<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You missed one thing: J-Rich is our #1 or #2 scorer (or he should be) and is a starter. Ike is not.</div>I didn't miss it, I just reject that kind of reasoning. It's the same sort of reasoning that Monty used last year to justify starting Foyle, Murphy, Fisher, and Dunleavy over younger, better players. They played simply because they were starters, and some put up stats (albeit somewhat empty stats when inspected). But it didn't help them win many games. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, they play different positions, but when you think about it, who is more valuable to the team? J-Rich. It doesn't add value to the team or player when you sit him.</div>It doesn't add value to the team to have a guy playing 41 minutes and shooting 21% from the field either. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, perhaps it didn't add value to play him that long THIS game, but if he didn't play as much as he did, it may take more games to get him back to where he should be.</div>That may be the case, but what's wrong with giving JRich say 20-25 minutes until he's feeling a bit better? Again, it very nearly cost them the game (and should have). Even if you're OK with him getting 41 minutes, he has no business throwing up 19 shots when he was just ice cold, especially the 7 three-pointers. Of all coaches, I'd expect Nelson to be the one to shut that down in a hurry, but he didn't. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Unfortunately for Ike, there's a bit more competition for his role/position and he has never added as much value as J-Rich has. Maybe someday he will and at that time, he may get as many minutes as J-Rich did in the same situation.</div>In general, that's true, however I think that the present condition of these two players changes the equation, and a good coach should make some adjustments until they're back to normal. I don't see how you can argue that in this game Ike was by far the more valuable player.
<div class="quote_poster">philsmith75 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">JRich 4-19, 1-7 from 3pt land!!! Damn, never in a million years is he ever going to be a shooter that justifies jacking up 7 3s. When he came out of college he was a slasher/leaper. That's what he is and I wish he would admit that to himself. And a big fat 0 FTs. That's just awful.</div> He averaged over 6 3-point field goal attempts last season and shot 38% which is very good compared to other elite scorers in the league. Its been rough but as long as he stays healthy he'll eventually get back to his old form and make those open shots and layups he was missing tonight.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see how you can argue that in this game Ike was by far the more valuable player.</div> I'm not. But in the long run, J-Rich will be more valuable. Often when I play bball with guys who I know are good shooters but are having a rough shooting game, I will tell them to keep shooting. There's really no way around it. Shooters/scorers like J-Rich NEED to shoot in order to get their rythm back. I don't think my reasoning is the same as Monty. This is J-Rich we're talking about. He's paid and expected to be a star. You don't sit those type of players when they're trying to work their self back into game shape. There's a reason Nellie didn't take him out of the game and it in fact coincides with all of my points
While J-Rich may have potentially lost us the game, he didn't. Think about it, tonight's performance by J-Rich can't get any worse, can it? I think he made all the right shots, they simply didn't go in because he was not in shape. I would love nothing more than Ike to get more minutes if his production will continue to be like it was in this game, but he has to earn it, where J-Rich already has earned it.
You really could tell in watching the game on j-rich's first two shots, both were short front rim and he never seemed to really have his legs under him all game. I don't know what Ike did that got Nellie so hot and angry at him that he got yanked in one minute in the second half. He travelled backing his man down...didnt seem that bad. He played well in the second half and really aside from Biedrins and Baron played the best minutes. Yeah Baron hit that fade away base line shot, which was huge, but i think i have read complaints on that shot. Not exactly a high per centage shot. It was clear though at least for this game, if we were going to win this BAron was going to do it for us. No one stepped up and hit any big shots down the stretch and everyone deferred to baron. As to Jason getting so many minutes, i have to think that Nellie hoped he would find his game somewhere along the way and with Ellis playing poorly/injured he had no choice .... though i wish Nellie would bring in Roberson instead of Mcleod. though the trade off defense for offense is obvious, mclang isnt much of an offensive player though he certainly takes shots like he is. The final shot by Pierce .... found himself triple teamed by jason, Mp and dunleavy with BAron reaching in at the center of the key at the free throw line. Jason got the final grab of the ball and pierce never got a shot off. They did a jump ball with .06 seconds left ... no one gaining possesion before the clock ran out.
http://www.derrickpapp.com/clips/warriors/0607/1220/bos.avi Clips from the game from gumby (dif forum). First qtr not included. You gotta admire Diogu's footwork, it's amazing. *edit
Was too busy and missed the game. Just saw the highlights. Sounds like the Warriors melted down again in the second half, but hung on with some super plays. I hope Ike continues to get better. He does have fantastic footwork and moves in close and with a defender on him. Was there some kind of argument between him and Nelson?
<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Was there some kind of argument between him and Nelson?</div> That seems to be the word. One word was that Nelson was angry with Ike's D in the zone defense. But I hope Ike gets more minutes. More Ike and less Mike.
Mike D found Ike a few times, which was displaying excellent court sense because he recognized the mismatch inside. Mike + Ike could be nice chemistry if Mike could shoot better. But the guy just can't knock down those shots in limited touches, it seems. If we didn't have Mike Jr, it'd be harder to play team basketball that's for sure, so I do appreciate his smarts. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the only thing he can probably do exceptionally well in the nba, except for maybe taking a charge. He's a good ballhandler for his size, but when was the last time he beat anybody with his handle in halfcourt? Plus, what good is size if he doesn't use it. He's a 6'10 or 6'9 nothing when it comes to post skills. Even guys like Keith Van Horn had some post game, but Dunleavy has none it seems. And what good does it do when he can shoot over smaller players, but cannot knock down the open jumper outside of 20 feet.
Anyone else notice how similar this game was to last year's game vs. the Celtics? I recall the Warriors scoring with a few seconds left in the game and instead of Pierce calling a timeout he tried to push it up court before the Warriors could set their defense and Baron and JR ended up trapping him at midcourt and gang raping him until the buzzer rang. In a fit of joy J-Rich was bouncing Baron's head off the court (thats the most memorable part, I'm not even totally sure if it was the Celtics but I'm fairly sure it was). As for Ike, yes he's amazing to watch work in the post. He seems to have more technique and more moves than even the best post players in the league, you never see Duncan pivoting and pump faking that patiently, you definitely don't see Shaq doing it. It seems like he has absolutely no weaknesses offensively and even though he has a very smooth shot hes constantly trying to get the ball as close to the rim as possible. I'm hoping the argument he had with Nelson wasn't a big deal but hasn't he also been yelling back at Baron when Baron giving him an earful like he does to a lot of the younger players? From everything I've heard about him he seems like a great team guy but you never know, he may be a bit too accustomed to being The Man on his college and AAU teams and not know how to handle being a lowly role player in the NBA. Anyway, I just hope he continues to improve his defense and rebounding because if he can stay on the floor and get consistent touches hes a guy who can get 15/8 every night, maybe more if the team struggles to make shots for themselves.
<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, that's harsh for someone just getting back into a lineup because of a knee injury. As long as the knee keeps getting healthier, so will the rest of his game. It's obvious that this injury/surgery has setup him back significantly but I think when his game is on, most definely is shooting seven 3's justified. Ever since he's been in the league, he has worked on improving his overall game. There's no reason why he should revert back to what he was coming out of college...that won't prolong his career at all. Serious injuries are often good things for players who rely soley on their athletic ability. It forces them to let the game come to them and not exert so much energy. Great players are efficient with their abilities. It's up to the coach to regulate minutes vs. fatigue.</div> A professional understands that if he's hurting, just getting back, you play to your limitations. Letting the game come to you means not forcing it. 1-7? When is it going to register, "you're not on tonight, maybe someone else should be jacking it up"? I'm not saying JRich is a gunner or a selfish player. If there's one thing I've admired, its his effort to win and drive to make the Warriors better. However, his primary fault, is that he does not understand that he's not Ray Allen. His shot selection is like Ray Allen, but he's not a pure shooter. He's a career 34% from 3. Last year he was 38%. Yet he shoots like he's Kyle Korver, a 3 pt specialist. He's not. He's got a special ability to jump and be explosive off the ball, that's what got him to the NBA, that's what is going to make him a better player, until he improves his ball-handling.
phil i agree with you about a player recognizing when his game is not on.... but i also thought it was a situation where he saw that no one was stepping up besides Baron and he tried to step up. I can't fault J-rich. I think of Mcleod who comes in the game jacking up shots and it seems to me most don't even have a chance. Something in his form or release just seems off.
[quote name='custodianrules2;735413']Mike D found Ike a few times, which was displaying excellent court sense because he recognized the mismatch inside. Mike + Ike could be nice chemistry if Mike could shoot better. But the guy just can't knock down those shots in limited touches, it seems. If we didn't have Mike Jr, it'd be harder to play team basketball that's for sure, so I do appreciate his smarts. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the only thing he can probably do exceptionally well in the nba, except for maybe taking a charge. He's a good ballhandler for his size, but when was the last time he beat anybody with his handle in halfcourt? Plus, what good is size if he doesn't use it. He's a 6'10 or 6'9 nothing when it comes to post skills. Even guys like Keith Van Horn had some post game, but Dunleavy has none it seems. And what good does it do when he can shoot over smaller players, but cannot knock down the open jumper outside of 20 feet.[/QUOTE Cus, actually he beat Allen off the dribble with a smooth behind the back move in the first half. Unfortunately, he tried the very same move in the second half and Pierce read it, picked him clean leading to a Celtic bucket. It happens, but is rare. My issue with Dunleavy has been his recent seemingly nonchalance with the ball. Unforced turnovers, dribbling it off himself (which he nearly repeated the same move twice) and his one handed passes. For a guy supposedly grounded in fundamentals he sure doesnt take care of the ball well. And as someone pointed out, he does seem to yell down his team mates when a pass goes stray.
<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">[quote name='custodianrules2;735413']Mike D found Ike a few times, which was displaying excellent court sense because he recognized the mismatch inside. Mike + Ike could be nice chemistry if Mike could shoot better. But the guy just can't knock down those shots in limited touches, it seems. If we didn't have Mike Jr, it'd be harder to play team basketball that's for sure, so I do appreciate his smarts. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the only thing he can probably do exceptionally well in the nba, except for maybe taking a charge. He's a good ballhandler for his size, but when was the last time he beat anybody with his handle in halfcourt? Plus, what good is size if he doesn't use it. He's a 6'10 or 6'9 nothing when it comes to post skills. Even guys like Keith Van Horn had some post game, but Dunleavy has none it seems. And what good does it do when he can shoot over smaller players, but cannot knock down the open jumper outside of 20 feet.[/QUOTE Cus, actually he beat Allen off the dribble with a smooth behind the back move in the first half. Unfortunately, he tried the very same move in the second half and Pierce read it, picked him clean leading to a Celtic bucket. It happens, but is rare. My issue with Dunleavy has been his recent seemingly nonchalance with the ball. Unforced turnovers, dribbling it off himself (which he nearly repeated the same move twice) and his one handed passes. For a guy supposedly grounded in fundamentals he sure doesnt take care of the ball well. And as someone pointed out, he does seem to yell down his team mates when a pass goes stray.</div> Yeah, I pointed out in another thread how he can be frustrating. I like his game, but the results aren't there if his team ain't there. The warriors do not have very many star players, so it is difficult for him to step up when he's not really a star or a great shot right now. His true value is teamwork and versatility, but with his speed and shooting, I wonder if his handle will truly be any good in halfcourt... He's not quite Lamar Odom for top ballhandling 6'10 small forward. It's like, Dun can handle the ball, but he is worried about the speed of the defenders or what his teammates might do that he jacks up. When Dunleavy has tried to be aggressive he sometimes turns the ball over or he runs into people. Which is unfortunate because at the college level, he had other stars to defer to and he didn't have to make a lot of things happen by moving with the ball. I'm a little bit concerned of how we can get more ballhandling + size + athleticism on the perimeter without getting rid of Jrich or getting another player like Pietrus who isn't very sharp on teamplay or understanding plays. I can see why Dun would get mad sometimes because we have a lot of young players who just don't know how to play good team ball right now. Both Jrich and Dunleavy were fortunate to have been on excellent teams in college, but maybe these two don't fit together. Dunleavy doesn't really emulate a guard that well. Jrich is kind of shrimpy for small forward and he is mostly known for his post game and heavy contact finishes rather than his drives, passes, or shooting off the dribble (he is decent at all of this, though because of his hardwork). I like these two players and they were drafted high for a reason, but teams with less talent get to the playoffs by playing like a team and filling all the position roles. Pau, Battier, Jason Williams, they all do the things their position is supposed to do when Memphis was perenially 8th seed. Yet we could not replicate the success of that small market team because of which players we tried to collect or build around. I hope with our young players we can do a better job like they did. Going back to Dunleavy... that is good he was able to make some nice moves. I remember his best game was when he took James Posey to school in multiple ways. Halfcourt or open floor he torched Posey using his fluid handles. But, I think it was mostly because Dunleavy was using so many pumpfakes and jab steps that Posey had to adjust his defensive footwork to play the angle. But if Posey did not respect Dunleavy's shot, he'd probably back off and he would not worry about Dunleavy trying to drive against an angle he can't make.
What makes it more difficult for Dunleavy to handle the ball and initiate the offense is when he is out on the perimeter and defended by a guard. In the Boston game he was defended by Delonte West in the fourth which is tough match up for him if he is expected to drive by him. Not to mention his lack of a post game which allows teams to put the small guard on him in the first place. I did like Mike's aggressiveness throughout the game even if in the second half he played terrible. I'm glad he took those shots (excluding the late three pointer when they were up one point) when he was open instead of passing them up even if he was not making them (I think 1 of 6 after a 3-3 start in the first half(2 layups and a baseline jumper). I think that will bode well for him and the team later in the season. He just needs to get comfortable, which is why I don't mind J-rich going 4-19. Last year he hit those types of shots at a good percentage and this will bode well for the team in the later in season. He's the guy that will give the warriors an extra scorer late in the fourth once he gets healthy. It will make the offense more reliable when the D clamps down in the fourth.
I wish Dunleavy was as good as an outside shooter as Mickael Pietrus or the likes. That would make his game that much better and dangerous. I don't think Mike Dunleavy has ever been a good NBA ball handler. He is not good enough to be a PG and he is not a very good quick decision maker. Also I see him shoot a lot of ill-advised shots. Sometimes I think he gets fed up with others shooting outside/bad shots so he gets into a funk once in a while here he pitches in with more bad shot selections. Just as the Delonte West on Mike Dunleavy proves, Dunleavy succeeds or disappears based on who is guarding him. Other factors are if he is in a groove and whether he is getting to the free throw line. Otherwise Dunleavy is just another Warrior to like, to hate, to love and to give us more frustration. As for the team: There is something to say about team ball or the lack there of when we look at recent history including the changes of this organization in this decade. First it was Arenas/Murphy/Jamison, then Jason/Dunleavy/Murphy, next season new head coach and later that season Baron Davis; the season after that it is Baron/Jason/Dunleavy/Murphy, and now it is another new coach and Baron/Ellis/Mickael/Andris who are the main players, at least so far (of course because of injuries and such). But yeah, basically nobody on the Warriors is a good team player, be it young or old. This is not to say that the team cannot develope together and play good team-basketball. It is just going to take some time. I think Muss asked for about 50 games before getting impatient with him. I suppose we can give Nelson some more time. I think he has done a good job so far.
