Are you denying that you're being emotional for some reason here? Do you really think that comments like and are detached, reasoned positions to take? Really? I was sort of trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you were just riled up, for some reason, rather than acting like a nine year-old. As for belittling an argument: you had made no argument at that point. You'd just thrown out the same stuff that had been articulated before he was traded to Sacramento... which is, essentially, that since he's not playing that he doesn't DESERVE to play. Which is not logic that I find that helpful or interesting. Ed O.
As opposed to acting like a condescending jerk? The arguments I've made against Diogu are well documented and reinforced by the article linked in the first post of this thread. If I have an "emotional" bias against Ike Diogu, it's nothing person, just my general dislike of selfish players who don't play defense. If you think that's an "emotional" argument, go look at his assist rate and defensive stats at basketball-reference.com and 82games.com and prove me wrong. I happen to value things like defense and team play. I think it's what separates winners from losers. My opinion, which is backed up by the stats, is that Ike Diogu is far, far below average in these two areas. Therefore, I don't want him on my team. It's as simple as that. Once upon a time, we had a MUCH, MUCH better selfish, stat padding, no defense playing undersized, overweight power forward on our roster. When we traded him, our supposed "best player" at the time, we gave him away for practically nothing - and yet the team isntantly got a whole lot better, didn't it. I seem to recall you predicting all kinds of doom and gloom at the time. So, forgive me if I don't simply bow down and accept your opinion on the value of Ike Diogu. But hey, feel free to start your own Ike Diogu fan club if it makes you happy. BNM
No sir I do not.. I just dont presume to think that watching someone goof around during warmups, means I have any idea about someone's attitude. Just me though maybe.
So now we are worrying about stopping the backup PF's of the world? We are worried about the Josh Powell's, Joe Smith's, Stromile Swift's, and Darko Milicic's of the nba? Look just because someone doesnt agree with you.. doesnt mean you need to get all riled up and talking down to people.
You were being condescending, yes, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that you were being a jerk. So why do you need to treat people that disagree with you like morons? All sorts of doom and gloom? You thought that I thought the team would be worse after adding Oden and having second-year players in Aldridge and the RotY Roy? Maybe I was, but I doubt it. I thought it was a terrible trade and I still think it's a bad trade, pending the Blazers using the salary cap space to get something, which might change my mind. We took on a terrible contract in Francis and a terrible player in Channing Frye. The only thing we got out of the deal was a trade exception that was used to get Rudy, and I'm pretty confident we would have been able to get the pick to take him even without that. The team would have been better served to hold onto Zach for another year and make a deal like the Knicks did. Ed O.
This is what I responded to: "and Bayless couldnt beat out Sergio for meaningful minutes.. whats your point?" That's a total non-argument in my book and has NOTHING to do with the value Ike Diogu. If someone posts a repectable argument, I will respond in kind. If they don't, well they get what they deserve. I could be wrong, but I could swear you predicted the Blazers would win FEWER games than the 32 they won the year before - and that was before Oden got injured. We also got a year's worth of James Jones, and while we didn't end up keeping him, he had a big impact while he was here. The Blazers had a much better record in games he played in than in games he didn't. And Frye wasn't so terrible his first year with the Blazers. Although I admit I was hugely disappointed in his performance this year. Of course, the big prize was Rudy. Sure, we might have been able to have acquired him some other way without giving up Zach, but what would it have cost us to do so? Who knows. And what exactly of great value did the Knicks get for Zbo? They got Tim Thomas (an expiring contract) and Cutino Mobley, who couldn't even pass his physical and was forced to retire. Sounds like the Knicks got even less for Zbo than the Blazers did. He was basically given away for cap space for a second time. Getting traded once for crap may not indicate the true worth of a player, but getting traded a second time for even stinkier crap starts to define a trend. BNM
I would rather have had two years of Zach than two years of Steve Francis (which was nothing) and Frye (which was, in some ways, worse than nothing). Assuming we could have made the same deal that the Knicks did (which was sort of a worst-case scenario, as the Knicks were eager to get out from under his deal after stinking for the 11,234rd straight season), I would rather have taken my chances keeping Zach for another year and seeing if it would have worked out. Ed O.
So my comment offended you so much that you've been on a 6 hour meltdown? I just found your point about Frye getting time over him moot.. because both hardly played at all.. same with Sergio and Bayless.
Awww... did the big bad boob man hurt your wittle feelings Good lord. You wanted more information and you got it. You asked my point. I gave it and backed it up. Next time, if you don't want it, don't ask for it. Or better yet, put me on ignore. Stop the self-pity party and *edited*. BNM
Since none of the other players were, and supposedly Ike was fighting for playing time, I believe it was telling. It sure as hell showed on the defensive side of the ball when he did play. There was a very good reason he couldn't get off the bench.
You completely missed the point (again). Ike Diogu, on EVERY team he's ever played on has given up more points than he's produced. The stats at 82games.com show that his team has consistently preformed worse on both ends of the court when he's in the game. I don't need my back-up power forward to be a lock down defender, but I would like him to do more good than harm when he's on the court. Ike Diogu simply isn't that guy. The stats show that he consistently hurts his team more than he helps them. And yes, the sample size with the Blazers is small, but he's played over 2300 minutes in the NBA and the results have been the same everywhere he's played. That's not a meltdown, it's cold hard facts. Disagree all you want, but please either dispute the arguments I've presented against Diogu, or present some in his favor - that you can back up with facts. BNM
Look just like most would agree.. numbers dont mean everything when they could be skewed.. like us giving up in the top 5 or so in defensive ppg as a team... yet you and I both know that we werent a good defensive team. So in Diogu for example.. I dont have numbers to say how many of those minutes were garbage time minutes when the team is up by quite a bit. But I would venture to guess thats when he played a lot of his time, and much of the time in garbage time that lead shrinks some.. even by double digits. You know how a lot of the time you hear announcers say at the end of the game "and the score wasnt really indicative of how close (or not close) the game was" so if youre in during those times, naturally youre going to have stats like that. Unless you were expecting Ike to pick up the intensity for all 5 men on the floor when down or up by 20. The meltdown comment was more on your reactions to people who just dont agree with you.
fair enough, I guess its all speculative on both our sides, because neither one of us has any idea really on his attitude, since we arent around him, or werent with the team when he was here.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me at all, but I appreciate it when they actually back up what they say. You jumped all over LittleAlex for what "he saw with his own eyes" and now you're trying to rationalize why Ike has had a consistently negative impact at both ends of the court on every team he's every played on based on some assumptions with no data to back them up. When Ike plays in garbage time, it's garbage time for both teams. Nobody really plays defense - which may explain why Ike scores as much as he does. The garbage time argument works both ways. He's playing against the other teams' end-of-the-bench guys - and has consistently gotten out played by them. And not all of Ike's minutes have been garbage time. He played more significant minutes is rookie year - and the results were still the same - his team suffered on both ends of the court when he was in the game. It's not an anomaly, it's a pattern. BNM
Jumped all over him? I would hardly say that I jumped on him, I never went to belittling him for disagreeing with me.. that was the route you went. And I agree with you about it goign both ways with him scoring against garbage guys.. but Scoring wasnt one of the things that I was lobbying for our backup PF to do, at the beginning I mentioned at him not being inept at scoring. but Rebounding is what we need at backup PF IMO and he offers that. And on Ike not playing all garbage minutes.. you bring up his rookie year. So its Rookie stats and garbage stats that its based on. I dont think many expected him to come in and dominate as a rookie. So I apologize that I dont have actual stats to support my thoughts, there really arent any stats to backup my argument on this one.
I don't see where he implied you hurt his feelings.. I just see him talking about your meltdown, which is obviously still on.
Since when is stating a rational argument and backing it up with cold hard facts a "meltdown"? If it is, then we need more meltdowns around here. I've backed up my position with facts - not just opinions and gut feelings. I have a low tolerance for those who eschew the former and base their positions on the latter. If that makes me a bad guy, so be it. Whatever. BNM
haha yeah there was about 5 new posts from when I saw that and when I posted mine I'm just skimming through for the insults, everyone loves a good, pointless cyber-argument
