You didn't address Matthew 25:34-46. Jesus didn't say "only feed widow's over 60" or "give drink to only to the thirsty who work". He clearly says "as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" This is where the Catholic tradition of the 7 Corporal Works of Mercy come from.
Otra vez te dije, es más fácil que un camello pase por el ojo de una aguja, que para alguien que es rico para entrar en el Reino de Dios."
I'm not sure what I think of this scripture now. When I was younger though I remember being very troubled by the verse. If people believed in the bible and believed in god and Jesus wholeheartedly, then why did those people have any possessions? Why do they even take a chance at losing eternal life? Why weren't they devoting their entire life to Jesus and giving away all of their possessions? I came away feeling as though Christians said they believed this stuff, but their actions told me they did not really or they would take this verse to heart. Now, I am just kind of like blah, blah, blah, blah -- like VG said.
Golly, it doesn't really seem all that difficult to me You can get to heaven doing as god requires which also mean not doing a few things. It hasn't got squat to do with what you have. Then there is this to consider, even though you could fail to make it to heavenly grace, just by trying you may do well enough to avoid hell on earth.
So I am obviously not a religious guy but I believe this passage was meant to mean you can't buy your way into heaven. Its ok to have money, its what you do with it and possibly how you obtained it that counts. That's how I read it anyway. In reference to the "rich republican Christians" I think that some people tend to skew the interpretation of the bible to meet their needs and justify what they want to justify.
I tend to agree and would also interpret it the same way, but I think it's interesting because there are so many ways to read it, depending on ones biases. And If you take it literally (I don't) then you would have to believe that wealth makes entering heaven a near-impossibility. But many of the people who do take other parts of the bible literally, choose to view this passage more as an allegory.
You should read the parable of the Talents (or Minas, depending on whether you read the Matthew 25 or Luke 19 version). How does that reconcile with your question about "why take the chance...give up earthly possessions"?
My understanding is that this is a parable about evangelism, no? I suppose you could say with all my worldly possessions I am able to evangelize several other souls, but you can't tell me there isn't some skimming there.
Sure. And I totally understand the temptation to not jump full in. But, I saw a lot of hypocrisy when I struggled with this question, which is about the time where I was turned off by religion. I also totally get that it is really impractical to become a hermit or to a lesser degree live completely on a needs base as opposed to having more than what is necessary to living. I never though did receive a fully satisfactory answer. The answer different elders told me is that you reached heaven through faith. And then I challenged, well okay, but this scripture seems to say you should do more to get to heaven. The answer I received was, well, it's just a lesson. You can only have one god. I understand there is a way to interpret it. I just didn't buy it, and felt like people were making the bible what they wanted it to be, to suit their own goals or ways of life. That's about the time I said, yeah.... umm... this seems like a lot of bullshit.
I think your on to something. The bible is widely open to interpretation and I've always felt that the way people choose to interpret it, and what areas they choose to focus on, say more about the person than anything else.
The evangelical Christian will (should?) confirm that you get to Heaven ("salvation") through faith that Christ is Who He says He is (the Son of God sent to save the world) and did what He says He did through the Gospels (lived a sinless life, was killed, was resurrected and is seated next to the Father in Heaven), while living/understanding/believing that Jesus is the Lord (Boss, able to give you rules to live by) of your life (Romans 10). Period. Not faith in that plus giving money to the poor. Not faith plus not cheating on your wife. Not even faith plus not stealing. The Bible is replete with "sinners" (we all are one--Romans 3:23) who through no way of their own would do anything to take away their sin and make them holy before God (and therefore qualified to live with Him eternally: Heaven). But they believed that Jesus was who He said He was and that He could forgive them of their repented sins, and are with him in Heaven today. Which Scriptures were you looking at to say that you had to "do more"? Usually when I'm talking to someone unfamiliar with the Bible and/or Christianity (not saying that this is anyone in this thread), I take them through something people call the "Romans Road" that lays out the basic tenets of salvation and why Christians believe what they do, and then just let them read it aloud and tell me what they got out of it. I can do it here as an exercise. Romans 3:23--"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If they need a bit more to ensure who "all" is, I point to Romans 3:10-12. Romans 6:23--"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus." Romans 5:8--"But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners" Romans 10:9-10,13--"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved...For 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'" Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us." Romans 8:1 "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus." Romans 8:38-39--"And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Hey, that's good walk down that road. And it leads directly to the problem at least for me. After studying all religions in an attempt to discover "Why men need religion" I find I really do not have any problems with religion except Islam but that is another story for another day. I think I have found several reason why men need religion and that is also another story but Christianity in particular to me and specifically the teaching of Christ seem good for our society which is much better everywhere it holds sway in todays world. I believe in God creating this world but not in the literal sense given in the Old Testament The stories in the old Testament are included as the history of the Hebrew people and their God which is the history of the beginnings of Christianity which is different than the teaching of Jesus given in the New Testament. I do not have a problem with any of the teachings of Jesus, as far has I can see these are good as a whole. It gets a bit beyond what I can accept when it come to the loyalty we are to give to this fellow on his word Even more loyal to him than your family, Then we have the road block to heaven that is Jesus, no matter the good life you lead, the good you do, or how well you keep the commandments, you must accept Jesus as God and your savior. Through him is the only path to heaven. This old fella just ain't got that pure faith, so the best I can do is avoid hell on earth being as good a man as I see fit. That Roman road has just one too many impediments, this one. "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
It was the camel, eye of a needle verse. And I see your point and how you interpret the scriptures. I just personally questioned how much the people I was surrounded by really believed these scriptures if they weren't jumping full in. There were things that I felt were more important to most of the people I interacted with at church than eternal life, despite what they said. And I suppose if you read the bible as you have, would you say that the rich man still gets to heaven because he has faith? Certainly, life would kind of suck if we all just lived in poverty because we all wanted to get into heaven. Maybe you are right that my issue is with sin. Why do Christians sin? Is it because they do not believe? Is it because to them, their self-interest is more important than eternal life? Is it because of Satan? Is it because they get to be forgiven and still get to heaven? Maybe I just never really understood Christianity.
Thank you Brian, MarAzul, Zybot, donkiez and others who have participated in this thread. I find it refreshing to be able to actually have a discussion about a subject such as this without either "side" getting overly pushy or righteous.
I would like to echo this as well. We all want to express our views, but listening to other views is how you learn.
Good discussion Further. I guess I am sort of like the Jews warned but can't quite make it. Well not quite that either, not being a Jew or one of God's chosen people, with which he made a Covenant, will probably be a big deal when the time comes. Maybe when the judgment day comes, I will hang out with the Buddhist to see what gate they enter heaven. I have to think there was an error in translation or perhaps a critical book was omitted from the canon that describes a path for the almost Christian (that would be me), the Jew, the Hindu, the Buddhist. Hard to believe God (or the Father if you prefer) intended to make the club of heaven quite so exclusive, after creating all of us. Wow! This moved a long way from being about wealth, it's much more difficult for some.
I read, I think, that the Pope is working on finding a path for Atheist to enter heaven. Maybe I can exploit that avenue. Kind of doubt it though, being and Atheist really takes much more faith than I can muster.
And now for something completely different... [video=youtube;FE04NYwlZj8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE04NYwlZj8[/video]