<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">First, this is a very dubious survey that people from Left to Right think is inaccurate. But even if one is to accept the death toll at face value, about 450,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by other Iraqis, it's not all due to us. We've mishandled this war but if we left now, things would get even worse.</div> i was waiting for somebody to bring this up. saddam greatest asset as a junta dictator was his ability to prevent sectarian violence as witnessed by his brutal suppression of it after the first gulf war (i.e. gassing the kurds and scaring the shite into anonymity). however, operation enduring freedom ignited liberty which in the middle east means sectarian violence. if u take into account sanctions which cost another 1.5 million lives, the american are responsible for the killing of 2+ million iraqis. funny math? yeah kinda like george bush math.
<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i was waiting for somebody to bring this up. saddam greatest asset as a junta dictator was his ability to prevent sectarian violence as witnessed by his brutal suppression of it after the first gulf war (i.e. gassing the kurds and scaring the shite into anonymity). however, operation enduring freedom ignited liberty which in the middle east means sectarian violence. if u take into account sanctions which cost another 1.5 million lives, the american are responsible for the killing of 2+ million iraqis. funny math? yeah kinda like george bush math.</div> Funny because I don't believe in sanctions. That's not my problem. Sanctions have almost always been inhumane imo, I'm not fond of them.
So 200, 000 were killed by U.S. Troops. Thats what you're saying right? 200,000 is still a lot of people. And also, U.S. goal when going to Iraq was to find nuclear weapons. They didnt find any. So why are they still there with there guns watching people? What does that have to do with building a "government?" Even though you might think that Iraqi's are killing themselves, they actually in a sense are not. They are tired of U.S. troops being there. They can't live alone in peace. Everyday they prolly see U.S. troops standing with guns. Wonder if we had Iraqians troops standing outside our houses everyday. Wouldn't you get tired of that, when people come in your country for no reason, and are watching you 24/7. U.S. troops have made their lives worser than they already were. Which is the reason why they are commiting suicide everywhere. They are tired of this mess, they can't take it anymore, that's why they are commiting suicide. They are killing themselves because of the troops.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So 200, 000 were killed by U.S. Troops. Thats what you're saying right? 200,000 is still a lot of people. And also, U.S. goal when going to Iraq was to find nuclear weapons. They didnt find any. So why are they still there with there guns watching people? What does that have to do with building a "government?" Even though you might think that Iraqi's are killing themselves, they actually in a sense are not. They are tired of U.S. troops being there. They can't live alone in peace. Everyday they prolly see U.S. troops standing with guns. Wonder if we had Iraqians troops standing outside our houses everyday. Wouldn't you get tired of that, when people come in your country for no reason, and are watching you 24/7. U.S. troops have made their lives worser than they already were. Which is the reason why they are commiting suicide everywhere. They are tired of this mess, they can't take it anymore, that's why they are commiting suicide. They are killing themselves because of the troops.</div> Iraqis are committing homicide (not "killing themselves" as you put it) against other innocent people because we have gravely mishandled this campaign (they have now started a civil war) and now the savages have run wild. That country is full of psychos that kill for stupid reasons, don't forget that. However unjustified going to war originally was in your opinion, all we need to care about now is trying to put the pieces back together there (try to form any type of stable government). It's too late to leave, we should try and protect all the innocent people that we can and establish some authority there before we abandon them.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Iraqis are committing homicide (not "killing themselves" as you put it) against other innocent people because we have gravely mishandled this campaign (they have now started a civil war) and now the savages have run wild. That country is full of psychos that kill for stupid reasons, don't forget that. However unjustified going to war originally was in your opinion, all we need to care about now is trying to put the pieces back together there (try to form any type of stable government). It's too late to leave, we should try and protect all the innocent people that we can and establish some authority there before we abandon them.</div> So now they are phsycos? Just picture them here in our country, in front of our houses everyday. Wouldn't you be scared to go outside knowing you might be shot. How would that affect your life? A lot right. Just wonder how they feel, and how much their lives are effected by this. So you think they are just a bunch of phsycos that are just going around commiting homocide? Dude, like I said before, they are just tired of this crap, and can't stand it anymore. And btw, who asked Bush to form them a government. The #1 reason we went to Iraq was to get Saddam Hussein. We got him. #2 reason was to find any nuclear weapons. Did we find any? NO. Why are we still there ruining other people's lives. We have to find a stop at this. This is effecting us and them.
Because leaving them without a stable government would be the worst possible thing the US could have done. No offense Umair, but your arguments tend to contradict themselves a lot and are based entirely on emotions. I know it's difficult to see this happen to your region, but the damage has been done already. You have to look at the situation reasonably.
If U.S. wants to go to every country, then why don't they go to North Korea and find nuclear weapons there? Since U.S. thinks they are the most powerful nation in the world, why dont they go to North Korea? When they heard Iraq had nuclear weapons, they quickly went there, now Iran and North Korea are claiming to have nuclear weapons, so why don't U.S. go there? I just dont understand why US went to Iraq in the first place. Who asked them to build a government for them? Why waist so much money on this war. We never had to do this. U.S. is a nosy country. Yeah they are rich and all, but imo, i see them starting too much mess in the world.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Because leaving them without a stable government would be the worst possible thing the US could have done. No offense Umair, but your arguments tend to contradict themselves a lot and are based entirely on emotions. I know it's difficult to see this happen to your region, but the damage has been done already. You have to look at the situation reasonably.</div> Nicely put. When about 70% of Iraqis die at the hands of their fellow citizens, there are freaks on the loose there. Again, the original reason for being there doesn't matter, all we should care about now is protecting all the civilized people still left in that country. We created a mess that we need to try to solve.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If U.S. wants to go to every country, then why don't they go to North Korea and find nuclear weapons there? Since U.S. thinks they are the most powerful nation in the world, why dont they go to North Korea? When they heard Iraq had nuclear weapons, they quickly went there, now Iran and North Korea are claiming to have nuclear weapons, so why don't U.S. go there? I just dont understand why US went to Iraq in the first place. Who asked them to build a government for them? Why waist so much money on this war. We never had to do this. U.S. is a nosy country. Yeah they are rich and all, but imo, i see them starting too much mess in the world.</div> If you expect a government to always speak the truth and follow up on their words, politics is going to continue to piss you off for the rest of your life. You're arguing something that nobody dispute. Everybody pretty much agrees that the US lied and shouldn't have entered Iraq. So what then? You can't turn back time. You have to deal with the current situation and try and push for the people who made the mistakes/lies to be impeached.
Not really. Take him out of power, yes. But, if he's not a president, what would killing him do? Plus, there's more than just Bush behind these decisions.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If U.S. wants to go to every country, then why don't they go to North Korea and find nuclear weapons there? Since U.S. thinks they are the most powerful nation in the world, why dont they go to North Korea? When they heard Iraq had nuclear weapons, they quickly went there, now Iran and North Korea are claiming to have nuclear weapons, so why don't U.S. go there? I just dont understand why US went to Iraq in the first place. Who asked them to build a government for them? Why waist so much money on this war. We never had to do this. U.S. is a nosy country. Yeah they are rich and all, but imo, i see them starting too much mess in the world.</div> Before I post, I'm not really an expert on politics and if I'm wrong about something, please correct me. I know what you are saying Umair and the reason we aren't going into North Korea or Iran right now is because of everything that has happend. I think we all realize that this entire situation was handled wrong and many mistakes were made. If we went into North Korea or Iran it would just make things worse because we would be repeating our mistakes and would be looked at as a bully. Plus, we don't have the troops to go anywhere right now because we still have many soldiers in Iraq and Afganhistan. If you think about, the United States is probably vulnerable right now. If we were to be attacked, it would be a lot harder to do something about it because so many of our troops are spread out in different areas. This would probably lead to a draft and George Bush's approval rating would drop drastically. I know you think it would make sense if the United States just pulled all of our soldiers out right but how bad would that look? We would go from trying to help you build a government to realizing we messed up, starting a civil war, and then just leaving and letting you guys fend for yourselves. Bush would be criticized so much if he decided to pull everyone out of Iraq because it would look like we were giving up on building a stable government and getting out of there when things started getting messy.
^Nice Swish, my thoughts exactly. You pretty much summed up the whole situation accurately and concisely instead of using big words that don't make sense in their context-like a certain other poster in this thread.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nicely put. When about 70% of Iraqis die at the hands of their fellow citizens, there are freaks on the loose there. Again, the original reason for being there doesn't matter, all we should care about now is protecting all the civilized people still left in that country. We created a mess that we need to try to solve.</div> u don't get it do u? al queda would leave tomorrow if the US committed to leaving today. why? cause all the worlds fanatics have flocked to Iraq and renamed it JIHADISTAN, population- anti american. iraq is the modern afghanistan- a war perceived as an imperial assault on all things muslim. the american presence just exacerbates the terrorist fervour as indicated by US intelligence. if the US left, the foreign mujahadeen would leave and the iraqi's would be left to fight it out just like everywhere else on god's forsaken planet. but they can't abandon iraq cause they can't abandon the oil and reconstruction contracts on the behest of multinationals. and fyi- demonizing the occupied hasn't ever worked, they actually don't take too well to being called "uncivilized".
<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">u don't get it do u? al queda would leave tomorrow if the US committed to leaving today. why? cause all the worlds fanatics have flocked to Iraq and renamed it JIHADISTAN, population- anti american. iraq is the modern afghanistan- a war perceived as an imperial assault on all things muslim. the american presence just exacerbates the terrorist fervour as indicated by US intelligence. if the US left, the foreign mujahadeen would leave and the iraqi's would be left to fight it out just like everywhere else on god's forsaken planet. but they can't abandon iraq cause they can't abandon the oil and reconstruction contracts on the behest of multinationals. and fyi- demonizing the occupied hasn't ever worked, they actually don't take too well to being called "uncivilized".</div> First, why are you quoting only my post? I'm not the only one saying such things. Now clearly, we have destroyed their government in Iraq, and have little to show for it. The least we could do is give them any type of stability, I don't care about their oil. Also, what does it matter if I insult people that have been throwing acid in other citizen's faces? I could care less about offending them or being PC. With Hussein they had at least some type of order, now it is all gone to hell. I doubt Iraq would magically get better if the US left now, that just seems like guessing on your part. The fact of the matter is that Iraqis are murdering their neighbors and accounting for a majority of the deaths there.
^ Yes because everything is all Bush's fault, and the US will be a much nicer nation without him . I feel bad for you, because you lack common sense and just follow the media's lead of scapegoating Bush for all America's problems. The guy has made some mistakes in hindsight, but name one US president that hasn't. Who was the last president who was loved by citizens during his tenure?
Clinton? Everyone president has made mistakes, but did they make big mistakes that led to the killings of almost a million people. Bush started all of this mess going on in the world. Just for some stupid gas. I know everyone can agree that Bush started a lot of things going on in the world. He made too many mistakes as president.
Have you followed the Saddam trial at all? Have you heard of all the war crimes he has committed over the years? They were slaughtering innocent people over there. Some of the people over there are unstable maniacs. Before the US even came, they were burrying people alive and pointlessly burning oilfields. A stable government needs to be put in place over there. Are we talking about the same Clinton who was nearly impeached?
