<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheBeef @ Jun 14 2008, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jun 14 2008, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's not a baby, it's a mass of organic tissue that has yet to develop into a human. By that note, "muder" is a bit much. "A right to murder" is just sensationalism.</div> i might have bought that if I had never been in a room with a sonogram tech and heard my 1st daughters heart beating....she was my daughter from that moment forward no matter what else happened....I also think if they made a woman get the sonogram before the abortion, the rate of abortion would drop to almost nothing, because they do think of it as if its not alive.... </div> Fair enough, and I definitely respect that, but now you're introducing subjective emotional connotative reactions into the equation, that can't fly in legislature on this issue.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jun 14 2008, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 14 2008, 08:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^^^ One of the lamest arguments for abortion rights I've ever heard. (GMJigga's mass of cells argument) Work your way backward. 1 second before a baby is born, is it a baby? Obviously. A week before? Certainly. Keep going and you realize it's always a baby from conception.</div> How can it be a baby when even current medical advances can't sustain its life outside the womb? </div> Human beings can take a lot of forms. Disfigured from birth or after. In coma (sustainable only by machines). Human beings start out looking like this: and change throughout their life, to something like this: and ultimately look something like this: The same person changes pretty radically from conception to the end of days (oldest of old age). To pick some point along that path is arbitrary. The difference between a human embryo and one of a fish is the DNA.
I think I lean pro-choice, but I've had a hard time reaching a definitive stance. Honestly, everything about this debate seems so subjective: from the definitions, to the justifications, to the arguments.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheBeef @ Jun 14 2008, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#1_Yinka_Dare_Fan @ Jun 14 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It would depend on the status of my mother. If she was some hick who's life had been ruined because she had no support from the father, and lost her childhood, and I could go back in time, I'd consider. Killing the child when she's grown and interacted with her is completely different than killing a fetus. It would hurt her emotionally more than it would help.</div> i respect the opinion, and I see where you are coming from, I just dont agree with it....I never see a reason a baby should destroyed, regardless of how hard it may be to raise it.... </div> maybe because forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term and give birth against her will is, definitionally, slavery.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Jun 14 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>maybe because forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term and give birth against her will is, definitionally, slavery.</div> Different angle on 'slavery': maybe because forcing a woman to not stab her children against her will is, "definitionally", slavery.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jun 14 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Jun 14 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>maybe because forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term and give birth against her will is, definitionally, slavery.</div> Different angle on 'slavery': maybe because forcing a woman to not stab her children against her will is, "definitionally", slavery. </div> You're pro-life? Wouldn't you use that argument that it might help save lives to prevent "evil" ones from growing up, like in that Black Button thread (The, "it is better for society in general" angle you were using there)? To me it is easy, there are definitely situations when Abortion is appropriate. Grown women (not kids who just got out of high school, more like People in their Mid-20's) using it like birth control is not correct though. It should only be done within a certain window of time as well, barring special circumstances. My problem with the Black Button thread, is that there already are so many children that could be killed by cowards pressing that thing, that I have a hard time buying into that. However with abortion, I think like GM and do not worry as much over a fetus, so it is not as much of an issue for me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#1_Yinka_Dare_Fan @ Jun 14 2008, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If the baby came about through rape, or teen sex, the women should have the choice to abort within three months of conception.</div> You win the prize for best answer!
i wish everyone would just send me all the babies they didn't want instead of aborting them. i'd never go hungry again.
I just don't see the argument for abortion... Why not have a pro choice society...that is fine and all. The woman's choice is whether to have sex or not. If she decides to have sex, than she should have to accept any consequences that come with it, simple as that. Abortion is symbolic of a big problem in our society, no one wants to take responsibility anymore. This method of pro-choice would make one exception, rape. I would like for the woman to quickly take an ECP...but it is understandable how some would want abortion legal for rape victims. I like the idea of an all out ban though, and ECP as the only option (for everyone), because you would have a bunch of women claiming they were raped just to get an abortion. I am not sure how the Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers are interpreted. Are they taken as documents that are used to argue law...or are they just there to indicate the "spirit". Looking at the DI, not only does abortion deny the baby's unalienable right to iife, but also their right to the pursuit of happiness. Using this, another instance comes up where abortion may be tolerable. When the mother's life would be in significant risk if birth was to be performed, as the baby would be infringing on the mother's unalienable right to life. If the mother is not at significant risk, then she should not be able to infringe on the baby's unalienable rights. Abortion is murder, simple as that. People need to get that in their mind, abortion is murder. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I don't feel bad for little miss 14 year old whore who slept with 20 guys and ended up getting pregnant, or for Jake, the quarterback of the football team who got his girlfriend pregnant because the condom broke, or the pornstar who got pregnant because her birth control pills failed, or the woman with high career aspirations which would be derailed from having a baby. These people know their choice....DON"T HAVE SEX. Simple as that. I've never heard of spontaneously getting pregnant....if you want to have sex, accept the consequences.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Jun 15 2008, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>i wish everyone would just send me all the babies they didn't want instead of aborting them. i'd never go hungry again.</div> Do you prefer a chocolate or a peanut butter marinade? I prefer Kobe beef (har har har)
Also, I don't get the viable form of life thing. Certain mentally handicapped and elderly people cannot live on their own, and depend on others to live. I think it is a horrendous sentiment that we should abort all the non viable people in our society....and I don't think we should be discriminating against certain groups and allowing the abortion of them. What happened to equal rights?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 15 2008, 02:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, I don't get the viable form of life thing. Certain mentally handicapped and elderly people cannot live on their own, and depend on others to live. I think it is a horrendous sentiment that we should abort all the non viable people in our society....and I don't think we should be discriminating against certain groups and allowing the abortion of them. What happened to equal rights?</div> So you were just joking in the Black Button thread?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 15 2008, 03:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I just don't see the argument for abortion... Why not have a pro choice society...that is fine and all. The woman's choice is whether to have sex or not. If she decides to have sex, than she should have to accept any consequences that come with it, simple as that. Abortion is symbolic of a big problem in our society, no one wants to take responsibility anymore. This method of pro-choice would make one exception, rape. I would like for the woman to quickly take an ECP...but it is understandable how some would want abortion legal for rape victims. I like the idea of an all out ban though, and ECP as the only option (for everyone), because you would have a bunch of women claiming they were raped just to get an abortion. I am not sure how the Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers are interpreted. Are they taken as documents that are used to argue law...or are they just there to indicate the "spirit". Looking at the DI, not only does abortion deny the baby's unalienable right to iife, but also their right to the pursuit of happiness. Using this, another instance comes up where abortion may be tolerable. When the mother's life would be in significant risk if birth was to be performed, as the baby would be infringing on the mother's unalienable right to life. If the mother is not at significant risk, then she should not be able to infringe on the baby's unalienable rights. Abortion is murder, simple as that. People need to get that in their mind, abortion is murder. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I don't feel bad for little miss 14 year old whore who slept with 20 guys and ended up getting pregnant, or for Jake, the quarterback of the football team who got his girlfriend pregnant because the condom broke, or the pornstar who got pregnant because her birth control pills failed, or the woman with high career aspirations which would be derailed from having a baby. These people know their choice....DON"T HAVE SEX. Simple as that. I've never heard of spontaneously getting pregnant....if you want to have sex, accept the consequences.</div> Is it fair to say that most teen pregnancies happen in "bad" areas? Do you really think a teenager, let alone one growing up in that environment can take proper care for the child. Don't you think it'd be hell for the child? You don't think he'd get taunted in school for having a young mother? Don't you think the mother would hate the child at times? I can't envision anyone in my school would be able to take full care of a another life right now. Rape and teen pregnancy should be the only exceptions to an abortion law.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 15 2008, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, I don't get the viable form of life thing. Certain mentally handicapped and elderly people cannot live on their own, and depend on others to live. I think it is a horrendous sentiment that we should abort all the non viable people in our society....and I don't think we should be discriminating against certain groups and allowing the abortion of them. What happened to equal rights?</div> There hasn't been a single post in this thread talking about anything close to this other than your post.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 15 2008, 03:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I just don't see the argument for abortion... Why not have a pro choice society...that is fine and all. The woman's choice is whether to have sex or not. If she decides to have sex, than she should have to accept any consequences that come with it, simple as that. Abortion is symbolic of a big problem in our society, no one wants to take responsibility anymore. This method of pro-choice would make one exception, rape. I would like for the woman to quickly take an ECP...but it is understandable how some would want abortion legal for rape victims. I like the idea of an all out ban though, and ECP as the only option (for everyone), because you would have a bunch of women claiming they were raped just to get an abortion. I am not sure how the Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers are interpreted. Are they taken as documents that are used to argue law...or are they just there to indicate the "spirit". Looking at the DI, not only does abortion deny the baby's unalienable right to iife, but also their right to the pursuit of happiness. Using this, another instance comes up where abortion may be tolerable. When the mother's life would be in significant risk if birth was to be performed, as the baby would be infringing on the mother's unalienable right to life. If the mother is not at significant risk, then she should not be able to infringe on the baby's unalienable rights. Abortion is murder, simple as that. People need to get that in their mind, abortion is murder. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I don't feel bad for little miss 14 year old whore who slept with 20 guys and ended up getting pregnant, or for Jake, the quarterback of the football team who got his girlfriend pregnant because the condom broke, or the pornstar who got pregnant because her birth control pills failed, or the woman with high career aspirations which would be derailed from having a baby. These people know their choice....DON"T HAVE SEX. Simple as that. I've never heard of spontaneously getting pregnant....if you want to have sex, accept the consequences.</div> It was absolutely hilarious to see this post with a pro-Obama graphic underneath it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 14 2008, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jun 14 2008, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 14 2008, 08:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>^^^ One of the lamest arguments for abortion rights I've ever heard. (GMJigga's mass of cells argument) Work your way backward. 1 second before a baby is born, is it a baby? Obviously. A week before? Certainly. Keep going and you realize it's always a baby from conception.</div> How can it be a baby when even current medical advances can't sustain its life outside the womb? </div> Human beings can take a lot of forms. Disfigured from birth or after. In coma (sustainable only by machines). Human beings start out looking like this: </div> Yes, that start has the potential to become a human, but it isn't a human yet.
I'm pro-choice. And, I had to aruge for Abortion in my Anthro/Soci class. I don't know about the US, but In Canada, abortions are completely free. And about 90% of them are done within the first 3 months (first term). 2% are done in the second term and none in the 3rd term, unless there is a medical problem. If you're raped, then yes, you don't want a rape baby with you. The damages mentally and physically are just huge. Also, to NOT allow women to have an abortion, is like taking away their rights. Women have the right to choose what they do with THEIR body. A fetus or embryo isn't a baby. It's an organism dependent on its' carrier. So, not being an independent organism, the women has the right to do anything wrong with her body. On a harsher level, to get an abortion of a fetus or embro, it could be like getting a tatoo removed. Now, this may sound very arrogent and you'll probably try and pick this whole post apart, but to not allow abortion, takes us back to when women couldn't choose what they were allowed to do with their bodies. Why not just have a safe way of abortions, instead of ones done in a back alley some where or by someone without any proffesional experience.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne @ Jun 15 2008, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I just don't see the argument for abortion... Why not have a pro choice society...that is fine and all. The woman's choice is whether to have sex or not. If she decides to have sex, than she should have to accept any consequences that come with it, simple as that. Abortion is symbolic of a big problem in our society, no one wants to take responsibility anymore. This method of pro-choice would make one exception, rape. I would like for the woman to quickly take an ECP...but it is understandable how some would want abortion legal for rape victims. I like the idea of an all out ban though, and ECP as the only option (for everyone), because you would have a bunch of women claiming they were raped just to get an abortion. I am not sure how the Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers are interpreted. Are they taken as documents that are used to argue law...or are they just there to indicate the "spirit". Looking at the DI, not only does abortion deny the baby's unalienable right to iife, but also their right to the pursuit of happiness. Using this, another instance comes up where abortion may be tolerable. When the mother's life would be in significant risk if birth was to be performed, as the baby would be infringing on the mother's unalienable right to life. If the mother is not at significant risk, then she should not be able to infringe on the baby's unalienable rights. Abortion is murder, simple as that. People need to get that in their mind, abortion is murder. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I don't feel bad for little miss 14 year old whore who slept with 20 guys and ended up getting pregnant, or for Jake, the quarterback of the football team who got his girlfriend pregnant because the condom broke, or the pornstar who got pregnant because her birth control pills failed, or the woman with high career aspirations which would be derailed from having a baby. These people know their choice....DON"T HAVE SEX. Simple as that. I've never heard of spontaneously getting pregnant....if you want to have sex, accept the consequences.</div> Neither one of those are legally binding documents so it doesn't really matter too much what they say if you're making a legal argument. And to go back to the topic, I have yet to see an argument for making abortion illegal that wasn't religiously or emotionally based.
No one is going to convince anyone to change their minds in this thread, we all believe what we believe....having said that, I believe abortion is murder, i dont believe a woman has a legal right to an abortion, and I believe the Supreme Courts ruling in Roe v Wade is about the stupidest ruling imaginable....If anyone is familar with the ruling itself and wants to debate its legality, I guess we could do that, but debating abortion itself is getting us no where....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 15 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Jun 14 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Jun 14 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>maybe because forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term and give birth against her will is, definitionally, slavery.</div> Different angle on 'slavery': maybe because forcing a woman to not stab her children against her will is, "definitionally", slavery. </div> You're pro-life? Wouldn't you use that argument that it might help save lives to prevent "evil" ones from growing up, like in that Black Button thread (The, "it is better for society in general" angle you were using there)? To me it is easy, there are definitely situations when Abortion is appropriate. Grown women (not kids who just got out of high school, more like People in their Mid-20's) using it like birth control is not correct though. It should only be done within a certain window of time as well, barring special circumstances. My problem with the Black Button thread, is that there already are so many children that could be killed by cowards pressing that thing, that I have a hard time buying into that. However with abortion, I think like GM and do not worry as much over a fetus, so it is not as much of an issue for me. </div> The black button thread is different, it is the life of many vs. the life of one. If the mother felt she was not healthy enough for childbearing and would probably die, and there was not enough food for the baby, then sure. But in our society there are plenty of good couples that cannot have kids and want to adopt. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Shake @ Jun 15 2008, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm pro-choice. And, I had to aruge for Abortion in my Anthro/Soci class. I don't know about the US, but In Canada, abortions are completely free. And about 90% of them are done within the first 3 months (first term). 2% are done in the second term and none in the 3rd term, unless there is a medical problem. If you're raped, then yes, you don't want a rape baby with you. The damages mentally and physically are just huge. Also, to NOT allow women to have an abortion, is like taking away their rights. Women have the right to choose what they do with THEIR body. A fetus or embryo isn't a baby. It's an organism dependent on its' carrier. So, not being an independent organism, the women has the right to do anything wrong with her body. On a harsher level, to get an abortion of a fetus or embro, it could be like getting a tatoo removed. Now, this may sound very arrogent and you'll probably try and pick this whole post apart, but to not allow abortion, takes us back to when women couldn't choose what they were allowed to do with their bodies. Why not just have a safe way of abortions, instead of ones done in a back alley some where or by someone without any proffesional experience.</div> So if about 90% are done in the first term, and about 2% are done in the 2nd term. Wouldn' that leave about 8% in the 3rd term? (I guess about 90% means about 98%?) Well the baby is an organism dependent on its carrier. Being dependent on the same things the fetus needs, it needs food, oxygen, warmth, protection.
