<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 02:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It wasn't Hakeem and Shaq playing one on one the entire series, had that been the case Shaq could have shot ever time, and his weight would wear down Hakeem sooner or later. Your making it sound like Hakeem directly outplayed Shaq that series and that's why they won, which is not the case at all. It was the Rockets against the Magic, where the Rockets as a whole outplayed the Magic as a whole. Shaq did his part, unfortunately he didn't have another player on his team match what Drexler did for those finals, nor did he have players like Cassell and Horry that each stepped up in different games, Kenny Smith set a NBA finals single game three point record in the first game, Mario Elie played awesome throughout every game. He had a team around him that stepped up and played as well as they could, meanwhile Orlando's team really only played well in the first game of the series, except Shaq who played well every game.</div>As a whole the Rockets beat the magic, but as far as one on one also. Hakeem won that match up based on performance. ''You can say that it's a team structure and team that wins titles, but Duncan has been the driving force behind 4 titles. Without him that team would not be near what it is defensively, or close to having the versatility it does offensively. I really don't see that San Antonio team being any higher than an 8th seed without Duncan on the team. I think the best player since Jordan died has to be either Shaq or Duncan.''I quoted yourself. That same line stands true for Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1995 finals. I've beaten you in a debate. :happy0144:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That same line stands true for Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1995 finals. I've beaten you in a debate. :happy0144:</div>I dont think you did.I vote for Valo :happy0144:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clangus @ Jun 18 2007, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dont think you did.I vote for Valo :happy0144:</div>So your saying even though Hakeems team beat shaq in the finals in a sweep while scoring more points in every single game that shaq was still the better player? You continue to prove why your opinion means nothing. At least present a fact instead of kissing valos ass.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As a whole the Rockets beat the magic, but as far as one on one also. Hakeem won that match up based on performance. ''You can say that it's a team structure and team that wins titles, but Duncan has been the driving force behind 4 titles. Without him that team would not be near what it is defensively, or close to having the versatility it does offensively. I really don't see that San Antonio team being any higher than an 8th seed without Duncan on the team. I think the best player since Jordan died has to be either Shaq or Duncan.''I quoted yourself. That same line stands true for Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1995 finals. I've beaten you in a debate. :happy0144:</div>That was a completely different set of circumstances, and you didn't even put the rest of quote on there. In that case you was trying to argue why Lebron and Kobe are better than Duncan, which I was mearly saying that for their positions Duncan is better than Lebron and Kobe. Lebron didn't have a team around him, and it doesn't apply to him, but Kobe had a better team around him in the finals that he went to than Duncan has had in any of his finals. He had another player in Shaq that produced jus as well as Kobe did in those finals, maybe even better, and Kobe still wasn't able to get his team to win the finals. Duncan did it without another player doing what Shaq was able to do for Kobe, and cause him not to be double teamed the entire series. For this debate, Shaq didn't have another player taking up the scoring load like Olajuwan had in Drexler, and he didn't have a team around him that was producing like Kobe had. Shaq was consistently double teamed more than Olajuwan was, because Hakeem's team was hitting their shots while Shaq's team was not hitting their shots, and Olajuwan got help.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 03:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That was a completely different set of circumstances, and you didn't even put the rest of quote on there. In that case you was trying to argue why Lebron and Kobe are better than Duncan, which I was mearly saying that for their positions Duncan is better than Lebron and Kobe. Lebron didn't have a team around him, and it doesn't apply to him, but Kobe had a better team around him in the finals that he went to than Duncan has had in any of his finals. He had another player in Shaq that produced jus as well as Kobe did in those finals, maybe even better, and Kobe still wasn't able to get his team to win the finals. Duncan did it without another player doing what Shaq was able to do for Kobe, and cause him not to be double teamed the entire series. For this debate, Shaq didn't have another player taking up the scoring load like Olajuwan had in Drexler, and he didn't have a team around him that was producing like Kobe had. Shaq was consistently double teamed more than Olajuwan was, because Hakeem's team was hitting their shots while Shaq's team was not hitting their shots, and Olajuwan got help.</div>Where was Penny Hardaway then? He was busy getting blocked by Hakeem every time he tried to penetrate.And yes that does stand true to this. You said it is a team aspect but without Duncan they wouldnt win the title. what makes this any different?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So your saying even though Hakeems team beat shaq in the finals in a sweep while scoring more points in every single game that shaq was still the better player? You continue to prove why your opinion means nothing.</div>HA! your rebuttals are always missing the whole story and putting words in peoples mouth! Thats why your opinions and statements are so frustrating- its easy to delibrately mis quote someone and win an arguement. Your always seem to be trying to win debates but you never pay attension to what your "opponent" is saying. Now I expect this to be replied by you and you'll make reference to something I said and leave half of it out and then think youv'e won. I will stop wasting my time with you.
As far as O'Neal vs. Olajuwon goes, in that finals, I think Shaq held his own against the Dream. He was outscored by a bit, but outrebounded Hakeem and scored plenty himself. This was no mean feat. Look at how David Robinson, that year's MVP (in the voting anyway) did against Hakeem. Hakeem was the best player in the league at that point, and Shaq essentially played him to a standstill.After the series, Olajuwon said the following about Shaq:"Even if he doesn't get any better, he's still the best."As for Duncan being overrated, I can't help but think there is some of that now, especially if you listen to Mark Jackson blathering on about how Duncan is the "best power forward to ever play the game." He and Mike Breen rarely said anything useful.Putting Duncan above Hakeem is also a good step towards making him overrated, if people are saying that. Olajuwon never got his due when he played. He was the top man in the league for several years, and got one MVP out of it. Look at what he did in 89-90. 24 points a night, led the league in rebounding and blocked shots, and finishes 7th in MVP voting. Seventh!
I don't know where Penny Hardaway was, he pretty much disappeared after game 1. That Magic team was a good three point shooting team, and didn't shoot nearly as well from three point range as what they had the rest of the season. Hakeem wasn't out there blocking everyone of those open three point shots they got to take off of Shaq kick outs. As for that quote, I already told you that Kobe wasn't able to win, when he had another dominant player next to him in Shaq, that was doing just as much out there as what Kobe was doing. Duncan never had that other player as good as Shaq and still managed to push his team through, and once again that was a different set of circumstances where you didn't even get the whole quote. So that's not really a binding quote right now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know where Penny Hardaway was, he pretty much disappeared after game 1. That Magic team was a good three point shooting team, and didn't shoot nearly as well from three point range as what they had the rest of the season. Hakeem wasn't out there blocking everyone of those open three point shots they got to take off of Shaq kick outs. As for that quote, I already told you that Kobe wasn't able to win, when he had another dominant player next to him in Shaq, that was doing just as much out there as what Kobe was doing. Duncan never had that other player as good as Shaq and still managed to push his team through, and once again that was a different set of circumstances where you didn't even get the whole quote. So that's not really a binding quote right now.</div>So what is your reasoning for Shaq being better then Hakeem?and yes clangus by agreeing with Valo that is what you said you agreed to. it is not putting words in anyones mouth, thats what we've been discussing this whole time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 02:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So what is your reasoning for Shaq being better then Hakeem?and yes clangus by agreeing with Valo that is what you said you agreed to. it is not putting words in anyones mouth, thats what we've been discussing this whole time.</div>First off if we look at the argument, I might be wrong, but I don't believe I have claimed that Shaq was better that series than Hakeem. I claimed that Shaq was just as good that series as Hakeem was, and took it back at Hakeem, just the same way that Hakeem did. So Clangus agreeing with me, would be agreeing with the argument that Shaq was just as good that series as what Hakeem was.As for entire career's, I would take Shaq over Hakeem because he was more dominant than Hakeem was. Offensively he could score just as much as Hakeem on a better field goal percentage, he could pass out of double teams just as well and hit his guys to make things easier for them. He could dominate his man offensively just as well, and take over a game better than Hakeem could. Defensively while he might not have been as good as Hakeem, he could still cause problems in the paint and make other teams guards scared to enter just because of how big he was and the contact he could create. If you want proof, look at how Parker a few years ago stopped entering the lane and attacking the basket because of wanting to stay away from Shaq. So his ability to be dominant would be my reason to take Shaq over Hakeem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 03:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off if we look at the argument, I might be wrong, but I don't believe I have claimed that Shaq was better that series than Hakeem. I claimed that Shaq was just as good that series as Hakeem was, and took it back at Hakeem, just the same way that Hakeem did. So Clangus agreeing with me, would be agreeing with the argument that Shaq was just as good that series as what Hakeem was.As for entire career's, I would take Shaq over Hakeem because he was more dominant than Hakeem was. Offensively he could score just as much as Hakeem on a better field goal percentage, he could pass out of double teams just as well and hit his guys to make things easier for them. He could dominate his man offensively just as well, and take over a game better than Hakeem could. Defensively while he might not have been as good as Hakeem, he could still cause problems in the paint and make other teams guards scared to enter just because of how big he was and the contact he could create. If you want proof, look at how Parker a few years ago stopped entering the lane and attacking the basket because of wanting to stay away from Shaq. So his ability to be dominant would be my reason to take Shaq over Hakeem.</div>Hakeem could dominate just as well. You dont remember Hakeem charging through David Robinson in Drobs MVP campaign? Hakeem dominated every center you can think of from 1984+ Moses,Kareem,Parish,Ewing,Drob,Divac,etc. Just look at his 1994-1995 campaigns, they were probably the most dominant campaigns by any player ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0 ^Hakeem couldnt dominate like shaq my ass.Hakeem dominated more then Shaq. Shaq also won weak titles compared to Hakeem. Hakeems two titles were more hard-fought then any of shaqs 4. Shaq also had a better sidekick then Hakeem in every single championship and against weaker competition(The Nets,Pacers, and Sixers? Cmon!) compared to Malone+stockton,barkley+johnson and Drob's Spurs? and thats just in the western conference much less the Chicago Bulls Dynasty.
I can't really argue with you guys because I never saw Hakeem playBut I will say this, Duncan is the best player of my generation (people around 14 years old)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hakeem could dominate just as well. You dont remember Hakeem charging through David Robinson in Drobs MVP campaign? Hakeem dominated every center you can think of from 1984+ Moses,Kareem,Parish,Ewing,Drob,Divac,etc. Just look at his 1994-1995 campaigns, they were probably the most dominant campaigns by any player ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0 ^Hakeem couldnt dominate like shaq my ass.Hakeem dominated more then Shaq. Shaq also won weak titles compared to Hakeem. Hakeems two titles were more hard-fought then any of shaqs 4. Shaq also had a better sidekick then Hakeem in every single championship and against weaker competition(The Nets,Pacers, and Sixers? Cmon!) compared to Malone+stockton,barkley+johnson and Drob's Spurs? and thats just in the western conference much less the Chicago Bulls Dynasty.</div>Your showing of two minute clips on Youtube isn't proving anything, maybe you should try turning on ESPN classic and actually watching a game of basketball. I can make any player look good in two minute clipsShaq was able to dominate Ewing, Robinson, Divac, Mourning, Mutumbo, and many other big men he played early on during his Orlando Magic time. During that 94-95 season as a second year player Shaq averaged 40 points and 13 rebounds against the Knicks every time Ewing was on the court. He averaged 38 points and 16 rebounds against the Hornets every time Mourning was on the court, who is as good defensively as many of those you mentioned. Against the Spurs that year, Shaq averaged 32-12. So He was able to dominate those same centers when they played each other. Furthermore, your being very biased putting up who Hakeem played in the entire playoffs, while only mentioning the Lakers finals competition. They faced a tough western conference with teams like the Trailblazers, Kings, Duncan led Spurs, The Mavericks who were all very good teams at that time, they faced alot of talented teams also to get to the finals throughout the years. Plus early in his career when he was in a very talented Eastern Conference and was able to get his team to the finals. Shaq was dominating the league at that time as a very young player also.
Duncan probably is over-rated. Only because for so long everyone has said how underrated he is that now people have gone too far the other way. He is one of the greatest players of all time, but people are placing him too high on the list as of now. If he can continue his great play for another 4/5 years then we'll talk.
I think there has been a bit of a trend to overate Duncan but when a big man is the focal point of a multiple winning franchise, he will get a lot of the credit, but it's still a team game.He's either the best or 2nd best big man of this era (Shaq being the other)so he deserves credit and recognition. But as usual the media overhypes the now and forgets the history of this game.O'Neal vs Olajuwon, both are dominant big man and I'd argue they're about the same.Hakeem didn't dominate the way Shaq did, with size and power. He did it with speed and skill.regardless he played the greats of the 80's and 90's and is probably the best center to play during his career. Kareem was in the last 1/3 of his career and not the player he was, Moses was the better player for the first few years of Hakeem's career, but that ended too.Saying Olajuwon wasn't as dominant though.. it's plain ignorant. Of interest, Shaq often said in his early years that, Hakeem was the one of a few big men he respected when he played against him. Robert Parrish was another.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 04:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your showing of two minute clips on Youtube isn't proving anything, maybe you should try turning on ESPN classic and actually watching a game of basketball. I can make any player look good in two minute clipsShaq was able to dominate Ewing, Robinson, Divac, Mourning, Mutumbo, and many other big men he played early on during his Orlando Magic time. During that 94-95 season as a second year player Shaq averaged 40 points and 13 rebounds against the Knicks every time Ewing was on the court. He averaged 38 points and 16 rebounds against the Hornets every time Mourning was on the court, who is as good defensively as many of those you mentioned. Against the Spurs that year, Shaq averaged 32-12. So He was able to dominate those same centers when they played each other. Furthermore, your being very biased putting up who Hakeem played in the entire playoffs, while only mentioning the Lakers finals competition. They faced a tough western conference with teams like the Trailblazers, Kings, Duncan led Spurs, The Mavericks who were all very good teams at that time, they faced alot of talented teams also to get to the finals throughout the years. Plus early in his career when he was in a very talented Eastern Conference and was able to get his team to the finals. Shaq was dominating the league at that time as a very young player also.</div>That two minute clip doesn't even matter. He played that way for a majority of his career. I cant believe I heard ''Hakeem couldnt dominate'' come out of your mouth. Your talking about a guy who nearly averaged 30 ppg almost every season of his career! Shaq was also a dominant player but not in the terms of Hakeem Olajuwon who made it past the dynasty Lakers as a sophomore in the nba!EDIT: Aside from this Hakeemvs Shaq debate,by your logic Lebron is better then Duncan because he is much more dominant then Duncan is right now, but his team as a whole isnt up there with him. The simple fact is without Hakeem outscoring Shaq in EVERY game the Rockets wouldnt have won the finals. Without Duncan the spurs wouldnt have won the finals, yet you try to take it away from him and present no evidence other then that shaqs team as a whole played poorly. The team played poorly for a reason, the Rockets those two season were on a mission, and no team defensively could stop them as far as a complete team defense. Who anchored that defense? Hakeem Olajuwon. and unlike shaq, Hakeem could play defense his entire career and actually make those valuable free throws in the fourth quarter.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That two minute clip doesn't even matter. He played that way for a majority of his career. I cant believe I heard ''Hakeem couldnt dominate'' come out of your mouth. Your talking about a guy who nearly averaged 30 ppg almost every season of his career! Shaq was also a dominant player but not in the terms of Hakeem Olajuwon who made it past the dynasty Lakers as a sophomore in the nba!</div>Maybe you should learn to read better, because no body said he couldn't dominate. How many times today are you just going to take half of what I said, and forget the rest of it? I just said that Hakeem wasn't as dominant as Shaq was, because Shaq was bigger, stronger and could dominate his man and the other team physically better than Hakeem could do. As for that outrageous claim that he scored almost 30 points per game on his career, you do realise that he never once averaged 30 points per game on his career right? I have proof below. He never even averaged 28 points per game or more in his career, nor did he ever shoot the 58 percent from the field that Shaq has averaged for his career. Unlike Shaq who averaged 28 or more for 5 seasons in his career, two of those came in his first three years in the league when Centers like Mourning, Ewing, Divac, Mutumbo, Robinson, Olajuwan and many other big guys were in the league and all were playing well at that point in time. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: Aside from this Hakeemvs Shaq debate,by your logic Lebron is better then Duncan because he is much more dominant then Duncan is right now, but his team as a whole isnt up there with him. The simple fact is without Hakeem outscoring Shaq in EVERY game the Rockets wouldnt have won the finals. Without Duncan the spurs wouldnt have won the finals, yet you try to take it away from him and present no evidence other then that shaqs team as a whole played poorly. The team played poorly for a reason, the Rockets those two season were on a mission, and no team defensively could stop them as far as a complete team defense. Who anchored that defense? Hakeem Olajuwon. and unlike shaq, Hakeem could play defense his entire career and actually make those valuable free throws in the fourth quarter.</div>Lebron isn't more dominant than Duncan is at all, I don't even understand where you think something retarded like that. Duncan came dominate a game offensively just like Lebron can, and draws double teams on the block just as a big man does. Then on the defensive end of things, Duncan dominates the game like Lebron doesn't at all. There is no part of his teams defense that is anchored around Lebron. Plus the fact the fact that your great big men tend to be more dominant on a game due to them being bigger and more physical.That is unlike the Hakeem situation where Shaq was more dominant against his men on offense, while still anchoring the defense, even if he was lasy about it sometimes.As for that finals, they would have still lost had Shaq scored the same amount of points as Hakeem or not, considering they lost by more than Hakeem outscored Shaq in a couple of those games.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lebron isn't more dominant than Duncan is at all, I don't even understand where you think something retarded like that. Duncan came dominate a game offensively just like Lebron can, and draws double teams on the block just as a big man does. Then on the defensive end of things, Duncan dominates the game like Lebron doesn't at all. There is no part of his teams defense that is anchored around Lebron. Plus the fact the fact that your great big men tend to be more dominant on a game due to them being bigger and more physical.That is unlike the Hakeem situation where Shaq was more dominant against his men on offense, while still anchoring the defense, even if he was lasy about it sometimes.As for that finals, they would have still lost had Shaq scored the same amount of points as Hakeem or not, considering they lost by more than Hakeem outscored Shaq in a couple of those games.</div>Hakeem nearly averaged 30 that is what I said. If you really want to go into stats though, that would make Lebron a much better player considering he averages 28/8/8. Stats arent always the full story though. In the early 2000s when shaq had monster seasons, it was a result of the death at the center position. While shaq had always been a HOF player he benefited at that time from the second best player at his position being a mid 30s Dikembe Mutombo. But you are saying Lebron isnt as good as Duncan based on ''anchoring a defense '' why you still say Shaq is better then Hakeem because he ''put up better stats IE more dominant'' when they were clearly just as dominant as eachother but Hakeems defense,rebounding, and will is what seperates the two.You are contradicting yourself.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hakeem nearly averaged 30 that is what I said. If you really want to go into stats though, that would make Lebron a much better player considering he averages 28/8/8. Stats arent always the full story though. In the early 2000s when shaq had monster seasons, it was a result of the death at the center position. While shaq had always been a HOF player he benefited at that time from the second best player at his position being a mid 30s Dikembe Mutombo. But you are saying Lebron isnt as good as Duncan based on ''anchoring a defense '' why you still say Shaq is better then Hakeem because he ''put up better stats IE more dominant'' when they were clearly just as dominant as eachother but Hakeems defense,rebounding, and will is what seperates the two.You are contradicting yourself.</div>First off never getting above 28 a game and averaging around 25 during his prime is not nearly 30, that is a whole 5 to go before 30. Also putting up the fact that he scored below 20 in 5 of his seasons, proves that you don't really know what your talking about when you said that he put up nearly 30 points per game his entire career. Next off, your continuing to throw BS stats out there saying that Lebron averaged 28/8/8, as he averaged 27/6/6 this year, not 28/8/8, so if your going to pull some stat out of your ass, you might want to make sure they are correct as I have caught you on two baseless stats that you have decided to throw out there. As for Lebron James averaging more points than Duncan, that is completely different than this set of circumstances. Duncan is a low post player, whereas Lebron is a perimeter player, and any idiot can tell you that perimeter players are naturally going to average more points and assists than low post players these days. With the game turning to a more perimeter oriented game in this day and age, and with the perimeter players holding the ball for longer amounts of time, they naturally score more. That is why you can't compare stats between the two. What you can compare is how Duncan has dominated his position offensively, just as Lebron has dominated his position offensively. However, Duncan has been able to dominate his position on defense, in a way that Lebron will never be able to be that type of defensive player.Completely diffferent from Shaq and Hakeem who were both Centers and played the same position so comparing stats for them will hold up just a bit more. That is also opposed to Shaq who was more dominant offensively than Hakeem was, and could physically impose his will on another player and where them down physically throughout the game in a way that Hakeem couldn't do. Defensively he wasn't as great as Hakeem, and would at times be lasy, but when he was focused he wasn't to far behind Hakeem in being able to hold down the paint and cause problems on the defensive end for the other team.
