<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">You make a lot of valid points AllNet - there is only one question in my mind though: Are we building/trading just to make the playoffs and get bundled out in the first round each year, or are we building for a championship down the line at the expense of some short term pain. It can be a catch-22, in a way. I don't think Reef gets us any closer to a championship. Dwight Howard does, but I agree on the fact it's a lot to give up and what you give up you need a replace.</div> I'm afraid I'd really rather see us back in the playoffs first, and then to slowly get through it that way. The more success we have, the more fans will come watch, and the more attractive Seattle will be to players. Right now you don't see anyone saying "I'd like to play for the Sonics," right? But if we become a playoff regular (again) then that becomes more plausible. I wish I shared your faith in Howard, but come on.. Realistically we're talking about being at the bottom of the West until he develops, IF he ever develops.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm afraid I'd really rather see us back in the playoffs first, and then to slowly get through it that way. The more success we have, the more fans will come watch, and the more attractive Seattle will be to players. Right now you don't see anyone saying "I'd like to play for the Sonics," right? But if we become a playoff regular (again) then that becomes more plausible.</div> That's always the theory, I just don't see how this team is going to improve at the moment, short of Nick Collison and Luke Ridnour making big impacts in this league. You can say we need to make the playoffs first, but where is the real scope for improvement? I guess being a low market team really hurts us in this situation, as you can't really afford to be in the conference cellar. Maybe the deal would work better if we didn't give up Flip, or could keep Vlad and Bones of the #12 pick. On reflection we probably are giving up too much, but I still think the deal has potential and I hope it is explored. If you check out the 'Off-season Talk' thread, there's a couple of proposed trades to get the #3 pick off Chicago too, although the two frontcourt jewels may be gone by that pick.
I believe we are not as far away from greatness as you all think. We have the best 1,2, and 3 in the league if you include depth to the equation, just like Jordan and Pippen's bulls were. I know that Allen and Rashard are not Jordan and Pippen and don't play great defense, but wouldn't you guys agree that if a Zack Randolph or Amare Stoudamire fell into our laps that we would be up there with the greats? MAYBE, JUST MAYBE Collison is that man. MAYBE Al Jefferson, Rafeal Aroujo, or who knows even Peter John Ramos is that man. It's a longshot, but so was Zack Randolph being an 18th pick. We are one lucky pick away from being great, and on top of that we are young and improving, so we would compete for years. If it all doesn't work out with the big rookies, then stop dreaming and trade Ray for a proven big man (just before the trade de@dline) letting Murray out of his cage. I'd be satisfied with a 3 man rotation like Barry, Murray, and Ridnour at the 1 and 2 spots. Anyways... I don't like the trade. Let's just say that Howard is real good and is not a Kwame or Chandler deja vu. Who will he pass it to out of the post? Would you be happy with Murray and Ridnour being wide open for 3's all day? It would be more effective if we could keep one of the great shooters. If we trade Allen AND Barry, we would look like the Clippers who have Brand kicking it out to Maggete, Richardson, and Jaric. Pretty sad group of shooters compared to Barry/Daniels, Allen/Frahm, and Rashard/Radmanovic. On top of it all, Dwight Howard is not known to post up well and seems like a SAR at best.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cigawutwut:</div><div class="quote_post">On top of it all, Dwight Howard is not known to post up well and seems like a SAR at best.</div> Are you joking? Howard's strength isn't the low post, but he more than makes up for it in other areas of the game; athleticism, basketball IQ, floor vision, maturity, ball handling. The upside of this kid is absolutely massive. If he was Reef at best he wouldn't be being touted as an almost certain top 2 pick, given the upside of guys like Deng, Childress and Livingston. Also, my original point is it's a lot harder in today's league to find adequate big men then it is to find adequate shooters. If you want someone to kick it out to, just look for guys like Fred Hoiberg (who's been great for Minny) or even Kareem Rush. The good thing about this trade is it gives us cap space. Whether or not you spend that or save it from when Curry comes out of contract is a different question.
Supersonic and I have discussed this trade at length, and even though I was against totally clearing out the backcourt... keep in mind it's worth a look at gaining the frontcourt chip (with have two chances in Howard and Curry) then looking to the backcourt, rather than hedging your bets with a career-loser SAR.
^ Exactly, which brings it all back to how highly you rate Dwight (management do), Curry and whether or not you think it's worth taking a big risk. The general consensus around Chicago is Curry still has the potential to become a very good player, just not in Chicago. The Bulls have never had a lot of leadership in the post Jordan era too, with only mature college kids in Hinrich and Brand making an impact in the first couple of seasons they are there.
Nothing like the swift kick-in-the-ass that a trade provides, either. We all saw it with Ray last year, I'm sure Curry would pick up grandly if he was traded from his hometown. (Don't inform John Paxson of this, however. )
Reef at best he wouldn't be being touted as an almost certain top 2 pick, In this pathetic draft he would. Weren't Kwame Brown and Tyson Chandler also the next great thing? given the upside of guys like Deng, Childress and Livingston. The way I see it, Livingston is great and a lock for rookie of the year, but Childress is an overated chia pet, Deng is Reggie evans with range, and Okafurs got my grandpa's back. I may be wrong and trust me I have been before, but right now that's how I see it. but he more than makes up for it in other areas of the game; athleticism, basketball IQ, floor vision, maturity, ball handling. Then why not just put Rashard Lewis at power forward? We need a back to the basket player more than anything (assuming Collison is no good), and Howard does not fill that area. EVEN IF HE DID, wouldn't anyone be p!ssed that we that we lost Barry when Howard is kicking the ball out to meiocre shooters like Flip, Luke, and Daniels? Lose Daniels, keep Barry and this risk just might be worth taking(but I doubt it). The good thing about this trade is it gives us cap space. Whether or not you spend that or save it from when Curry comes out of contract is a different question. See what happens to the cap space when we have to resign Curry and Murray. Cap space=not a factor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cigawutwut:</div><div class="quote_post">In this pathetic draft he would. Weren't Kwame Brown and Tyson Chandler also the next great thing?</div> It's not a pathetic draft, it's just not very deep. The picks are likely to tail off after the lottery, with the rest of the picks anyone's guess. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The way I see it, Livingston is great and a lock for rookie of the year, but Childress is an overated chia pet, Deng is Reggie evans with range, and Okafurs got my grandpa's back. I may be wrong and trust me I have been before, but right now that's how I see it.</div> Livingston is far from a lock. he needs to put on weight before he's going to be able to play big minutes in this league. Deng has potentially the best all round game in the draft. He's probably come out a year early, but he has a superb mid range game, can penetrate, rebound, pass and handle the ball. Even mentioning Reggie Evans in the same sentence makes zero sense. I think you also make too much of Okafor's back. The main concern with me is his height, but he has the instincts and hops to deal with that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why not just put Rashard Lewis at power forward? We need a back to the basket player more than anything (assuming Collison is no good), and Howard does not fill that area.</div> Because Rashard has no post game, weighs 215 and doesn't have the strength of Howard. The only area Rashard has over Howard is shooting the rock. Howard's back to the basket game isn't bad either, it's just not developed. One season working with Jack Sikma, considering the kid's work ethic and maturity, would reap wonders IMO. Curry and Davis aren't exactly non factors inside either on the offensive end. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">See what happens to the cap space when we have to resign Curry and Murray. Cap space=not a factor.</div> James expires after next season, Booth and Davis the season after. In this deal Flip goes to the Clippers, anyway. We'd be in the same situation with Ray anyway and his extension.
One season working with Jack Sikma, considering the kid's work ethic and maturity, would reap wonders IMO. I thought the same thing about Jerome James. Howard is a preacher first, basketball player second which I respect but am not impressed by it. I would rather have a player like Kenyon Martin who doesn't know that the game is eternally meaningless. I repeat, EVEN IF HE DID, wouldn't you be p!ssed that we lost Barry when Howard is kicking the ball out to meiocre shooters like Jackson, Richardson, Luke, and Daniels? Lose Daniels, keep Barry and this risk just might be worth taking(but I doubt it). Even mentioning Reggie Evans in the same sentence makes zero sense. two 6'8" humble, hardworking players who were PF's in college should draw some comparison, wouldn't you say? Like I said I may be wrong, but right now that's how I see it. Flip goes to the Clippers, anyway I didn't catch that but it doesn't make it any better that you would replace Flip with Stephen Jackson. Every board I go to, everyone's so quick to say "trade flip" but I don't think we are using Flip's talent as an advantage if we do, especially for the guys people expect back. Flip was a "filler" in a trade before, but that was before anybody knew his talent.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cigawutwut:</div><div class="quote_post">I thought the same thing about Jerome James. Howard is a preacher first, basketball player second which I respect but am not impressed by it. I would rather have a player like Kenyon Martin who doesn't know that the game is eternally meaningless.</div> Jerome James is a lazy bastard who doesn't have a good work ethic. The fact that someone with his size and talent found it so hard to get into the league is a testament to that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I repeat, EVEN IF HE DID, wouldn't you be p!ssed that we lost Barry when Howard is kicking the ball out to meiocre shooters like Jackson, Richardson, Luke, and Daniels? Lose Daniels, keep Barry and this risk just might be worth taking(but I doubt it).</div> I don't want to lose Barry at all, and he would have to want to go to Chicago for this one to work anyway. I prefer the deal with Lewis and keeping Vlad and Barry. The main sticking point would be barry signing a deal knowing he'd be going to Chicago, and I doubt he'd do that anyway. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">two 6'8" humble, hardworking players who were PF's in college should draw some comparison, wouldn't you say? Like I said I may be wrong, but right now that's how I see it.</div> Have you ever seen Deng play? Reggie Evans was a force player in college, rebounding the ball and scoring mainly close to the basket and on putbacks. He was also undisciplined, being suspended for skipping classes and the like. Deng is a small forward in the league, and likely capable of playing both guard spots at times too. Also, if Reggie measures 6'8 then I'm a Queen of England. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't catch that but it doesn't make it any better that you would replace Flip with Stephen Jackson. Every board I go to, everyone's so quick to say "trade flip" but I don't think we are using Flip's talent as an advantage if we do, especially for the guys people expect back. Flip was a "filler" in a trade before, but that was before anybody knew his talent.</div> I don't want to trade Flip, but the Clippers are going to get a lot of good offers for that #2 pick. NBA scouts are very, very high on Dwight Howard.
Some other guards/shooters who are free agents this offseason (besides Q and S-Jax): Bobby Sura Morris Peterson Voshon Lenard Hedo Turkoglu Jon Barry DeShawn Stevenson Dion Glover Tyronne Lue
If we were to deal the big names in the offseason, this is what we should do: Ray Allen, Radmanovic to Chicago for Curry, davis, #3 then Daniels, #3, #35, #42 to Portland for Randolph, Q. Woods, #23 draft Luke Jackson resign Brent Barry Ridnour/Barry/Flip rotating at the 1 and 2 while Flip/Rashard/Jackson rotate at the 2 and 3. Then, you have Jackson/Rashard/Randolph rotating at the 3 and 4 with Randolph/Pot/Curry rotating at the 4 and 5. Two steps later, you have a solid team. Not bad at all. Not to mention, you have Luke and Luke back together. Barry/Rid/Morlende Flip/Barry/Jackson Rashard/Jackson Randolph/Potapenko Curry/Potapenko
I doubt Portland would give up Randolph for that. However, there are a couple of scenarios in the Off-Season Talk thread (stickied) involving obtaining Chicago's number 3 pick, which would open up a lot of options.
Sorry this was a few posts back, but how did anyone compare Deng and Reggie Evans? If you've ever seen Deng play that comparison wouldn't even be in your mind. I thought Reggie looks more like 6'7. Deng has a great mid-range game, he cna shoot from the outside, not a good outside shooter but can pass, rebound, play defense, block shots, steal, everything. Reggie in college scored of putbacks and hustle, and he also didn't block shots, but he wasn't on a team with as many good players as Deng is either.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post"> I thought Reggie looks more like 6'7.</div> If Reggie Evans was a legit 6'8, he would have been drafted. I'd say he's closer to 6'6.
It seems as if some Sonic fans (Supersonic) are willing to do any deal that can move us up in the draft to select Dwight Howard. Just about every team in the league is interested in bolstering their frontcourt and Howard could very well be a franchise type talent. But my understanding is that Howard's first preference would be to play for his hometown team, the Atlanta Hawks, and I wouldn't be surprised if his agent would reject an offer if it were to a city that he would not want to play for (and last I've checked Seattle is the furthest city geographically from Atlanta). This draft may very well be the last draft that first round draft picks will be property of the team that drafts them for up to five seasons. With the labor negotiations to begin following next season there may be some huge changes to not only the eligibility of incoming NBA players but also the length of their contracts. If the league is somehow able to put an age restriction on incoming players it may come at the expense of access to free agency (giving rookies in opportunity to become free agents earlier). So if the Sonics are looking to take their lumps next season in hopes of adding additional pieces that will put them over the top in seasons' ahead, those pieces will probably not come from the draft (mostly every top prospect has declared this year and many of them would not be eligible even for next year if the age restriction is enforced). The reason why the Sonics are looking to trade up is b/c they weren't too far from the postseason last season. Now considering that only one player played in all 82 games (Flip) and the two starters in the backcourt were both out for an extended period of time (especially bad considering our lack of production in the frontcourt) you would think that even if the Sonics stood pat this offseason they would improve on their 37-45 record. In saying that I don't think that the Supersonics should stand pat. Offering Barry a lucrative four year contract is basically telling Luke Ridnour that you are slated to be a back up (at times third string) for the duration of your contract. Will Barry be worth 6 million dollars when he is 36? Is Luke strong minded enough to excel in that situation? Is Ray Allen worth the maximum extension that he most certainly would want following next season? Are you convinced that Vladimir Radmonovic is so eager to continue his playing career in Seattle that you are willing to risk trading an established 18 and 7 player at the risk of Vlad leaving for greener pastures next season (he is a restricted free agent following this season). Is ridding yourself of a bad contract that (Booth excluded--2006) comes off of the books at the end of 2004-2005 (pick a center) season worth giving up Ronald Murray for? In the last season of a contract at a little over 600K, is Flip's contract worth extending this offseason? Are roll players such as Reggie Evans, Ansu Sesay, and Richie Frahm the best that you can get for their price? Is Nate McMillian, in the final year of his contract, a lame duck coach? Is drafting a center a priority when there are already three highly paid centers on the roster? Are the Sonics aiming to be playoff contenders or are we officially in rebuilding mode? How management decides to answer these questions will undoubtedly affect the personnel decisions made for next year. Since trading away Gary Payton the Sonics haven't been healthy enough to get a fair assessment on how good this roster is. In terms of areas of concern three things are for certain: The Sonics are in desperate need of an interior presence, Rashard Lewis and Vlad Radmonovic is not an ideal small forward/power forward combination, Ray and Flip can not coexist in the backcourt (as a point guard/shooting guard combination). How the Sonics address these issues will impact this franchise for many years to come.
I don't see what would be wrong with holding on to Allen this year, seeing where we stand, and perhaps trading him midseason if things aren't going our way. Teams would be far more interested in him if he was on the last year of his contract anyway, I'd imagine?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see what would be wrong with holding on to Allen this year, seeing where we stand, and perhaps trading him midseason if things aren't going our way. Teams would be far more interested in him if he was on the last year of his contract anyway, I'd imagine?</div> Teams are interested in taking on big contracts (in their last year) from people that they do not plan on signing for the next season (or at least signing them at a fraction of their old contract). Ray may want a max deal and if a team traded for him they could end up like Milwaukee (w/ GP) and just rent his services. That team would have cap room but it is tough to justify trades simply for cap relief. I doubt Ray would want to resign somewhere if that team wasn't a playoff contender (and most playoff contending teams don't have the cap room to take on his salary).
I just think of someone like a Walker.. or even Rasheed.. A similar deal would make Ray attractive to a "borderline" team--whether it be to make the playoffs or advance further. Though my primary complaint is that for all the trade propositions so far, it seems the Sonics really get shortchanged when it involves Ray..
