hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

What about the Clinton Administration's occupation of Kosovo (continued by Bush)? Or every administration's since 1945 occupation of Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.? Which, last I checked, STILL had more troops allocated that Afghanistan and Iraq combined. Or the French in Chad? Or...forget it.

Must be for all that German and Japanese Oil. Oh wait, projecting our ideals on others. No, wait...must be something I can't even figure out.Now that's lower than scum. How dare people with access to much more information than I make an executive decision like that!?

 

Not my favorite "past time". Correcting spelling and homophonic errors is much higher. I personally just claimed that my sin was the reason for my problems, but you probably didn't read that.

At my pre-marital counseling, the guy told me that by refraining from the use of "always" and "never", a lot of arguments would not happen. Because, technically, the first Christian that doesn't claim people not having Jesus is the reason for their problems shows you to be uninformed or a liar. Maybe that would be a good tack to take?

My God tells me to tell people about Jesus. Think of it like a mailman with a Publisher's clearinghouse sweepstakes form. I'm told to deliver the mail by my "boss". I don't care if, once you get the mail, you send it in and win a million, burn it, throw it away, etc. Not my problem or concern.

 

Which silly excuse did I use?

They make sense on a number of levels, including the one I just explained. If you choose not to believe, that's more than your right. It's incorrect to call them logically and morally ludicrous, since the only framework of morality you have is based upon a) your own desires, or b) societal mores, which are generally heavily based in religion. It seems as if you're either saying that your concept of morality is the correct one, at the expense of 6B people living currently and untold billions from the past, or my ludicrous ones are, which multiple civilizations and countries were based upon.

And where are you getting these attributes of God? "Morally transcendent beneficent", "cruel jealous vindictive tyrant", "perfectly loving"...it's hard to discuss with you when I'm talking about God and you're talking about some made-up amalgamation of things you've heard.

 

It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of actions. Their actions are not "holy", therefore God (as stated in the Bible) cannot dwell with them forever, unless they have believed that Jesus took their punishment for them. Therefore, they go to hell (eternal separation from God). It doesn't matter if they don't conform to some understanding of right and wrong you think they may have. You're not the gatekeeper. God is.

Are you saying belief in Santa and belief in God are similar? If so, I can't continue this discussion rationally with you. To answer your question: yes. I saw my parents put packages out at Christmas and saw that there wasn't a fat guy that came down my chimney. I haven't been seen that the 6-day creation has been disproven (your discussion aside, for now), and I haven't seen evidences that God is a liar. It's actually easy for me: My faith in God is based upon the premises that a) everything He says in the Bible is true, and b) He will do for me what He promised in the Bible. I'm not unreasonable: Once either of those is proven wrong, then I will have no choice but to attempt to understand another reality. Amazingly enough, though, no one has. However, instead of faith in God like I have, others (such as yourself, it seems) place your faith in dubious scientists and their methods, secular philosophies, etc.

For instance, I'm excited to go see "Lucy" the fossil that'll be up here in Seattle soon. I personally don't believe she is 3.2 million years old, because I believe the earth is around 7000 years old. That won't stop me from going to see the fossil, but it also won't stop me (hopefully) from asking questions about her and her methods of dating, where she was found, why she isn't whole, why she doesn't have family around, etc. That kind of stuff fascinates me.

 

For more on the "attributes of God", by a guy who says it much better than I.

http://www.amazon.com/Attributes-God-Arthur-W-Pink/dp/0801069890

Like I said, if you don't believe in this "mumbo-jumbo", I'm not trying to convince you. But you seem intelligent enough to realize that basing the foundation of your argument on a faulty knowledge of the subject isn't conducive to having a discussion or winning a point.

 

This isn't scientific, so I hesitate to say it, but it's the truth (for me, anyway). God gave it to me. I didn't get born with it. I didn't believe in it until I was 17.

For one thing, as much as I enjoy talking to you Minstrel, I'm sure that if I got to know you I could at some point find somewhere where you were wrong, or lied, etc. It's human nature to do so. Once that happens, you can't claim "perfection".

I have not had a calling to believe in the Hindu Vedas.

 

True statement, if I didn't believe that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Exactly. I think I've been pretty clear that I'm not trying to change anyone's minds to follow me or Christ. I try to speak up when I see misconceptions, etc. I attempt not to do it in an inflammatory matter, b/c I believe that discussions like this are helpful. Even if you don't believe in the things I say, or think I'm stupid for believing them, you should know pretty well by now where I'm coming from. God is Truth. All I can do is be the deliverer of His Good News. If people choose not to listen, that's on them.

You're stepping now into something that's pretty controversial for those that don't believe, or those that think they do but not every word. It's called predestination in general, and "effectual calling vs. reprobation" in specific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_(Calvinism) (for an overview) I believe in the sovereignty of God, and that He can do whatever He wants. I believe that the Bible says some won't be saved. But i have no idea who those are (and don't care), because my job is to tell people about Jesus and His death for us. Many don't like hearing that God deliberately chose not to save some. I can't speak for God on that. I can just relay what He says about it in the Bible, and what criticisms and responses have historically come from that.

 

Why can't a rational discussion have a resurrection as its foundation? And who is it "very important" for? You? I would submit that, of the two of us, I am attempting to be rational in my defense of what I believe and why. I'm trying very hard not to make generalities, attack other posters, or impose my beliefs on others. You're not going to change my mind about the attributes of God, even if you were a learned theologian, which it seems you're not. I'm not going to change your mind about God, b/c only He does that. What i'm trying to do is eliminate a bit of the misconception about what I believe to people who don't understand why I believe the way I do.

BTW: Mormons are by definition not Christians. To imply they are similar shows an ignorance of both Christian and Mormon doctrine.

Also: I don't "hate" anybody. Again, it seems like you're reaching in order to make this discussion contentious. Can you follow the examples of Crow and Minstrel to have a discussion without resorting to gross generalities, please?

 

Wow...ok.

1) Revelation 12:9 (which is in the Bible) says it was. And it was a serpent, not a snake.
2) Bible-believing Christians (like me, for one) do claim it's the truth. But the other truths of the Bible are that you go to hell (which doesn't burn, I don't think---you're confusing Milton and Dante for God) only if you don't believe that Jesus took the punishment of your sins for you. Not if you think the serpent was something else.
3) Fine, marriage defined by hate-filled Christians may be what you say. I'm not one of those. I personally don't like the thought of gay "marriage", but I'm not gay. The bible is pretty quiet on the matter. It does, however, say a lot about male homosexuality (not so much about female versions).
4) The teachings of God and the Bible are one and the same.