<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bad things? Chuck Hayes is a REBOUNDER. So when Howard scores more points and outrebounds him then what else are we lookin at? Howard's defense has been good, as of last game when he did a better job on Gasol. Howard is the better player, and the more you actually look at them the more it's obvious.</div> The rebounds have something to do with JHo's minutes. Also, lately hes been rebounding much better than what is expected of him (If you don't believe me, check his stats over his entire career). As I said in an earlier post, Hayes strength doesnt lie in his individual play, but rather how he improves his teammates. He plays considerably better when both Yao and Tmac are on the floor. Basically he is a great compliment with our superstars. JHo's strength is that he can step up when our stars are injured and the rest of the team is not producing. I see JHo as more of an individual player and Hayes as a team player (a lot of the screens we score from is set up by Hayes). Hayes made some outstanding offensive rebounds in that game against Memphis. Chuck Hayes can not guard Gasol effectively as he can guard others. It not so much that hes a bad defender, but the height gap is too great. Gasol isn't quicker than Hayes (who is much quicker than JHo).
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Howard's defense has been good, as of last game when he did a better job on Gasol.</div> Juwan actually gave up more points to Gasol last game than Chuck, you know. He forced some misses, to his credit, but in the last couple minutes of the game he allowed him to score several points. Twice he just gave him the baseline -- first time it resulted in a flagrant foul by Battier, and the second time it was an uncontested dunk. In the fourth quarter, you said Chuck was getting abused by Gasol. Not really. First play, Chuck stole the ball on the entry pass. Second play, Gasol got an And-1 -- good move. One play constitutes getting abused now? Juwan reentered the game and he was mostly guarding Gasol the rest of the way. All the points Gasol scored in the fourth quarter thereafter was off of Juwan. Juwan did do a better job on Gasol in the first half, though, compared to Chuck. But I would say that Chuck really only messed up twice while defending Gasol. He allowed him to score on the right block too easily on one play in the first quarter. And he gave up that And-1 in the fourth quarter. Besides that, he played good defense. Gasol drew a cheap foul from the ref on one play, and he just hit a tough shot in the lane with a hand right in his face on another play. I thought Chuck's help defense was more active and effective throughout the game. Juwan screwed up on pick and roll defense a couple times early in the game. I don't want to nitpick Juwan too much for his play yesterday, though. Overall, he played very well. Chuck did what he always does -- he made a bunch of hustle plays, he played effective, aggressive defense and forced multiple turnovers, and (unfortunately) he fouled a lot. Both played their roles well, and Juwan in particular gave us a huge lift on the offensive end when our overall team defense wasn't as effective as it usually is.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan actually gave up more points to Gasol last game than Chuck, you know. He forced some misses, to his credit, but in the last couple minutes of the game he allowed him to score several points. Twice he just gave him the baseline -- first time it resulted in a flagrant foul by Battier, and the second time it was an uncontested dunk. In the fourth quarter, you said Chuck was getting abused by Gasol. Not really. First play, Chuck stole the ball on the entry pass. Second play, Gasol got an And-1 -- good move. One play constitutes getting abused now?</div> No, one play doesn't constitutes getting abused. But he had Hayes off balance all night. Hayes couldn't hold him without fouling him because his lack size and length. Gasol is a very good player, so I give him the benefit. But overrall Howard played him better, especially in the 4th quarter. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan reentered the game and he was mostly guarding Gasol the rest of the way. All the points Gasol scored in the fourth quarter thereafter was off of Juwan.</div> Obcourse.....After Hayes fouled out early in the 4th quarter. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan did do a better job on Gasol in the first half, though, compared to Chuck. But I would say that Chuck really only messed up twice while defending Gasol. He allowed him to score on the right block too easily on one play in the first quarter. And he gave up that And-1 in the fourth quarter. Besides that, he played good defense. Gasol drew a cheap foul from the ref on one play, and he just hit a tough shot in the lane with a hand right in his face on another play.</div> Not so fast, ur missing the play where he fouled out on. The one where he got caught playin catch up and reached in on Gasol. It was unnecessary and foolish, but what we've come to expect from Hayes. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I thought Chuck's help defense was more active and effective throughout the game. Juwan screwed up on pick and roll defense a couple times early in the game.</div> So did Hayes. But that strip Howard had on Gasol was big in the 4th quarter. I notice you made no mention of that either. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't want to nitpick Juwan too much for his play yesterday, though. Overall, he played very well. Chuck did what he always does -- he made a bunch of hustle plays, he played effective, aggressive defense and forced multiple turnovers, and (unfortunately) he fouled a lot. Both played their roles well, and Juwan in particular gave us a huge lift on the offensive end when our overall team defense wasn't as effective as it usually is.</div> Unfortunatley he fouled out? He does this FAR too often. His foul trouble is something we can depend on night in and night out. Some fouls are respectable, some are foolish. He's gonna have to stop hackin if he wants more playin time lol.
I think our PF worries are gone for now with Hayes, J-Hoe, and Battier taking all the minutes. If Novak can bulk up, I say we are fine for another 6-8 years. We just need a backup center who has height, can bang, and rebound.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, one play doesn't constitutes getting abused. But he had Hayes off balance all night. Hayes couldn't hold him without fouling him because his lack size and length. Gasol is a very good player, so I give him the benefit. But overrall Howard played him better, especially in the 4th quarter.</div> Chuck let Gasol score once in the fourth quarter (the and-1 play). Juwan allowed Gasol to score on at least 3 or 4 occasions, particularly in the last few minutes of the game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not so fast, ur missing the play where he fouled out on. The one where he got caught playin catch up and reached in on Gasol. It was unnecessary and foolish, but what we've come to expect from Hayes. </div> You're remembering it wrong. He fouled Swift, not Gasol. He was hedging towards Gasol who was posting up Juwan. Swift cut behind him and McGrady didn't rotate fast enough. Chuck should have been more alert on that play, but really responsibility should be shared between him and McGrady. Arguably Juwan as well, since it was his man (Gasol) that Chuck was helping on. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So did Hayes. But that strip Howard had on Gasol was big in the 4th quarter. I notice you made no mention of that either. </div> What pick and roll did Chuck screw up on? I didn't mention the Juwan strip (which was big, I agree) because you had already mentioned it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Unfortunatley he fouled out? He does this FAR too often. His foul trouble is something we can depend on night in and night out. Some fouls are respectable, some are foolish. He's gonna have to stop hackin if he wants more playin time lol.</div> I agree to an extent. He's going to naturally foul more than Juwan, because he's a more aggressive, active defender. He forces more missed shots as a result, but he'll also foul more. The key for Chuck is to find the right balance between being active and also staying disciplined. He tends to use his hands a little too much, for instance. The league is calling those kind of fouls much more closely (and the refs definitely do have a bias against younger, "unproven" players).
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree to an extent. He's going to naturally foul more than Juwan, because he's a more aggressive, active defender. He forces more missed shots as a result, but he'll also foul more. The key for Chuck is to find the right balance between being active and also staying disciplined. He tends to use his hands a little too much, for instance. The league is calling those kind of fouls much more closely (and the refs definitely do have a bias against younger, "unproven" players).</div> Or maybe he's UNDERSIZED at the PF/C positions. Could that be it?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Or maybe he's UNDERSIZED at the PF/C positions. Could that be it?</div> Size is a factor, but certainly not the only one. There are oversized players that foul a lot as well. Last year, the following players lead the league in fouls per minute: Jerome James (7'0), John Edwards (7'0), Estaban Batista (6'10), Pape Snow (6'10), and D.J. Mbenga (7'0). Chuck doesn't get called for fouls simply because he's small. It's because his niche on the team is playing aggressive defense and going after loose balls and rebounds -- he's naturally going to foul a lot. The more experience he gets, the better he'll be at doing those things while reducing his foul-rate. He'll probably always be foul-prone, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great defender for us regardless. In my opinion (and the opinion of multiple NBA scouts, as reported by the Rockets beat writer), he's already a very good defender despite the foul trouble.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Size is a factor, but certainly not the only one. There are oversized players that foul a lot as well. Last year, the following players lead the league in fouls per minute: Jerome James (7'0), John Edwards (7'0), Estaban Batista (6'10), Pape Snow (6'10), and D.J. Mbenga (7'0).</div> Those are mostly scrubs who won't be in the NBA in ten years. Irrevelant <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck doesn't get called for fouls simply because he's small. It's because his niche on the team is playing aggressive defense and going after loose balls and rebounds -- he's naturally going to foul a lot. The more experience he gets, the better he'll be at doing those things while reducing his foul-rate. He'll probably always be foul-prone, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great defender for us regardless. In my opinion (and the opinion of multiple NBA scouts, as reported by the Rockets beat writer), he's already a very good defender despite the foul trouble.</div> Stop makin these silly excuses. The fact is, a player 6'5 playin the PF/C position is goin to have problems with quicker, bigger players. Especially being he's not much of an athlete at his height. Bigger players post him up, quicker players go around him forcing him to either karate chop them, or bump them into the first row (i personally prefer his karate chop move). In my opinion, he was overly hyped by you, and just about everybody else. He has the capabilities to be a decent defender, but he fouls extremley too damn much.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop makin these silly excuses. The fact is, a player 6'5 playin the PF/C position is goin to have problems with quicker, bigger players. Especially being he's not much of an athlete at his height. Bigger players post him up, quicker players go around him forcing him to either karate chop them, or bump them into the first row (i personally prefer his karate chop move).</div> He's rarely outquicked. Size and lack of great leaping ability is a factor, though. That's partly why he plays defense the way he does -- very aggressive, physical, and close to the offensive player. Sometimes players can go around him because he's defending so close to the player. But that really doesn't happen that often. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In my opinion, he was overly hyped by you, and just about everybody else. He has the capabilities to be a decent defender, but he fouls extremley too damn much.</div> If I recall, my initial comment way back that started this whole thing is I said that Chuck deserved a shot to be in the starting lineup. You thought I was insane for suggesting it. Well, it happened, and while Yao and McGrady were healthy the numbers showed we had by far the best starting lineup in the league (in terms of point differential). And in the games Chuck missed when Juwan replaced him in the starting lineup, our starters didn't play nearly as well. Those are the facts. Outside of citing stats, I didn't say anything regarding Chuck's abilities that wasn't already said by NBA coaches and scouts. You, on the other hand, said he was a scrub that hardly deserved to be in the league. If I overestimated him, it wasn't nearly to the degree that you underestimated him.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He's rarely outquicked. Size and lack of great leaping ability is a factor, though. That's partly why he plays defense the way he does -- very aggressive, physical, and close to the offensive player. Sometimes players can go around him because he's defending so close to the player. But that really doesn't happen that often.</div> Beg to differ. He's not that quick and the only thing that really makes him a decent defender (on some nights) is he can get lower on his opponents and strip them. Other than that, he's goin to foul his little heart out. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If I recall, my initial comment way back that started this whole thing is I said that Chuck deserved a shot to be in the starting lineup. You thought I was insane for suggesting it. Well, it happened, and while Yao and McGrady were healthy the numbers showed we had by far the best starting lineup in the league (in terms of point differential). And in the games Chuck missed when Juwan replaced him in the starting lineup, our starters didn't play nearly as well. Those are the facts.</div> My point was if we're gonna win a championship, it's not gonna be with Chuck Hayes starting at the PF. Teams like San Antonio and Dallas are gonna make us look very bad if we're gonna give a offensive liability big minutes. In my opinion, Howard should be starting. If I were JVG, I would've dropped Hayes and got a bigger athletic PF who can run the court. Howard is a good shooter, but we needed a guy with length to play beside him. Rebounding on this team isn't the problem, it's offense. Since our defense is always gonna be great, it only makes sense to get players who can give you quick offense. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Outside of citing stats, I didn't say anything regarding Chuck's abilities that wasn't already said by NBA coaches and scouts. You, on the other hand, said he was a scrub that hardly deserved to be in the league. If I overestimated him, it wasn't nearly to the degree that you underestimated him.</div> Well, not quite a scrub. But definatley not in the same league as Juwan Howard. Howard can be more of a difference maker in the long run.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, not quite a scrub. But definatley not in the same league as Juwan Howard. Howard can be more of a difference maker in the long run.</div> The problem is criteria for judgement in what determines a difference maker. You obviously put a lot of emphasis in individual stats and points and think little to nothing about teamwork. JHo is a prime example of that. While his individual def is mediocre, his team defence is quite poor. Chuck Hayes is the ultimate team player. On offence, compare how much JHo moves without the ball to how much Hayes moves without the ball. Also compare to the number of screens each player sets. Mcgrady gets a lot of good drives to the bucket because of Hayes. You obviously undervalue Hayes offensive production. THe problem isnt that has lacks offence, the problem is what you constitute as offense. Scoring points isn't the only criteria to a good offense, but helping teammates scores is equally as important. 2 points is 2 points regardless of who does it, as long as you score within that possession. There are several factors to offense. 1. Assists (both Hayes and Jho arent strong in this. 2. Offensive rebounds (one of Hayes strong points). 3. Setting screens to make it easier for your scorer to score (Hayes is considerably better at this). 4. Scoring yourself (JHo is better at this than Hayes). 5. Movement without the ball (Hayes has the advantage here again). This is an important aspect that causes the defenders to constantly move and shift. This is also the only reason why Hayes can score at all. This ties into the screens portion. On the defensive end, Durvasa pretty much covers all the points I wanted to cover. Fact is part of the reason why Hayes fouls out so much is the same reason why hes a good defender. JHo is going to take more of the spotlight simply because the things that Hayes excells at isnt completely covered by traditional stats. As I said before, JHo is an individual player and Hayes is a team player. When we have McGrady, Yao, Battier, and Head, wouldn't a team/role player benefit the team better? If you are one to think that fitting 5 iverson minded players on one team would be a "great" team, then i guess there really is no point arguing with you.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> My point was if we're gonna win a championship, it's not gonna be with Chuck Hayes starting at the PF. Teams like San Antonio and Dallas are gonna make us look very bad if we're gonna give a offensive liability big minutes. In my opinion, Howard should be starting. </div> But there have been many championship teams that started players who were "offensive liabilities". I get it, you don't think Chuck is good enough at his strengths (rebounding, defensive, etc.) to make up for his offensive limitations. I disagree, and I think we can be a very potent team even against other elite teams with Chuck starting as long as we have enough fire power from the rest of the players. And with Yao and McGrady on the court, we'll have that. No point going back and forth in this thread. Let's just agree to disagree for now, and see what happens the rest of the way.
