Height & Championships

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Tince, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    With the exception that he can see over a double team and/or is less impacted by a lengthy defender than someone who 6'-4". That's my whole point.
     
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  2. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    Having a 6'6 and 6'10 player double teaming someone is a lot different than them winning a Finals MVP. So I'm not really sure what your narrative is.
     
  3. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    The narrative is this:

    In playoff runs, you're going to have teams with way more time to gameplan. These gameplans typically involve taking away a teams #1 primary scoring option. It is my theory that an opponent will have to ability to employ more and effective options at reducing the a primary scoring option that is 6'-2" vs one that is 6'-9". I think this is why you see guys like Harden, Westbrook, and Curry win regular season MVPs but taller guys win Finals MVPs. I'm open to other theories to why only one 6'-2" player in the last 30 years has been a Finals MVP.
     
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  4. RoseCityRebel

    RoseCityRebel Member

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    Iggy “won” that Finals MVP primarily for his defense on LeBron.

    LeBron didn’t have a healthy Irving or Love and still averaged 36/13/9 and somehow took that series to 6 games. That was Iggy’s “great” defense.

    Not big on losing players being Finals MVP but LeBron was by far the MVP of that series. It’s 4 straight blowouts without him on the court. Well, they wouldn’t haven’t even made the Finals, that’s how valuable he was to that team.

    James/Mozgov/Dellavedova/Tristan Thompson/Shumpert started 5 out the 6 games. That’s a 15-win team at best without LeBron and it made it to Game 6 against a 67-win team.
     
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  5. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you the LBJ was the best player in that series. Which furthers my point: A team with a guy who is well above average height for his position is going to be at a major advantage over a team who's #1 option is at or below average height for his position. Iggy appears to be the outlier in that 10 year list for multiple reasons. He's also the shortest player on that list.

    The other 9 players are either above average height+reach for their position.
     
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  6. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    My answer would be that Lebron was in all but one of those series, so the MVP was either him, or the player guarding him (and/or succeeding despite Lebron's best defensive efforts) nearly every time.
     
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  7. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    Steph's playoff scoring wasn't neutralized. You have to use said 6'2 player in more creative ways than simply running pick n roll and isolating him, though.

    Guys like Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard would struggle against the type of defenses Dame faces, but theres reasons why they dont, and it's not due to them being taller.
     
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  8. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Correct, he was not. He had an MVP next to him in 2 of the 3 finals wins. 2 all-stars (one elite shooter, one elite player maker) and a finals MVP around him in the other. Would expect Dame to get less defensive attention if he had Durant, Klay, and Green on the court with him. You agree?

    Why do you think it's so rare for an NBA finals champion to have their best player be 6'-2"? Totally random that it rarely happens?
     
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  9. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Very possible. So with Lebron entering his 18th season, do you expect the majority or even any of the next 5 NBA champions to have someone under 6'-6" (average NBA height) be their best player?

    My guess is the next NBA champions will be teams that either have or can slow down guys like LBJ, AD, Leonard, Luka, Durant, and Giannis. I'd take that group over Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Dame, Kyrie, etc. I could be wrong though, I hope I'm wrong.
     
  10. TBpup

    TBpup Writing Team

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    Wings have been a huge part of success for years....and Giannis was available to put with Dame. Instead, Olshey duplicated what he already had and got another smallish scoring guard who didn't play defense. It shocks me that D69 knew ADAMANTLY months before the Draft that Antetokounmpo was WAY undervalued and Olshey (among others) completely missed. It's the duplication that bothers me. They had a small scoring guard....why select another when historically 2 small, scoring, no-defense guards hasn't won an NBA championship in what, 5 decades?

    It was so simple. I remember D69 and the usual gang being over for the Draft and as pick after pick went by and Giannis was still availble, we were beyond ecstatic. It would be the perfect balance, length, defense and a rim attacker to offset Dame's outside shooting, passing and court management.

    And then...ugh. Nice player, but you could just feel that it would destine the team to a decade of mediocrity....which is about what has happened.

    Olshy trying to outsmart history. Brutal!
     
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  11. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    Data points would be an easy explanation. Only one position is likely to see a player be 6'2" or less, while the other four positions almost always do. Then you have to take out tall PG's like Magic, and the pool of candidates for your stat is quickly sliding toward 10%.
     
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  12. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    The average NBA players is 6'6". 100% of the last 13 finals MVPs were 6'6" or over. Shouldn't we expect it to be 50/50 if height were a non-factor?
     
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  13. RoseCityRebel

    RoseCityRebel Member

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    Eh, the Blazers still had Aldridge then as the franchise player as a big and if you look back, CJ’s pick is validated considering the chumps taken ahead of him other than Oladipo, who is comparable to CJ.

    Blaming Olshey for picking CJ seems like revisionist history. That was a garbage draft.
     
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  14. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I think that Olshey was going for BPA. At the time we had a whole team around Aldridge and Dame that made sense and a good scoring option off the bench was too good to pass up. I didn't see a lot of mock drafts that had Giannis above CJ. However, I think Olshey should have long ago realized that the Dame/CJ back court experiment was not a success and that CJ has much more to give in other situations on other teams and we can get more value back for CJ because it is about a player or players that fit both ways over purely offensive talent and skills. That's right I said it CJ's game is just offensive and this team needs something more defensive or even better something balanced.
     
  15. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    LeBron and Jordan won a third of these MVPs your talking about.

    Would the Blazers be better if they had LeBron or Jordan instead of Lillard? Of course.

    I'm not sure how your "point" gives any insight or help to the Blazers. Sure they would have a better chance at winning a title if they had an MVP wing player like LeBron, Kawhi, or pre injury Durant.

    Wade won titles and was not a tall wing. Nash was an MVP of contending Suns teams that could've easily won titles. Tony Parker led the offense for multiple Spurs titles. Steph lead the offense for Warriors titles and the best record ever. Billups was a scoring PG for a title team.

    The NBA is different today that 10 years ago, teams are scoring more from the PG position whereas historically PG was more for facilitating SG or bigs. Its really a different game. So these 30 year trends have little meaning.

    If wings are the be all end all why didn't Boston make the finals with two great ones against Dragic? Why did the Clippers lose to a PG offense of Jamal Murry?
     
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  16. TBpup

    TBpup Writing Team

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    Not sure how that was revisionist. I shared what with thought (influenced by D69) and how we reacted during the Draft. That is turned out to be 100%.....not sure either of those is revisionist.
     
  17. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    because the Heat had the best wing in Butler, and they also had Crowder, Robinson, Herro, & Iggy, as well as the perimeter-inside ability of Adebayo. Miami had an elite wing, and they had better complementary wings with several solid-to-excellent defenders


    c'mon now....the Clippers lost because they are a flawed team with the flaw being bad chemistry & fit. That was obvious. And to say that the Nuggets have a PG offense is a little crazy considering they may have the best passing C of all time, and their offense features Jokic in high post and elbow sets. And of course, the Nuggets wilted against the Lakers because they didn't have anybody who could match up against the wing-like games of Lebron and AD

    Obviously, there are more templates to being a championship contender than just loading up on wings. But that doesn't mean there's a template out there that has little more than crappy, flawed wings. Compare Miami and Portland. The Heat have Butler, Crowder, Robinson, Iggy, Jones & Herro. Portland was trying to counter with Trent, Melo, & Hezonja. That's a laughable counter, even when you include the 6'3 CJ

    and yeah, I know the Blazers were missing Ariza and Hood. But Ariza, who is the best two-way version of a wing, is 35 years old, and Hood had a ruptured Achilles. Who knows what the future of those two will be. The point being that while a team does not have to go all-in on a loaded wing roster, they can't ignore it either. And they sure can't try and cheap-screw together a vet minimum and below average collection of wings and expect to compete for a title. Portland has invested too heavily in the Dame/CJ back court, and that's impeding them from being competitive at wing.
     
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  18. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    If 6'6" is the question, then yes. I was responding to your line about 6'2" guys, though.
     
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  19. kjironman1

    kjironman1 The big dog around here.

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    But But But Stotts.....
    You notice there is no reply to this.
     
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  20. Wizard Mentor

    Wizard Mentor Wizard Mentor

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    1) They were Tall, OK
    2) They could shoot
    3) They played with (or were) LBJ or Duncan, or played for one of these teams:
    ****Market Size Ranking Team
    1-2 New York Knicks / Brookyn Nets
    3-4 Los Angeles Lakers / Los Angeles Clippers
    5 Chicago Bulls
    6 Toronto Raptors
    7 Philadelphia 76ers
    8 Dallas Mavericks
    9 Washington Wizards
    10 Houston Rockets
    11 Golden State Warriors
    12 Atlanta Hawks
    13 Boston Celtics
    14 Phoenix Suns
    15 Detroit Pistons

    If you were to go back in time even more (even all of the way to 1980), you would find that the 1st 2 wouldn't hold up, but the third one would.

    #dropmic_lol
     

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