1. I think it would solve the salary problem allowing us to re-sign DJJ, then do whatever we want with our RFAs and get more talent with the MLE after that. 2. You've been stating this like it's a fact for a while but it's just your opinion. I think when CJ is out of the game this season might change your perspective but I guess we'll see.
I understand the objection to per36 stats. I think they can be misused sometimes too; mostly when there's a big gap in average minutes. For example, using per36 to compare a player averaging 32 minutes to one averaging 17. and especially using them to compare high minutes starters to low minutes backups but for Zach and Giles, you're talking about two players who have mostly come off the bench and have averaged 17.5 and 14.5 minutes. It's a lot more apples to apples
Shedding CJ means bringing in new talent in trade and starting Trent. I'm not sure if I think that's a huge loss for the team.
I know that the trade CJ train is going to be rumbling along the tracks all season, but I'd say that the probability of that happening before the trade deadline is about as close to zero as it's possible to get. Near the deadline, it's going to depend on how the team is playing and what CJ's numbers are. Given how tight he is with Dame, it's going to have to be a trade that clearly makes the team better and not just a salary dump.
I think I agree but we'll just have to see how everyone plays this season. Then some time after the season and before free agency starts you decide who needs to stay. If Gary and DJJ do what I think they will, they will be in the "needs to stay" category maybe even more so than CJ. It will also depend on what CJ could draw in return.
You had me until the Dame stuff. I think that shit is so overblown. Dame just wants to win and he doesn't like it when he loses any teammate but he has said time and time again that he knows this is a business and he just wants to stay in Portland as long as the team wants him. He's also addressed this almost directly saying it's much deeper than any teammate but that it's about this city and team. He likes to compare himself with Dirk and Dirk lost Nash and that was a team decision. I think Dame will be just like everyone else, if it makes sense based on what happens this season, he won't love it but will be all in to win with the team he has going forward.
Well, I guess we're all entitled to our opinions. I know that Dame has had multiple teammate friends who have been traded away and he's ultimately come to accept those moves based on the "it's a business" thought. None of them have been the same level of player that CJ is. I think that if it's just a salary dump, Dame would be PISSED, and rightly so. If it happens, it had better be a deal that clearly makes the team better or I'm going to by PISSED.
I agree with that, if it's "just a salary dump" but if Gary and DJJ prove to Dame and the world that they are more important to this team winning than CJ is by the time a trade went down to free up cap space to keep those guys then I just have to think Dame would be a little sad to lose CJ but not PISSED. Dame is smarter than he is blindly loyal to one teammate staying a teammate because "letting" CJ go wouldn't mean that he was not loyal to CJ as a teammate and friend, just that Dame was willing to put the team first as he has done many other times. All of this is a little premature though. The only time this debate should be had is after we see what we have with the different lineups playing together for a while. Maybe Gary is a lot less than what some think he is. Maybe DJJ doesn't take the jump it looks like he's ready to take. If those two things are true then obviously trading CJ for anything less than equal value would be crazy and all of us should be PISSED if that was done. Neil would never do that and may not even do it if it makes sense, Dame probably isn't the guy anyone needs to worry about holding up this move if it's a good one.
Trent can’t really create offense for himself like a cj does. Cj is made for the playoffs when the game slows down and it’s time to manufacture buckets. Trent is great but he’s nowhere near as good as cj
Yeah, it's really early to be making any of these assessments. We don't know what Gary is going to look like this season, while we have a pretty sure thing in what we know CJ will be. Maybe Gary isn't even as good as he was in the bubble but maybe he's improved just as much as he did between last season and the season before and this time he's added getting his own to his arsenal but is also a willing passer who takes open shots. We'll just have to wait and see.
As is usual on this board, we're probably both in overall agreement, but finding nits to pick with each other. There are some folks around here who seem to be of the "improvement by subtraction" mindset when it comes to CJ. I find that position to be silly. Improvement by actually getting equal or greater value in trade? Sure, if the right deal comes along I'm okay with that and I suspect Dame would be too.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dame. He's my favorite Blazer of all time. But this isn't his own personal super friends club. I would trade Dame if it meant winning a championship. I want to see this damn team win a title in my lifetime. If we don't trade CJ because it would upset Dame, but it would make the team better, then Dame needs to go too. I don't enjoy treadmill teams. It's a complete waste of time. The Raptors dealt a fan favorite in DeRozan and they won a title. Sometimes you have to roll the dice. I get that you were saying "salary dump" but I think there are different forms of salary dumps. If we could trade CJ for some young talent on rookie contracts, I would do it as long as the talent was worth it. Think something like Rod Strickland for Rasheed Wallace.
I don’t think Zach is a bust, maybe relative to where he was drafted. But his defense alone will allow him to stick in the league a long time. If he just continues to improve his set shooting he could carve out an Ibaka type (the raptors version) role, which is pretty valuable.
That's pretty much the definition of a bust though. He should have been a late first rounder. Not the 10th pick in the draft. He's a clear bust based on where he was picked.
And, again, we're pretty much in agreement. I never meant to say that Dame gets veto power, but if it was seen as just a salary dump, he'd be right to be pissed at seeing a talented backcourt mate getting dumped to save the team money during Dame's prime. I don't think that there's any chance Olshey would even contemplate doing such a thing, but I've had the impression that some folks around here might be in favor of it. Anywho...I think that there's no chance of something involving trading CJ being contemplated until at least near the deadline and only then for pieces that would make the team better. As far as winning a title in your lifetime, I'm a lot more of a short-timer than you are and I really want to see another title in MY lifetime. I never imagined that when I went to the championship parade in 1977 it might be a one-shot deal.
Another note about Giles v Collins that I think goes a little under the radar when evaluating players, especially bigs: hands. Giles has them. Collins meanwhile has struggled throughout his career so far imo. He drops a lot of balls, and a lot of them slip through. I don’t know what the measurements are on either guy but I’m pretty confident that Giles has bigger mitts, and it shows. It’s a pretty important trait for a big; rebounding, finishing in traffic, etc etc.
Sometimes it takes a little more of a nuanced approach than just "improvement by subtraction". This time it might come down to being forced to subtract and then therefore what subtractions make the team the best. So getting equal value for CJ in certain situations becomes less important because Neil may have to get the best value possible while shedding enough salary to keep the players he sees as giving us the best chance at a championship. Of course, like I said, this is all very premature. If anyone is saying we should trade CJ who is a known commodity for less than he's worth right now based on some expectation of players who are unknown commodities needing the cap space in the off season then those people are crazy. This is all conjecture right now. In a few months or after the season, players' individual values might be a complex mix of individual talents/skills, fit with others on the roster and what salaries it takes to keep whatever combination of these things the team wants to move forward with.
We just have different definitions of bust. Maybe he isn’t as good as some of the players taken after him, but to me, anyone that makes a team better can’t be labeled a bust. A bust is someone sitting on a bench that doesn’t play, or someone completely out of the league. I don’t even consider a player whose career got cut short because of things out of their control (injury) a bust either, cough Oden.
The fun but also the pointless thing about all of these conversations being had right now is that we and more importantly Neil has at the very least until the trade deadline and more likely until the season is over to make all of these assessments that are big time question marks right now. When it's all said and done will Giles be better with all things considered than Collins? Will guys like Gary and DJJ prove to be worth a ton more than they are known to be right now? If they do prove that will it be enough to make some tough trades so we can retain them and what will those trades and signings be? These questions are fun and nice problems to have but they don't need to be answered or addressed for quite some time or before we have a ton more to base them on.
That is the crux of the issue. Everyone seems to value what CJ brings differently.... So no one can agree what 'equal or greater' value actually is. It appears that NO sees CJ as a franchise cornerstone. I personally think that view is severely over-valuing CJ. He is a mid-tier starter in the NBA (~75th best player - out of 150-starter positions).
