Business 101. You need to take it. Profit = Income - Expenses Expenses are the employee salaries and everything else, so: Profit = Income - (Salaries + Everything else) Which translates to: Profit = Income - Salaries - Everything else Profit + Salaries = Income - Everything else So figure out why if Salaries is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Salaries is $100, the workers have taken 50% of the take. And that IS how the unions figure what their take should be. The profits are in fact socialized. If one worker paints 10 widgets and hour and another paints 5 widgets an hour, the first guy is worth 2x the pay of the other, but he's getting the same. In fact, it's an incentive for the really good widget painter to slack off and only paint 5 an hour.
Ooh, equations. Can I play? Profit = Income - Expenses Expenses are the raw materials costs and everything else, so: Profit = Income - (Raw Materials + Everything else) Which translates to: Profit = Income - Raw Materials - Everything else Profit + Raw Materials = Income - Everything else So figure out why if Raw Materials is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Raw Materials is $100, the suppliers have taken 50% of the take. And then ask yourself if that is socialism. The ability of the company to pay, when well understood, should of course be a factor in wage negotiations. I certainly use that information, and I'm not in a union. Why shouldn't the union use whatever knowledge they have? And that sort of thing happens plenty in non-union shops too. So I guess they are also socialized? barfo
Yes, it's part of the plan to minimize the other expenses. Like they replace workers with robots, close a factor if the rest can handle the load, or buy Japanese steel instead of the american union made overpriced kind. And that is something the unions should consider - if they're pricing products they make out of reach of the intended consumer. I'm sure you've read plenty of corporate financials to know that almost all of the P&L statements have salaries as the highest expense, and by a longshot. How easy is it to fire a less productive union employee? Non union workers, especially in At Will states like California, can be fired with ease. Non union workplaces don't have to pay the least productive employees as much as anyone else; they have the freedom to pay the guy who paints 10 widgets an hour a higher rate.
Disagree. That's not for the unions to consider. Unions don't price products. Companies price products. Unions price labor. And I'm sure you haven't read plenty of corporate financials if you believe that. It depends very much on the industry. Not very easy, but contrary to rumor it can be done. Actually California has the least employer-friendly employment laws in the country. Ok, there's something, at last, that we can agree about. They do have the ability to do that if they so choose. barfo
Nonsense. When I buy widgets I skip right over the sloppily painted ones that the methhead cranked out (pun intended) and select one of the meticulously decorated and trimmed ones the serious artisan spent ample time on to get it right. Quality is what you get from unions. Quantity is what you get from China.
Take a look at the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement. What is BRI? Get back to me. That deserves a big LOL. So you agree the profits are socialized by unions. That's a start.
You assume the widgets are painted with differing quality. I'll give you a different example, perhaps a bit closer to home. How about the oyster shuckers at Oregon Oyster Farms Inc. One shucks 10 oysters a minute and another 5 oysters a minute. Now tell me you sift through shucked oysters and can tell the difference in who shucked which ones.
Yes, the NBPA is an excellent example of the typical union. Good point! Good comeback! I agree to nothing of the sort. Seems like you are out of arguments? barfo
Unions meant something when there was no global economy. Now that there is a global economy, and big companies can just ship their manufacturing to some overseas plant where the workers are treated like slave labor in order to circumvent unions, unions really don't have much power.
The NBPA is an excellent example of a union. Or are you suggesting they're not a union, like you recently suggested they could make automobiles without steel?
It's a highly atypical example of a union, for obvious reasons. And WTF about making autos without steel? Of course that is possible (aluminum and fiberglass) but I don't remember saying anything like that. Remind me? barfo
True, and because we encourage them to do so by buying their products America no longer stands for Freedom and Justice.
http://sportstwo.com/threads/167767-I-Love-Unions!?p=2428141&viewfull=1#post2428141 If "Everything else" is 0, then they're not paying for steel or aluminum or fiberglass, are they? The NBPA is a typical union. Read this: http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy
I'm talking about two union workers who shuck oysters at different rates for the same pay. That's socializing the profits, and the guy who shucks 10/minute is doing the work of two other union workers (at the same pay) who shuck 5/minute each.
Wow. I think maybe you should adjust your medication. Do you realize you are making fun of your own argument? Ok, I get it. You are pulling my leg. Very good. Your "crazy Denny" impression is really good. You had me going there for a bit, but you went too far with this one. I'm not taking your recommendations. You are either insane or a prankster or an insane prankster. barfo
When the law is on your side, argue the law. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, make an ad hominem attack.
I have worked at both union and non union jobs. I have actually worked at both a union and non union proffession as well (HVAC when I was in college). Unions, for the most part, are great for union employees. You get outstanding benefits, ridiculous job security, a nice retirement, and the ability to be the worst employee in a company, and still get the best job based on seniority. I am all for people earning as much as they can, but should unskilled laborers in warehouses, without HS degrees, and sometimes criminal records be paid $25-$27 an hour with $3-$4 an hour additionally going into a pention fund for them? I don't think so. Should a shitty teacher be able to keep their job simply because they have tenure? I don't think so.
The thing is, that situation pretty much never exists when people are properly compensated for their labor. In the rare instances that it arises people get replaced, even in unions. Your problem is you believe the hype about unions that the right-wing throws around as if it is true, which it is not.
