And Ike wasn't some raw rookie. He was a 4th year player. My point? Since you're incaple of figuring it out yourself: Channing Frye SUCKS. Channing Frye > Ike Diogu. That simple enough for you? BNM
I think that you're stubbornly and inexplicably clinging to 73 minutes worth of data and you're getting a bit emotional about it, personally. If you still think that Frye is better than Ike... I don't know what to tell you. Ed O.
thanks for dumbing it down for me.. now I understand. Channing Frye would actually look good in another system.. Channing Frye in this system was basically duplicating what we already had at a lower efficiency. Put him somewhere where he can shoot and not rebound he will do well. so for OUR team.. and our needs as a rebounder Ike Diogu>Channing Frye
Frye is poor at defense, poor at rebounding, doesn't draw fouls, score inefficiently. Diogu is poor at defense, good at rebounding, draws a lot of fouls, scores reasonably efficiently. The numbers bear this out. Diogu: 14.0 Rebound Rate, .577 TS%, 16.1 PER Frye: 13.6 Rebound Rate, .504 TS%, 13.6 PER While the rebounding looks similar, Frye's numbers are inflated a lot by his rookie season, a season he hasn't even approached in the three seasons since then. Diogu's numbers have actually improved over his career. If we looked at this past season's numbers, the differences between the two players would be vast.
Sure, but Turiaf is a much better backup PF because he plays defense - which was what my entire argument was all about... Let's just say that if KP and Nate chose to send him and stay with Frye as our backup PF down the stretch - there must be a little more to consider and I doubt they would have done that when the team was fighting to get into the playoffs and maybe even win HCA if they would have valued him more.
Well then, you think wrong. Disagree with me all you want, but don't belittle my opinion as "getting a bit emotional about it". Coach after coach Ike has had in the NBA has buried him on the bench. He has struggled to get minutes on lottery teams in Golden State and Indiana. Why the hell should he deserve minutes on a 54-win team? Yes, he has an inflated PER. PER largely ignores defense - so does Ike Diogu. Or maybe, Don Nelson Rick Carlisle, Jim O'Brian and Nate McMillian were all "getting a bit emotional" when they buried Ike's fat, lazy ass on the end of their benches. BNM
So does Frye. Frye doesn't bring defensive value. Diogu's PER isn't inflated, because it's a measure of productivity, not defense. Diogu is productive and lacks defense. Frye is unproductive and lacks defense.
He has suffered multiple injuries in his short career which largely contribute to that. You are obviously getting emotional about it.. I don't know why you care so much and it is just unnecessary to call him a fat, lazy ass.
I don't like him. He always seemed to chuck up shots when he was in the game and his defense was terrible.
Frye's DRtg this season was 108 - about average for the team. Ike's DRtg with the Blazers was 111 - tied for worst on the team. It was even worse with Sacrasmento (115 - which is absolutely abysmal). Ike Diogu is a horrible, horrible defender. Yes, he was a more productive offenseive player and a better offensive rebounder than Cahnning Frye, but Frye, in spite of not being very good, was a better defender and a better defensive rebounder. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think. Soomeone who is paid millions of dollars to know more about basketball than me thought Frye was more deserving or minutes, and ultimately more deserving of a roster spot than Ike. His previous coaches didn't think much of Ike either. Were they ALL wrong, too? BNM
Agreed, that was a bit harsh. Perhaps husky and unmotivated would have been more diplomatic. Or, perhaps Ike just needs a little tough love to provide the motivation he has lacked thoughout his NBA career. Yeah, he's a had a few minor injuries (FWIW, Frye had an absolutely devasting injury near the end of his rookie season, and came back early from surgery last fall, but no one around here seems to cut him any slack for his injury issues), but that hasn't kept him from coming into training camp in top physical condition. The fact that he comes into camp overweight and out of shape year after year shows a lack of motivation on his part. If he wants more minutes, all he has to do is get into better shape and put in a little effort on the defensive end. The guy definitely has some offensive talent, but until he puts in a little effort on the other end, he won't get to display it on a regular basis. BNM
They might be. There are frequently mistakes made on players, in all sports. Am I certain that his coaches have been wrong to bury him? No, of course not. But I do think his numbers suggest that he might be overlooked as a useful reserve player. He clearly has weaknesses. He's a poor defender and a poor passer. But he's got clear NBA-caliber tools when it comes to offensive rebounding, scoring around the hoop and drawing fouls. Those are all things that could be valuable in a bench player. Perhaps if he played more, he'd be exposed and his production in short bursts would be proven illusory. I'm open to that possibility. That said, Diogu seems like a promising candidate for an overlooked bit of value. Even coaches are wrong sometimes and the players they are wrong about tend to be players like Diogu: ones who don't have prototypical size, impressive athleticism or pretty skills. Diogu is not a very impressive player to watch, but he's ugly-effective.
If you read the article, the author provides some numbers to back up what I've been saying about Ike all along - he's a selfish offensive player that doesn't help his team or play a lick of defense. Here's some quotes from the article (and keep in mind the author was trying to make a case for Diogu as a overlooked, under appreciated possible back-up for his team): "Offense It may say something that his team’s offense has performed worse with him on the floor in each of his four seasons in the league, according to 82games.com. " "His career assist rate of 5.1 (meaning he assists of 5.1 percent of teammates’ baskets when he’s on the floor) is well below average, suggesting he may not be a good team offensive player." About Diogu’s defense: His team has been worse defensively with him on the floor, in terms of points allowed per 100 possessions, in three of his four seasons. The exception? The 42 games he played in ‘06-07 for Indiana, when the Pacers defense, for whatever reason, was 4.6 points stingier per 100 possessions with Ike in the line-up, according to 82games. But it’s been all down hill since then, as his individual defensive rating has jumped to nearly 115 (really, really bad) over the last two seasons." "And it’s worth noting that despite those two monster games with the Kings, the team still performed worse on both ends overall with Diogu on the floor." Throughout his career, according to 82games.com, Diogu's teams have consistenly performed WORSE on both ends of the court when he's in the game. He puts up good individual numbers on offense, but hurts his team's over all offensive production. And, he's just flat out terrible on defense. If it had only happened one or two places, I could buy that he just didn't get a fair chance, but it's been going on for four years and with four different teams and five different coaches. As a result, I have a hard time buying the "unlucky coincidence" argument. BNM
None of which I've disputed. I specifically said defense and passing were his weaknesses. The reason the author was making a case for Diogu (and finished still believing that he might be a decent option if the Celts didn't have Glen Davis, who's also undersized), is because we're talking about a possible reserve. If he was a good defender and passer, in addition to his abilities as an offensive rebounder, inside scorer and drawer of fouls, he'd be a very good starter. It's hard to use a poor passing offensive player as a starter, but it's a lot easier to use such a player as a bench weapon, since most teams have trouble finding scoring with their second string. Diogu is an awful choice as someone to rely on as a go-to guy, since he doesn't pass (whether that's due to selfishness or inability is not my concern). As a reserve meant to suck up some minutes while the players you rely on to win are resting, he makes a potentially nice option. He gets you some rebounds, scores a few points, maybe draws a few fouls on opposing big men and then he's out of the game again. If your contention is that Diogu has serious flaws, there's no question about that. Most reserve players have clear flaws or else they'd start somewhere. But I don't think those flaws preclude him from providing value off the bench.
Yup, read the article. However I tend to give more credence to what I can see with my own eyes. His behavior before games gave me the impression he could give two shits about playing or not. I do not believe everything I read. Do you?
His flaws are serious enough that he hurts his team at both ends of the court - even though he plays most of his minutes against other back-ups. To me, that sounds like a below average back-up. If I have a winning team, I want my back-ups out performing the other team's back-ups. That doesn't mean they have to be "starter quality" players, just avgerage to better than average back-ups. Ike, thoughtout his career, if you believe the stats at 82games.com, has "helped" his teams underperform at both ends of the court, even against weak competition. To me, that sounds like he should be a back-up on a bad team (like the Kings), not a 54-win playoff team. In the right situation (bad team), I have no doubt he could post some gaudy individual stats. However, I remain convinced that it's very unlikely he will ever be even a minor rotation player on a 50+ win team - especially one that goes deep in the play-offs where his poor defense would be a serious liability. BNM
I think we're giving different levels of importance to his offensive/defensive +/- numbers. I think +/- is an interesting concept, but a lot of statisticians have said that those types of numbers are too noisy to be very informative until a large sample (like several seasons of significant minutes) has been built up. Such a sample is what we don't have with Diogu, so I put more weight on his direct numbers (like PER, TS%, etc) rather than indirect numbers like +/-. As I said, I'm open to the possibility that his production would be exposed as not valuable if given consistent minutes. I wouldn't give him much more than the veteran's minimum. But I think there's a decent chance that he could be a useful backup, one who likely hurts the team on the defensive end but more than makes up for it on the offensive end.
These aren't just simple +/- stats. They are relative stats - how his team performs with him on the court vs. how they perfom when he's not on the court. And yes, sample size is always a concern. However, Ike has over 2300 minutes of playing time, on four different teams, and he has consistently hurt his teams on both ends of the court. His performance in Portland, if it was an isolated case, could be chalked up to a statistical anomaly. However, when a consistent pattern emerges over four seasons, 2300 minutes and four different teams, it's much harder to discount as just a small sample size. Perhaps his production has been impacted by the cumulative effect of his injuries. Perhaps he just hasn't been in the right situations. Given the consistency of the results, I'm more inclined to conclude that perhaps he just isn't very good. BNM
That's exactly what +/- is. A relative measure of how the team performs when a player is on the court versus when he is off the court. Such statistics generally require several seasons of solid minutes to be informative, a sample size which we don't currently have for Diogu. Therefore, I don't consider that to be a very good measure of Diogu's impact on a team. Direct measurements of individual impact, like PER, need a much smaller sample size to be useful. Those measures are quite positive on Diogu. Thus, I'm more inclined to believe he's a useful player when it comes to offense and rebounding. I don't think he's a useful defensive player, from having watched him play a fair amount (I live in the Bay Area, I saw him as a Warrior, as well as a Blazer). I'm not alleging that he is. There are quite a few defensively-lacking starters, let alone reserves. You're just not going to find a lot of players who are valuable on both ends, especially among reserves. A player who's not very good defensively but is good at rebounding and scoring inside can still be a useful reserve, and I think Diogu is quite possibly such a player. Rather, I think he has been such a player in the few minutes he's played over the years in the NBA and quite possibly could continue to produce at that level over more minutes.
