How the Heat are doing so far.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head in what I'm getting at in terms of what the Heat need. I'm not sure where they are gonna find it, but a player like that would help them so much.

I would like to see either Wade or LeBron come off the bench, it would be a lot more productive. Plus LBJ can win an award he's never won before...other than a championship. Either one can lead a team, so why not break em up unless it's clutch time or you really need a push.

Bosh is having a 'meh' year, but he has skills and get put up 20-10. Just sometimes the shots he takes are bad and if he got a bit more of a post up game he was be so hard to stop. His footwork is great, just his ego is some-what large.

I can't see that thread No permission. I'm sure though it's a good argument ahah.

Realistically, I expect a huge run after the All-Star break.

 

Thanks. ;]

Yeah Wade off the bench more often wouldn't be bad, ala Ginobili. Or if they keep struggling, maybe a blockbuster trade involving him? I doubt that happens though. What they need to do is continue to be aggressive, as long as they are healthy. Wade isn't right now so he could use some time off, or slowly get him back into game shape.

Me too.

Here's my post from the thread:

 

Huev, i've been meaning to ask this: You think that IF the Heat experiment doesn't work by year 2, they'll trade Wade or Lebron (or Bosh) away and make it a 2-superstar team with great supporting players?

As much as Miami loves Wade, i'm pretty sure they'll choose Lebron over him if need be.

 

HK all I know is whichever team I have, and it came down to 2 minutes in the game, tied game that is (or coming from behind), I'll choose Kobe over Lebron 10 out of 10 to bring my team back and win it. Simple as that, dude's a winner, can shoot from anywhere on the court and attack any defenses you throw at him.


Now if LeBron keeps improving, wins a couple of championships (4 to 6) in his career, then of course he'd be right up there with MJ (and Kobe).

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving!!!!

 

And this is a very possible scenario. I would say it's more likely they don't win this and the next season, so I bet Riley already is drawing a plan to improve this team.

People still think the Heat will eventually start dominating but I just don't see it happening with their roster right now. They will improve, but not enough to beat the Celtcis and the Lakers.

 

Yeah it is a possibility I have to consider. They might even use Bosh as the scapegoat but Wade has had the most trouble fitting in.

The plan for now is to probably wait another month or so, and then do something. Stan wasn't fired until the Heat were 11-10.

Ok.... There's a difference between opinion and what actually occurs at the end of games. Kobe's not closing anything, I can't think of a best player in a sport that was only the best in a small stretch of games. Greatness occurs throughout the entire game, you just want to affiliate mythical qualities to players you like.

 

Why are we even comparing them, he should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Kobe or MJ. Kobe's "Mythical qualities" and "Chokeness" has won him 5 Rings and plenty of Honors. Not to mention "the chosen one" leaving his team to become someone else's sidekick, another trait that Lequitness is nothing similar to MJ or Kobe. You Keep coming up with stats and Mvp trophies but he's never quite led his team and chokes against the top teams in the playoffs season after season. . A player that is self proclaimed "the king". He's basically as good as steve nash with some MVP honors but no glory since he's never proven anything. .



Perhaps Bill rusell can donate one of his rings to Lebron!

 

Kobe and Shaq during the 3-peat:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=IQrOd

Shaq has MVP numbers, Kobe has past his prime Allen Iverson numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=HYrvF

Kobe, below league average efficiency, below All-Star level PER.

Those are Shaq's rings, shut it already.

Not to mention Kobe choked against the Suns, a soft defense, in his prime.

Listen, those are Shaq's rings, stop acting like a little baby about it. Kobe choked in the Finals, he shot 40%. He won because Pau Gasol is All-NBA, Mo Williams is not.

Kobe's stats 25 PPG 40% in the Finals of the 3-peat, Shaq is at 36 ppg/14RPG 58 TS%. Shaq owns Kobe and his chokes.

Oh and Kobe choked against the Pistons, he shot 38%, he had prime shaq and lost the series.

They're mythical because you're immature, and refuse to provide any evidence of how he is clutch.

Provide me the evidence that he is clutch.

Those are Shaq's 3 rings, Kobe has two, that he won by shooting 41.5%, and 29% in the 4th quarter.

And that #1 player is playing horrible, and inferior to LeBron in every category.

Really, tell me what Kobe's stats were in the 3-peat?

Oh that's right, worse than Allen Iverson's.

 

I can see Wade being gone by next year and going after someone like Al Horford + someone else for Wade. I wonder if the Clippers would consider Blake for Wade.

 

Who closed the thread? and why?

lol

 

hk, your arguments, while they stand up on the stat sheet, dont really apply to the reality of the condition of the heats lack of sucess as well as lebrons. what cant be measured accurately is the effect kobe has on his teammates, he makes them better, you need to actually watch a lot of games to see this, not just the stat sheet. while impressive, lebrons play hasnt paid off in the way that players strive for, that is winning a championship. he is probably the most impressive player in the nba, but his tactics and strategy is lacking maturity.

winning basketball games isnt about how good your percentage is, i mean sure if your just comparing players shooting accuracy, but percentage doesnt win games, total amount of points wins games, along with keeping the other teams from scoring. even if your percentage is low, if you have a lot of points, more than the other team then youve won. if a player has a high fg % all it means is that they have the ability to score more, but it doesnt always mean that they do.

kobes teammates have always had the chance to be great and to contribute, lebrons not so much. and dont use lebrons assist averages as an argument becuase that proves nothing. i think kobe is a better teammate, with a better attitude, than lebron. lebron will get there, but he has still got a few important things to add to his game.

ps. sorry if this is messy and spelt wrong, im rushing writing this while at work.

 

Mr. Gunner I'm going to say this now, your trolling is obnoxious and your intent is just to annoy. At least others here are asking intrinsic questions.

Unless you want to have a more advanced conversation, I won't allow you to say Kobe is clutch just because you say so, and then rant against Miami. This is a Heat forum, all you're doing is saying we suck, you're champs, rinse and repeat. When asked for reasoning (as to why Kobe sucks in the Finals for example, and his stats are poor) you just want to spam more with your boasts. I can only conclude you want to spam.

Akira is actually interested in a serious conversation. CK is posting in a manner that is appropriate, questioning me but while actually trying to address my posts, at least somewhat.

 

Kobe is still a top 7 or top 10 player of all time, something like that. That means I have respect for him (though it doesn't seem like it all the time), but I need to be a bit serious with Laker fans to get my point across.


~


Akira it just comes down to this, Kobe really doesn't have the stats to be the next Jordan. Jordan has LeBron stats, with rings.


LeBron is clearly better, but he's not a likable person and hasn't won yet. Laker fans make up all these reasons about eras, intangibles, etc., but in the end that doesn't help Bryant. Either LeBron is the next Jordan or he won't be, but Kobe's not in the GOAT discussion. If this era is tougher to scorer in or whatever, that just helps LeBron/CP3. When Kobe won shooting 40% in the Finals, that sealed my case up about him. He did not play well.

LeBron hasn't had close to the talent his other teammates have, compare Pau Gasol and Shaq to.... ???? Who? Kobe also choked two Finals already, and a 3-1 lead in the post-season. He played badly in the first and third chapionships with shaq.

There's nothing LeBron has done that makes him worse overall. Kobe also had the highest usage rate of all time in 2006, meaning he needs the ball in his hands more than anyone.

Well there's a big problem with your theories. First would be that LeBron is not losing while putting up great stats. He has no chemistry with Wade, and he's playing differently, although still above Kobe level. Kobe's prime ended in 2006, the Kobe that won a title is still not better than this James. Prime Kobe is though.

LeBron and Wade are playing worse than before, Wade at below all-star level. Wade had the highest usage rate last year, therefore he needs the ball the most in his hands. He is just having trouble coping They're both having off-seasons, but LeBron is still better than Kobe.

LeBron averaged 38/8/8 against the Magic and you think he choked? Kobe is the one that choked against the Magic in Game 3, and in the fourth quarters of that series. The difference is Pau Gasol disturbed Dwight Howard's production. And Pau Gasol is better than Mo Williams, who is not an all-star level player.

Well your memory is poor, because I was the Lakers mod for a few years. I saw plenty of games.

"Makes his teammates better", means having Shaq carry Kobe in the 3-peat. Like I proved, Kobe was an inefficient volume scorer. Even if he makes his teammates better, that gives him no excuse to be below league average in efficiency. He just simply didn't play at a Superstar level.


To be Jordan you need both his stats, and rings. Jordan leads the league in advanced stats not out of coincidence.

Kobe lacked more maturity when he gagged a Finals with Shaq 2004, shooting 38%. Then he kicked Phil and Shaq off the team, and he ball hogged terribly that series.

Honestly, I don't care about their personalities off the court, only victories. No matter what happens to LeBron James, even if he fails, Kobe's legacy is still pejoratively set in stone. He has small hands and he'll never be as talented as Chris Paul for example, it isn't just LeBron he needs to worry about.

Nothing personal, just going by reality of the situation. Chris is a much better player through his first six years in the league.

Well don't worry LeBron will win plenty of games. But even so your theories don't make sense to me because Jordan had the ball in his hands at all times, and won zero rings before age 28. Then his teammates got better and he finally won.

Throughout his entire career he was still better than Kobe though, he didn't have to prove that simple fact. In fact he left and his teammates still played at an elite level, if Jordan doesn't make his team better no one else does.

Well there's a problem. That being Pau Gasol was still an All-Star in Memphis, whereas Mo Williams was a below Lamar Odom level player. Shaq is the greatest big of his era, his teammates don't compare.

Shaq once again, 36 PPG/14RPG in the Finals. Kobe was shooting at Allen Iverson Level. He got hurt in the Pacers series, and played poorly in the Sixers series. When he plays well he just doesn't get the credit a Prime Shaq does, because O'Neal is at another level.

Don't worry about the grammar, no big deal.

 

HK, I tried to somehow try to have a civilized talk with you, but all you do is put up stats which are pretty much irrelevant when we talk about success of players like MJ, Kobe and Lebron. If you tried to even walk out of your Lebron closet for just a few minutes and realized he ain't that good as Nike and the media make him up to be. Listen, first of all Lebron cares too much about his stats, he's to much in love with himself to even care about his team, and don't tell me that ain't true when he's been spotted wearing "check my stats" shirt on the streets. Let me tell you why the heat will fail this season and I don't care what Hollinger says, he's probably hiding under his desk of embarrasment right now for predicting so much success for the heat. The problem is simple, its lebron. Lebron wants to do Wade's Job. Lebron is 6'8, c'mon dude seriuosly he's just as big Karl Malone and can play the power foward just as well and he's opting to be a big pussy and take perimiter shots and thinks he's reggie miller or ray allen from the 3 point line, dude's not that good from the perimiter, we saw that in the last game against the mavs, he's very talented in the paint because of his size and build but his stubborness to change his game is costing miami, instead of switching to a different role which would suit him more naturally due to his size. Wade would have more options if lebron would stop trying to do his job, but lebron would not do that since he doesn't want to be considered a sidekick, but then again, why did he leave cleveland in the first place, everyone knew this was Wade's team and now he's finding out rough way. This is the reason why I don't think Lebron is on the same boat as Jordan and Kobe, he hasn't matured he's more focused on himself than to help his team, he did it in cleveland and he's doing it in Miami again, stats mean everything to him but stats don't win championships, it takes much more than that.

 

It doesn't matter how annoying LeBron is as a person, Michael was more annoying to me (punching people) but on the court production overcomes everything else. If he's better on the court, that's all I care about. And he is, for all the reasons I've stated to Akira.

If you want to get real about it, I don't know if Kobe is innocent or not in his Colorado case. Read his confession after the money settlement and tell me it doesn't sound awkward? I would never even insinuate that an accuser like that might have been right to feel attacked, if I was innocent. I judge Kobe by his on-court impact.

So keep the off the court stuff to yourself, Kobe is disrespectful on the court and leads the league in technical fouls in the past four years (for the superstar tier). He embarrassed Phil Jackson and forced Shaq to leave. And he should have passed way more in the Detroit Finals, he's got Prime Shaq on his team. In contrast LeBron has to do everything himself, if he passes the ball to Mo Williams everyone is screwed.

He probably is a little embarrassed, but at the end of the day basketball-reference, etc., predict the post-season pretty well. And until they tell me to panic, I won't. They were very accurate last season for example, and pretty much every year.

The problem is the entire team, they're all playing below their previous levels. Everyone gets blame, but if you want to share extra blame it goes to Wade for being horrific this season. He hasn't been out of the first round in years, and statistically he needs the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league. Usg% of 36 last season.

Yes LeBron could add more post-moves to his arsenal, but he's a 30/8/7 player who shot over 50% last season. If he added post moves to his aresenal he'd be God, instead he's just the best player in the league. I'll take that though.

Or was the best until this Miami mess this year. They have no movement on offense, and Wade is very inconsistent this season. Wade's shots are not assisted either, he just gets to the paint and bricks shots now. I still think this team will improve though, Wade is recovering from injury and Chris Bosh has gotten a bit hotter offensively recently.

What I don't like from Spo is that everyone is static on offense, in the triangle there is a lot more movement. He's lost, and I want to see Chalmers get another shot. He's got more potential than Arroyo.

Also bench Howard who really sucks at everything, and play bigger lineups if necessary. Wade can defend point guards, James Jones also fits well with the big 3.

 

If that was true he'd back KG and Celtics.

 

HK, what your doing is ignoring the effect a players actions off the court affect their play on the court.

Lets take a look back at kobe's court case in colorado. That really fucked with the team chemistry. Kobe's attitude was bad and it drove him and shaq apart, thus breaking up one of the best teams in nba history. but it takes two to tango. shaq has always always had a me first attitude, he's so full of himself he cant see the damge that he could possibly cause. he's become a little more humble with age thank god, but it was a combination of two bad attitudes that ended the shaq and kobe era. and trust me, it was the shaq AND kobe era, without each other they wouldnt have won the way that they did, nor as much as they did.

LeBrons actions off the court are similar to good old shaq. totally full of himself, a total show off who displays little honour or humility. this is starting to effect the way his new team is "gelling" and its begining to become clear that lebron lacks what it takes to be a winner and contribute to a teams success. Michael Jordan shouldnt be in this conversation, i never mentioned him or the argument of the G.O.A.T. Im addressing your dogged and blind support of a superstar player who has yet to prove his ability to take home the one prize that really counts.

Kobe has made it to that level 5 times, 3 in the shaq and kobe era, twice now with gasol as his right hand man. Like i tried to explain to you earlier, it doesnt matter too much how well kobe performs in advanced statistics, he's winning rings as the leader of a team, everyone knows he is the leader and that speaks a whole lot louder than his per or how well he shot in the 4th quater of some game. Yes he could have performed better in some games, but he didnt need to, he led the rest of his squad to make up for his losses, making guys like gasol (a player who could wina playoff game before he joined kobe) able to effect the game more than they ever could before.

stats are an accurate way to show a players performance level, but at the end of the day a win is a win, no matter how well, or bad, you performed.

LeBron CANNOT be above kobe in leadership, kobe has shown his ability to lead a team to the championship win, lebron has not, and until he does, whatever arguments you make are irrelevent.

 

Well there's a stat for that too, called "Adjusted plus minus". It doesn't take ANY boxscore stats into account, only the positive effect a player has on his team when he's on the court (adjusted for teammates, and strength of opponents).

Basically if you do the little things right that don't show up in the boxscore, you should be close to the top, maybe top 3 or whatever. Nah Kobe doesn't rank highly in that either.

Reality is advanced stats cover everything, clutch stats, the real reason why the Lakers win (not Kobe's clutchness, but their team defense and Pau vs Mo Williams), even intangibles.

Adjusted plus-minus simply measures how much you make your team better when you step on the court, things like having a defense focus on you more, and being a versatile scorer from many positions on the court. Kobe still doesn't beat James, or other players like Chris Paul and such.

I agree Shaq is obnoxious. Much more so than LeBron or any other Superstar aside from KG.

But I must disagree with you there about the 3-peat, while he was definitely to blame as well for leaving, he was by far still the better player. Kobe didn't enter his prime until the post-shaq seasons.

Yet on the court, he's the one getting a lot less technical fouls than Kobe. And he's never thrown Phil Jackson off a team. I mean it goes both ways dude.

Disagree, LeBron is one of the most durable players in the history of the league. His teammates love him.

Shaq, who was still a lot better than Kobe in the 3-peat and the year Kobe bricked everything against Detroit, took a bunch of games off and never cared about his conditioning. Even in his prime he was fat and missed a bunch of games.

He threatened to stop playing defense if he doesn't get the ball, in comparison LeBron just threatens to leave a losing franchise and takes less money to go be on a contender. That's just savvy.

Well actually it does matter because Shaq played better in the Finals during that stretch than even Jordan possibly.

Quite an important detail you're leaving out.

It just means he's a leader, and a great player. The fact that the Lakers don't need him to be at his best shows what a great team they have.

Well you can say it as much as you want, at the end of the day you have zero evidence.

In comparison the GOAT, MJ, leads a variety of advanced statistics with the same coach in the same system. And never played with Shaq, and never lost in the Finals during an MVP season. I mean I understand if Kobe sucked in the Finals when he was young, but in his prime? He's just not at that level. He's at a Magic Johnson level

At the end of the day, I've proven Shaq is a leader and closer to Jordan than Kobe ever was these past two years. Kobe got bounced in the first round in his best seasons. Kobe's durability over his career helps him get closer to Shaq though, but in the 3-peat that is another matter.

Well your claims are irrelevant unless you have hardcore evidence to support it. Think of the scientific method, your hypothesis means nothing to the world. Anyway I even gave you a stat for leadership, and clutch situations. There's simply nothing i haven't covered already.

 

nobody has ever liked turtles as much as I do right now.