don't believe his jump shot will ever get good enough to stop that from happening. When he isn't scoring, his team is usually loosing. That is different from Gerald Green, who is not limited like that, and won't be in the future. He can come off of screens and hit the jump shot, or drive to the rim so getting trapped like that won't hurt his scoring or his teams scoring in the future. As well as he can use his athleticism to score, just like Lebron James can. He has the speed to get to the rim quickly off of the dribble, or off of movement. He can also jump just as high to receive lobs, and go up with great dunks.</div>Gerald Green is the better scorer? C'mon Valo like you seriously believe that. Gerald Green shot 6% worse from the field while shooting 10 less time a game than Lebron did this season. Who cares if LeBrons jumper has been struggling versus the Spurs. That's no where near enough to make Gerald the better scorer. Your looking at two games where LeBron has struggled. Throughout LeBron's career against SA he has averaged 26 ppg on 49% shooting. He also gets 6.5 boards and 5 apg. Gerald Green on the other hand played absolutely horrible against the Spurs this season. He shot 1-7 from the field and didn't make any trips to the free throw line. He also got no rebounds or assists and had 3 fouls in a time period of only 20 minutes. Also ok you described a bunch of ways of scoring Gerald Green is capable of doing. It doesn't mean he's consistently able to score in any of those ways. LeBron James can almost always get to the hoop to score or draw the foul. He's one of the best at it in the NBA. There's no category of scoring that Gerald Green is one of the best at. He is capable of scoring in a decent amount of ways but he really has no way of scoring that he can truly rely on if he needs it. Also yes the Cavs struggle if LeBron is struggling to score. That doesn't neccessarily mean that it's LeBron's fault though. Lebron is one of the best passers and playmakers in the league. Just because his supporting cast is horrible doesn't mean that LeBron can only be effective by scoring. Put Gerald Green in LeBron's situation and the cavs are easily the worst team in the league. Gerald is 10x more inconsistent and unreliable than LeBron is and having to deal with the pressure of carrying a team's offense and leading a team to vicotry would only make it worse. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Lebron also does not like to move without the ball, which is another area that Green will be able to help his teams with in the futre. Green moves without the ball, and when your just standing there with the ball, that means your man isn't moving either, which is making it harder for him to get open as a scorer. Green won't have that problem, and doesn't have that problem.</div>Ok? Do you want me to point out all the things LeBron does better than Green? Your pointing out one thing. For every one thing you can point out that Green does better I can point out 10 different things LeBron does better.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for not taking over a game as well, I beg to differ. He is already showing that he can take over a game, and shoulder the scoring load, much in the same way Tracy Mcgrady can take over a game and shoulder the scoring load. He can go off with a major scoring spurt at any given time, when his team needs someone to score. Just look at games like the Cleveland game where he went off for 21 points in 19 minutes, or the Bucks game where he went off for 21 points in like 22 minutes, including 16 points in the second quarter of that game alone, with no turnovers and no mistakes. He definately has the ability, and the will to take over a game with his scoring in much the same way that Mcgrady does, which is unlike Lebron. Sometimes Lebron is unwilling to take over a game with his scoring, and more willing to pass the balle off and rely on his teamates for scoring.</div>Once again you pointed out two games. Everyone has a good game very once in a while. The thing is when LeBron was Green's age, he was consistently putting up better numbers than that every single night. I mean for God's sake he averaged 27/7/7 when he was Gerald's age. I mean when Lebron was Gerald's age he was still the better scorer, passer, rebounder, leader, and defender(that says a lot about Green's defense). He was also showing much more maturity, a better work ethic, and had the better NBA body. Plus you keep talking about how Green will improve in the future. Your acting like LeBron isn't only 23 himself. Lebron is still getting better and all the weaknesses you have pointed out are correctable.
[quote name='iversonfan268' post='377879' date='Jun 11 2007, 02:26 AM']Alright then since I got nothing better to do I'll debate it with you.Gerald Green is the better scorer? C'mon Valo like you seriously believe that. Gerald Green shot 6% worse from the field while shooting 10 less time a game than Lebron did this season..[/quote]He shot 6 percent less from the field in less shots per game, but those less shots can affect your percentage more. For example, with only 10 shots per game, one missed shot is going to take away more of a percentage than in 20 shots per game. You can't really compare those shooting percentages like that. It's not only this San Antonio series that he is having trouble. To start the series against the Pistons he had problems, until they stopped playing defense on him the same way. In the New Jersey series he struggled, until they stopped playing defense on him the same way. During the regular season he struggled more than a few times with other teams that played that same way on him throughout the game. So it's not only this San Antonio series that it has been happening. Lebron James can't almost always get to the hoop and draw the foul either. If he got the hoop all the time, then his field goal percentage would be much higher than the 47 percent it is at right now. He would also go the free throw line more than 9 times a game. On 20 shots per game, that is only about 4 or 5 of those shots he gets fouled on. Gerald Green doesn't have one area he is one of the best at in the NBA, but really Tracy Mcgrady didn't either at that same age. He had the same scoring set and ability that Gerald Green has and proved to be a top 2 or 3 scorer in this league in the future. Gerald Green has this same scoring ability, with slightly more athleticism than what T-Mac had. Gerald is inconsistent now sometimes, but with an idiot like Doc Rivers coaching, his playing time is not consistent so of course his scoring is going to be on the same level as his playing time. In the future he is not going to be that same kind of inconsistent playing time, so we will see his scoring stay consistent, much like Mcgrady after the trade from Toronto to Orlando. Green can score in a better variety of ways right now, and will prove to be better in the future at it. He moves better without the ball. He really isn't that bad at defense, if you watched a few of his games this year, he did a good job of one on one defense when Tony Allen wasn't in the game. When Lebron was Green's age, he also got some sort of consistency with his playing time because his coach's understood that's what develops a player. Doc Rivers doesn't understand this, and you will see Gerald Green play two great games in a row, then play little to no minutes the very next night or even in the very next quarter. These aren't the only two games where he went off for good numbers, they are just two of the games I got to watch first hand that I remember well. He showed a great touch and ability to score in volumes in many more games this season.Lebron was averaging 27/7/7 his second year, but he went back to around those same numbers this year. He improved last year, and then went back to doing the same thing he was doing in his second season, this year. Gerald Green isn't going to go back with what he is doing, he is going to move forward and continue to improve. He will improve, but his scoring touch will never improve to what Gerald's will/is already. It's alot harder to improve your shooting, than it is the size of your body. Gerald can easily put on weight, and get better at rebounding than Lebron can improve his jump shot. Not many people improve their shot without alot of work.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 11 2007, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pinoy BallaIt's not highlife, it's actually valo. I am in the army, stationed in Afghanistan right now, and it's my day off. It's actually 11:46 AM for me right now in Afghanistan.</div>Oh ok. Man I aoplogize. My fault.
Valo, you are convincing, but terribly wrongHow does Lebron improve from 27/7/7? You want him to put up 40/10/10? Like that's physically possible. And Lebron has so much improved in terms of leadership.You're looking at a guy like Gerald Green, what if he doesn't pan out? Lebron already has panned out.Lebron is a good shooter, his jump shot will end up on the same level of MJ's if he keeps working on it. He has a weird, but nice form. He has unbelievable strength. But not only that, he will eventually learn how unstoppable he is around the rim.Gerald Green shows flashes of being a better scorer than Lebron? Sure, I'll agree with that. But scoring means nothing if you can't do anything else, and Green can't do anything but score. He can't pass, rebound, play defense...He can only score. You cannot trade 2s for 2s. Gerald Green cannot go down the floor and score, and then let his opponet score. It won't work.My #1 reason that I think this topic is ridiculous is your comparrison to T-Mac. T-Mac has never ever made it out of the first round of the playoffs , and all the teams he's been on were about 5 times better than Lebron's current team. Yet at the age of 22 Lebron is in the finals, with a worse team than McGrady. So, let's say Green, who you say is the next McGrady starts playing this wonderful game you speak of, he will never, ever go anywhere in the playoffs, which means he cannot be considered better than Lebron
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 11 2007, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He shot 6 percent less from the field in less shots per game, but those less shots can affect your percentage more. For example, with only 10 shots per game, one missed shot is going to take away more of a percentage than in 20 shots per game. You can't really compare those shooting percentages like that. It's not only this San Antonio series that he is having trouble. To start the series against the Pistons he had problems, until they stopped playing defense on him the same way. In the New Jersey series he struggled, until they stopped playing defense on him the same way. During the regular season he struggled more than a few times with other teams that played that same way on him throughout the game. So it's not only this San Antonio series that it has been happening. Lebron James can't almost always get to the hoop and draw the foul either. If he got the hoop all the time, then his field goal percentage would be much higher than the 47 percent it is at right now. He would also go the free throw line more than 9 times a game. On 20 shots per game, that is only about 4 or 5 of those shots he gets fouled on.Gerald Green doesn't have one area he is one of the best at in the NBA, but really Tracy Mcgrady didn't either at that same age. He had the same scoring set and ability that Gerald Green has and proved to be a top 2 or 3 scorer in this league in the future. Gerald Green has this same scoring ability, with slightly more athleticism than what T-Mac had. Gerald is inconsistent now sometimes, but with an idiot like Doc Rivers coaching, his playing time is not consistent so of course his scoring is going to be on the same level as his playing time. In the future he is not going to be that same kind of inconsistent playing time, so we will see his scoring stay consistent, much like Mcgrady after the trade from Toronto to Orlando.Green can score in a better variety of ways right now, and will prove to be better in the future at it. He moves better without the ball. He really isn't that bad at defense, if you watched a few of his games this year, he did a good job of one on one defense when Tony Allen wasn't in the game. When Lebron was Green's age, he also got some sort of consistency with his playing time because his coach's understood that's what develops a player. Doc Rivers doesn't understand this, and you will see Gerald Green play two great games in a row, then play little to no minutes the very next night or even in the very next quarter. These aren't the only two games where he went off for good numbers, they are just two of the games I got to watch first hand that I remember well. He showed a great touch and ability to score in volumes in many more games this season.Lebron was averaging 27/7/7 his second year, but he went back to around those same numbers this year. He improved last year, and then went back to doing the same thing he was doing in his second season, this year. Gerald Green isn't going to go back with what he is doing, he is going to move forward and continue to improve. He will improve, but his scoring touch will never improve to what Gerald's will/is already. It's alot harder to improve your shooting, than it is the size of your body. Gerald can easily put on weight, and get better at rebounding than Lebron can improve his jump shot. Not many people improve their shot without alot of work.</div>See here's the thing with your arguement. For LeBron you keep bringing up how he is playing now but for Green you keep bringing how he can play in the future. Your trying to make it seem like LeBron isn't still young himself and still improving when he is. The guy is 23 and not even in his prime yet. Pretty much every single weakness LeBron has is correctable. Especially his jump shot. There's no reason at all to think LeBron isn't going to improve his jumper. SO in that case LeBron will have no scoring weaknesses either in the future. And that's really all you've bveen arguing so far. That Gerald Green has the potential to be a better scorer than LeBron is now. Well, like I said LeBron is still imrpoving aswell. Plus even if Gerald Green becomes the better scorer so what? He won't be the better scorer by a very large margin. And he will still be better than Gerald in almost every other aspect of the game.
oh hey.I think Robert Swift is the future of the NBA, he just needs some PT to prove it.IMO he's not far away from surpassing Tim Duncan as the premier big man.discuss.p.s. if you take this seriously... go dunk your head in the toilet and flush
Valo, props for going out your way to play with peoples mind.If some people have the ability to greatly convince other people on things then they can do it for anything for example. you can say sony is better than tshiba or somthing or if you wanted to you can say it the other way round and you could still sell it, like a really good salesman lol, you know what I mean.btw GG will never put up 20+ unless he's on a poor team or unless he drasticly improves most parts of his game. end of story, to me his a limited player because.. uh I forget lol.
This is HILARIOUS! Valo is debating something pretty ridiculous which he probably doesn't actually believe yet is still winning this debate. Wow... I am intrigued by this topic, so I'll chime in....[quote name='valo35' post='377888' date='Jun 11 2007, 02:53 AM']He shot 6 percent less from the field in less shots per game, but those less shots can affect your percentage more. For example, with only 10 shots per game, one missed shot is going to take away more of a percentage than in 20 shots per game. You can't really compare those shooting percentages like that.[/quote]Not only did he shoot 6% less but he also didn't have double and triple teams constantlly thrown at him each game. The problem with LeBron is he CHOOSES to settle for jumpers. There is NO reason for him to not be getting to rim more during the season. As for against the Spurs, there are very, very few players that can do very well against one of the best perimeter defenders of this era, one of the best low post defenders backing him up, and a supporting cast and coach that have been the top defensive minds of the past decade. And it isn't like Bron has Shaq or someone to help take some pressure off. If GG had to face the kind of pressure SA is throwing at Bron right now he'd be averaging about 10 TO's per game along with a shooting % so far in the gutter it wouldn't even be funny. In the barest sense, yes, GG and young T-Mac have their similarities. But there are a few huge things that seperate them:T-Mac has been called by many as the toughest one on one matchup in the league. Aside from jumpshooting/driving, he is amazingly creative in how he creates space/gets shot up. He knows how to manipulate picks and double teams perfectly, knows how to use defender's momentum and then change direction to get an easy fadeaway (aka his go-to move where he dribbles to right of defender, then spins backwards to his left), and has the killer instinct as a scorer to be a 32PPG guy. In Orlando he was the most talented scorer in the league (and still top 3 IMO) and the best streak scorer I have ever seen, and that is something that is extremely rare ability. To say GG will develop into that kind of player is very, very far fetched and up until now there are no similarities between Orlando T-Mac and GG now. You can use T-Mac from his Raptors days, but that is pointless as he became a totally different player with a totally different role in Orlando. He didn't have to use the same skills on both teams. What GG's role is now and how is abilities are being used would be extremely different if he was expected to carry a team like T-Mac did, and T-Mac is a very rare case where he succeeded that greatly going from a 3rd-4th option to being a lone man and dominating. Again, we don't know how Green's jumpshot will translate when he has 2 defenders draped on him. I watched about 5-10 Celtics games this year, so I am not a GG expert, but just from looking at his 33pt game most of his shots were assisted 3ptr's or layups/dunks. When you are a superstar with the defense constantly targeting you, things are much, much more difficult. He will have a much harder time getting to the rim than LeBron due to being far less muscular and strong, and I don't see his jumpshot being so much better to make up for that. I highly doubt he will be the kind of streak scorer a Kobe or T-Mac is, so that advantage is out the window.GG moves better without the ball because often he is forgotten about and doesn't have a whole team basically making a set of rules just to guard him. GG could never do what he does now if he had to face the defensive pressure Bron faces. Not to mention blending into the background a it is to allow the superstar rest. LeBron has improved his jumpshot pretty well the past few years. I doubt he will ever be an amazing jumpshooter, but he can get hot and his driving more than makes up for it. It is easier to improve size of body, but the kind of driving ability Bron has isn't just because of his body or athleticism....it is touch and skill that he has had already 4 years of NBA experience to develop. By now he knows how to manipulate other players, and refs, to get the foul call, to get enough room for shot, etc... GG will never be as effective going to the rim. And 40lbs of muscle is a LOT of weight to gain during an NBA career.As a scorer, it doesn't matter if GG, in the vaguest possible light, is more well rounded as a pure scorer, as what Bron does is good enough to average 27-31PPG on a shooting % even someone like T-Mac or Kobe has never reached. Against the best defense in the league, yeah, he has problems and his jumpshot is more of a factor, but he did well vs them in the regular season, had a good game 2. Not to mention against about 28 other teams he can get his 30PPG on 48% shooting when he wants it. And up until now I have just talked about scoring. GG will NEVER be the playmaker Bron is. Bron has very special court vision and point-knowledge that he has had, and developed, since early in his HS career. GG will never be nearly as effective there. As a rebounder, GG will need to gain 40lbs just to be as heavy as LeBron, let alone learn to be as agressive on the boards as Bron is right now. Defensively I'll hold my breath until I see him take the toughest defensive assignments in the league at his position on a nightly basis.Heh, this is fun.PFF: Hahahahaha...you're a moron. He had SO little help in Orlando it isn't even funny. He had Drew Gooden who wasn't near as good as he is now, and that's about it. Giricek, Garrity...yep, great supporting cast compared to Hughes, Z, etc... In 04-05 the Rockets didn't have their 3rd best scorer for the playoffs yet pushed a better Mavs team to 7 games behind T-Mac's amazing play. This year T-Mac was fantastic, and had 29/13 in game 7, but teammates gave him little, coaching was HORRIBLE, and Utah was a better overall team. If the Cavs had to play Mavs of 04-05 or Jazz this year, neither series would go past 5 games.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 11 2007, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Valo, props for going out your way to play with peoples mind.If some people have the ability to greatly convince other people on things then they can do it for anything for example. you can say sony is better than tshiba or somthing or if you wanted to you can say it the other way round and you could still sell it, like a really good salesman lol, you know what I mean.btw GG will never put up 20+ unless he's on a poor team or unless he drasticly improves most parts of his game. end of story, to me his a limited player because.. uh I forget lol.</div> Yeah, that makes sense. Also, he'll never be able to score 20 a night because he's not a well-rounded player? That also doesn't make sense. I'm not guaranteeing that Gerald will or will not turn out to be a 20 point scorer, but I think that he will. He can score in this league right now, and he's not even close to being fully developed. He's 21 years old with a good head on his shoulders, ridiculous athletic ability, a natural scorer's mentality, and a good work ethic. He may never turn out to be an all-around player like a Tracy McGrady, but he sure as hell will be a dynamite offensive option in this league for a long time, at the least.Valo, now that everybody knows what this thread was all about, what are your real thoughts on Gerald Green? I'm just curious.
I'm gonna be honest. I porbably saw Gerald Green play about twice this season and before the playoffs and I hadn't been watching much of LeBron this season either since I don't have league pass or anything(even though I probably wouldn't have watched Gerald much anyways lol) so yeah no matter how ridiculous the topic was, I had trouble debating this. Props Valo for somehow being able to pull that off.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Jun 12 2007, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> Yeah, that makes sense. Also, he'll never be able to score 20 a night because he's not a well-rounded player? That also doesn't make sense. I'm not guaranteeing that Gerald will or will not turn out to be a 20 point scorer, but I think that he will. He can score in this league right now, and he's not even close to being fully developed. He's 21 years old with a good head on his shoulders, ridiculous athletic ability, a natural scorer's mentality, and a good work ethic. He may never turn out to be an all-around player like a Tracy McGrady, but he sure as hell will be a dynamite offensive option in this league for a long time, at the least.Valo, now that everybody knows what this thread was all about, what are your real thoughts on Gerald Green? I'm just curious.</div>He's a Ricky Davis.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 12 2007, 02:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's a Ricky Davis.</div>Ricky Davis is a 20-point scorer in this league and he is also a decently well-rounded player. Before, you said that Gerald won't develop an all-around game and won't be a 20 point scorer... then you called him another Ricky Davis. That doesn't make sense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Jun 12 2007, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ricky Davis is a 20-point scorer in this league and he is also a decently well-rounded player. Before, you said that Gerald won't develop an all-around game and won't be a 20 point scorer... then you called him another Ricky Davis. That doesn't make sense.</div>> read carefully<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 11 2007, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>btw GG will never put up 20+ unless he's on a poor team or unless he drasticly improves most parts of his game.</div>I said poor team or if GG surpases expectations on what he's able to do offensivly. Ricky Davis wouldn't score a heap if he were to be on a good team, him having played in cleveland, boston and now in minny allows him to score 20 a game because it is needed from him.
Actually, Nitro, you're being the moronYou're coming with me with all this weak what if sh*t. Lebron is in the finals, T-Mac has never made it out of the first round. I know it's your job to be a homer, but really you're just being a dick. You know as well as I do that Lebron is way better than T-Mac
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Jun 12 2007, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, Nitro, you're being the moronYou're coming with me with all this weak what if sh*t. Lebron is in the finals, T-Mac has never made it out of the first round. I know it's your job to be a homer, but really you're just being a dick. You know as well as I do that Lebron is way better than T-Mac</div>I don't care if Bron is better than T-Mac or not (which, right now, I agree with, although it has nothing to do with playoff success). If the Cavs were in the West, they'd be out in 5 games and would be no higher than a 6th seed. Simple as that. A few years ago when T-Mac was in Orlando his supporting cast was MUCH worse than what LeBron has now. LeBron has a solid cast built around him that is built right around his talents well. T-Mac never had that in Orlando, especially since his 2nd option played a total of about 50 games during his time in Orlando (Grant Hill).When you are the 3rd leading scorer in playoff HISTORY like T-Mac is, has a 29/13/5 game in a game 7, a 44pt game in a loss (teammates shot about 30% from the field outside of him in that game and he nearly doubled their production in points), a 34/8/6 series like T-Mac had a few years back, a 30/7/6 series like he had 2 years back....you are hard pressed to put a ton of blame on him, especially since every year he has been the underdog (with the exception of this year, although Utah was simply a better team).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 12 2007, 04:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>> read carefullyI said poor team or if GG surpases expectations on what he's able to do offensivly. Ricky Davis wouldn't score a heap if he were to be on a good team, him having played in cleveland, boston and now in minny allows him to score 20 a game because it is needed from him.</div>He scored 20 in Cleveland and he got/gets around that in Boston/Minnesota, but the point of all of this is that Ricky Davis IS a 20 point scorer in this league. Even if he gets put on a great team and he maybe gets 15-16 a night, he is still thought of as a "20-point scorer" because he's so gifted offensively that he's able to score 20 on basically any given night.
Ricky Davis is a PIMP.for sure he'd be a scorer on a good/balanced team.of course any player's numbers would drop somewhat but he'd still light it up.his other skills are underated too.I miss Ricky being a Celtic!
