<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">^He is statistically better but he doesn't even have a .500 record? When do stats make you a better player in the first place. Don't give me the arguement about being in the East as well. JO has the best record in the NBA and that should count for something at least. What if Brand was put on a team with more talent? Would he still have the same type of stats anways? The fact is: With his stats he still can't lead a team to a .500 record. That should speak for itself.</div> I never said Brand was better than JO because he puts up better statistics...I said u can make an argument for him...statistics is obviously just one aspect... As for his record, I've watch a lot of Clipp games and I can tell u Elton is the least responsible for that poor record...the man is a beast under the basket, he's the one that keeps them in most of their games...Put JO...hell, put KG on the Clipps and they would still be under .500....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting _EcLiPsE_:</div><div class="quote_post">Dirk is not top 3, you have to factor in offensive and defensive ability, and defence is where he lacks (to say the least) and that +/- statistic is totally useless....it all depends on your teamates and how good your team is. You put a player like Garnett on the Magic team and his +/- rating would be mediocre too. They have that statistic in the NHL and the players with the highest +/- are on the best teams or are playing with the best players 1. Garnett 2. Duncam 3. Jermaine 4. Brand 5. Nowitzki</div> Garnett will never have a mediocre rating, even on the Magic, they're not worst in the league bad, they just don't have a leader, Garnett could be that leader. That stat has some factors that contribute to it, but I'd say it's legit, great players will make average ones play winning basketball, Brand doesn't do that. I didn't really think of Dirk as a power foward since he played center this season but if you want to you have to put him ahead of Brand. He's the best player on a team that racks up 50+ wins every season, is in the playoffs every season, western conference finals once. Dirk is one of the top 7-10 players in the NBA, no way you should rank him ahead of Brand, not on team success and especially not on talent.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Brand was better than JO because he puts up better statistics...I said u can make an argument for him...statistics is obviously just one aspect... As for his record, I've watch a lot of Clipp games and I can tell u Elton is the least responsible for that poor record...the man is a beast under the basket, he's the one that keeps them in most of their games...Put JO...hell, put KG on the Clipps and they would still be under .500....</div>^Okay with the KG statement I think you might be exaggerating just a bit...<font size="1">don't you think so??</font> I don't see why the Clips can't make it to .500 with the best player in the NBA. But thats besides the point. You were kind of making a case statistically how Brand was better than JO though. You are right about me not watching Clippers games though. I don't see Brand enough to see how he carries that team on a nightly basis. Which leads me to my main point about stats: If Brand was on a team that was contending with a good level of talent around him, would he still be averaging the same stats? I think not. It wasn't you but Thalord was basing his arguement the fact Brand was better because he had better stats. You were just making a case for the arguement, which I can understand.
Brand is better than Kmart, but the question that arises is is he better than Jermaine O'Neal? After what NMG has provided us with, the stats are very convincing to leading to a verdict. Brand is a better player if you look at the stats IMO. However, from what I've seen from Brand, he is not a player to build an offense around. His defense is great and all, but he is more of the kind that scores off putbacks and open shots. He is not better than O'Neal one-on-one. Btw, why isn't there any mention of Zach Randolph? His potential is amazing, and his stats aren't that bad either: 20.1ppg, 10.5rpg, .485 FG, 2.0apg, .84spg and .51bpg. Not much worse than Brand's to me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">^Okay with the KG statement I think you might be exaggerating just a bit...<font size="1">don't you think so??</font> I don't see why the Clips can't make it to .500 with the best player in the NBA. But thats besides the point. You were kind of making a case statistically how Brand was better than JO though. </div> Exactly! KG wins, period!
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Btw, why isn't there any mention of Zach Randolph? His potential is amazing, and his stats aren't that bad either: 20.1ppg, 10.5rpg, .485 FG, 2.0apg, .84spg and .51bpg. Not much worse than Brand's to me. </div> He also doesn't know what it means to play defense and can't pass if his life depended on it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are right about me not watching Clippers games though. I don't see Brand enough to see how he carries that team on a nightly basis. Which leads me to my main point about stats: If Brand was on a team that was contending with a good level of talent around him, would he still be averaging the same stats? I think not.</div> How would they change, nothing will prevent him from rebounding, and he gets a lot of points from getting offensive boards, going up strong, and then getting to the line or converting the shot, he's the master of getting And-1's. His scoring is not based on launching up shots all day, he takes about 14 shots a game, makes half of them then gets to the line 8 times a game. Q-Rich led the Clippers in FG attempts, but Brand and Maggette led the scoring, they're both the same, they get to the line like mad men, but read what I wrote beforeo n why they lost so much this year and his +/- stat. KG and Duncan are obviously much higher than the other guys I don't know what that debacle is. JO isn't on their level, neither is Brand or Dirk, him (JO) on the Clippers wouldn't have done any better than Brand did with them, he could have even made it worse because he demands more shots, but not too much worse. Brand on Indy would take less shots but help them get more second oppurtuunities, they could do worse because of getting used to his playing style but not too much worse, and they'd likely do the same of maybe even better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post"> I didn't really think of Dirk as a power foward since he played center this season but if you want to you have to put him ahead of Brand. He's the best player on a team that racks up 50+ wins every season, is in the playoffs every season, western conference finals once. Dirk is one of the top 7-10 players in the NBA, no way you should rank him ahead of Brand, not on team success and especially not on talent.</div> team success doesn't really have any bearing on whether someone is a top 5 power forward IMO. What i'm basing it on is OVERALL ability and that means both offensive and defensive aspects. Nowitzki has above average offensive ability but way below average defensive ability. You can't put him in the top 3 PF's in the league if he is a defensive liability
Kenyon Martins' on the ball defense & impact plays that lead to Nets wins cant be measured by stats but still need to be taken into consideration.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Brand was better than JO because he puts up better statistics...I said u can make an argument for him...statistics is obviously just one aspect... As for his record, I've watch a lot of Clipp games and I can tell u Elton is the least responsible for that poor record...the man is a beast under the basket, he's the one that keeps them in most of their games...Put JO...hell, put KG on the Clipps and they would still be under .500....</div> yea man for real..blamin' Elton for their losing is ridiculous. If I had to pinpoint a reason why they aren't a playoff team I would go with the point guard position. Jaric just ain't gettin' it done and he wont be the point that leads them to a playoff spot IMO.
^No one is blaming Elton for the losing but he does have some part in it does he not? He is still part of the team. Indiana does not have a much better point guard than LA does either. Actually Tinsley was benched for a good part of the season in favour of Kenny Anderson and Anthony Johnson.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting _EcLiPsE_:</div><div class="quote_post">team success doesn't really have any bearing on whether someone is a top 5 power forward IMO. What i'm basing it on is OVERALL ability and that means both offensive and defensive aspects. Nowitzki has above average offensive ability but way below average defensive ability. You can't put him in the top 3 PF's in the league if he is a defensive liability</div> If Nowitzki is just "above average" on offense than Elton Brand is way below average, bad defense but his offensive game is off the charts. Top 3 maybe not, right behind O'Neal is good...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">yea man for real..blamin' Elton for their losing is ridiculous. If I had to pinpoint a reason why they aren't a playoff team I would go with the point guard position. Jaric just ain't gettin' it done and he wont be the point that leads them to a playoff spot IMO.</div> And Andre Miller wasn't getting it done either?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">And Andre Miller wasn't getting it done either?</div> from what I seen Dre Miller played unbelievably bad while he was with the Clippers...him and the team didn't mesh at all from what I can tell.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">If Nowitzki is just "above average" on offense than Elton Brand is way below average, bad defense but his offensive game is off the charts. Top 3 maybe not, right behind O'Neal is good...</div> yeah, my bad, i do think Nowitzki has a spectacular offensive game...not top 3 PF but 4-5 i would agree with
^Top 4th or 5th power Foward?? The only game of his that says power foward is his height. This guy is straight up a small foward trapped in a power forwards body. There is no way I would choose him over O'neal or Brand whatsoever at the 4.
not necessarily true...for example Chris Webber has an almost non-existant post game and prefers to stay out in the perimeter and put up jump-shots...he's considered a power forward is he not? you definately would not consider him a small forward would you? I agree that Nowitzki is not a prototypical power forward, but you can't categorize him as a sf either, because there is not a sf in the league that can play the pf postion and avaerage 9-10 boards for a season
^I wouldn't consider Marion to be a PF but he is averaging a 1 board more than Dirk. I'm just sayin..... I consider him a small foward because he is ineffective as a Power Foward regardless of how many boards he gets. BTW I do not consider Webber a top 5 power foward and the ones I do consider play the traditional PF way (Blocking shots, grabbing boards, playing in the post and creating an inside presence). The reason I call Nowitzki a small foward is because his game is on the perimetre and thats where it stays for the most part. Here is my top five in terms of true PF's: Garnett Duncan JO Brand KMart Everyone else may call Dirk a PF but if I see a Small foward I will call it an Small Foward.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "Henacy":</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon Martins' on the ball defense & impact plays that lead to Nets wins cant be measured by stats but still need to be taken into consideration.</div> Same with Brand, but he doesn't have Jason Kidd. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">^No one is blaming Elton for the losing but he does have some part in it does he not? He is still part of the team. Indiana does not have a much better point guard than LA does either. Actually Tinsley was benched for a good part of the season in favour of Kenny Anderson and Anthony Johnson.</div> It's all about having a good drive and dish PG or passing PG, Jaric is not, Tinsley is, he did average 8 assists before, and I thought their was a riff between him and Carlisle, he didn't feel he was ready yet? Kenny Anderson and Anthony Johnson have one thing Jaric, Eddie House (basically a SG), and Dooling (another SG) don't, experience, and lots of it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "RocketLaunch":</div><div class="quote_post">If Nowitzki is just "above average" on offense than Elton Brand is way below average, bad defense but his offensive game is off the charts. Top 3 maybe not, right behind O'Neal is good...</div> Doesn't Brand average 19-20 points every year, he might not have the moves but if the points are getting on the boards its good. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "RocketLauch":</div><div class="quote_post">And Andre Miller wasn't getting it done either?</div> No he hasn't, I'm a big Andre fan but him and the Clippers didn't work at all, the players prefered Lamar Odom playing point than Miller, it was a huge chemistry problem with those guys. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "_EcLiPsE_":</div><div class="quote_post">not necessarily true...for example Chris Webber has an almost non-existant post game and prefers to stay out in the perimeter and put up jump-shots...he's considered a power forward is he not?</div> Webber still has a better post game and is more of a force inside that Dirk is or likely ever will be, and Dirk's defense puts him down a lot in the power forward rankings. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">Garnett Duncan JO Brand KMart</div> I'm fine with that list, I still think JO and Brand might be tied though, but that's good, but to say Brand is not at least top 4 is absurd.
