<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, actually it isn't. That's part of being a popular sports figure/celebrity.I'll take Jesse Owens, Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Bo Jackson and Mark Spitz all ahead of Micheal, for starters. Not necessarily in that order, but all in front of MJ.If being the greatest at a single sport is enough, I'll take Wayne Gretzky ahead of Jordan every day and twice on Sunday.</div>Revolutionizing the game is a part of being the best athlete of all time. Best athlete should, IMO, take everything into account, from talent, to accomplishments, to influence, etc... No other athlete combined these things and became a legend quite like Jordan. An American sports athlete is more than just an athlete, it is a figure and idol. Aside from this aspect, the majority, whether it be opposing players or unbiased fans, are in agreement that Jordan was the greatest player of all time.Again, to take athletes who competed at the dawn of the 20th century is dumb. As I said before, you really think a 6'1'' 180lbs running back would dominate in the NFL the past 3 decades? And while I respect your choice of Wilt over MJ, I completely disagree with that. MJ would dominate any era of basketball, he had more heart and killer instinct than Wilt ever did, more talented overall than Wilt, and more accomplished and influential.
Michael Jordan revolutionized the sport of basketball, he popularized the sport worldwide, and dominated the game at the same time.I really don't see how you can argue against his legacy...let alone say you'd take the likes of Jesse Owens and Michael Johnson over such a larger-than-life character.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jun 7 2007, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> Michael Jordan revolutionized the sport of basketball, he popularized the sport worldwide, and dominated the game at the same time.I really don't see how you can argue against his legacy...let alone say you'd take the likes of Jesse Owens and Michael Johnson over such a larger-than-life character.</div>Jordan never demonstrated that he was a great all around athlete. He was just a great basketball player. Those other guys were great athletes.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan never demonstrated that he was a great all around athlete. He was just a great basketball player. Those other guys were great athletes.</div>What the hell? Jordan wasn't a great all around athlete? Who needs to be good at more than 1 sport to be considered a great athlete? sh*t, you DO know he played baseball, right?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 7 2007, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Again, to take athletes who competed at the dawn of the 20th century is dumb. As I said before, you really think a 6'1'' 180lbs running back would dominate in the NFL the past 3 decades?</div>Jim Thorpe was not just a running back. He was the most accomplished all around athlete in his day or any since. He's most famous not for football, but for the Olympics. MJ played basketball. Thorpe was a pentathalon, decathalon champion, pro football, baseball and basketball player. Excelled at everything he did. Excelled.Jordan excelled at one sport after dedicating his life to it, and failed at others.Even if there were no other candidates of note, Thorpe belongs in front of Jordan by a landslide.Chamberlain belongs in front of Jordan on the basketball AND athlete lists, but belongs further ahead as an athlete.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan never demonstrated that he was a great all around athlete. He was just a great basketball player. Those other guys were great athletes.</div>How does the fact that he was not a great all-around athlete transition to him being overrated in the NBA? He revolutionized one of the top sports in the world. Everyone wanted to be like Mike. Kids on the playgrounds would have their tounges hanging out driving to the basket. That wasn't all media, it was because he was a great basketball player. He had the talent and the killer instinct to win numerous NBA titles with a mediocre supporting cast. He's so great that fans compare every great player in the NBA to Jordan. Jordan always comes out on top by a mile. When Jordan left, the Bulls went into the seemingly "dark ages" for a while until they rebuilt the team they have now. Jordan is not overrated at all in my book.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrizzFanTaylor @ Jun 7 2007, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How does the fact that he was not a great all-around athlete transition to him being overrated in the NBA? He revolutionized one of the top sports in the world. Everyone wanted to be like Mike. Kids on the playgrounds would have their tounges hanging out driving to the basket. That wasn't all media, it was because he was a great basketball player. He had the talent and the killer instinct to win numerous NBA titles with a mediocre supporting cast. He's so great that fans compare every great player in the NBA to Jordan. Jordan always comes out on top by a mile. When Jordan left, the Bulls went into the seemingly "dark ages" for a while until they rebuilt the team they have now. Jordan is not overrated at all in my book.</div>The topic shifted. He isn't the "best ever" athlete that he was voted.That makes him overrated, not as a basketball player, but as an athlete.
Oh, well then that I understand then. I just thought we were still on the "basketball".Go on then. :dribble: And, I would have to agree with you that Jordan may not be the greatest athlete, I'm just going to leave is as he was up there at the top. He didn't prove to be that great at any other sports besides basketball. Baseball ended up a flop.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 01:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jim Thorpe was not just a running back. He was the most accomplished all around athlete in his day or any since. He's most famous not for football, but for the Olympics. MJ played basketball. Thorpe was a pentathalon, decathalon champion, pro football, baseball and basketball player. Excelled at everything he did. Excelled.Jordan excelled at one sport after dedicating his life to it, and failed at others.Even if there were no other candidates of note, Thorpe belongs in front of Jordan by a landslide.Chamberlain belongs in front of Jordan on the basketball AND athlete lists, but belongs further ahead as an athlete.</div>Your logic is so flawed..Sure, Thorpe was a versatile athlete, but how does that make him better as an athlete? Wilt Chamberlain was known for his basketball, Brown for his football, Michael Johnson for his track; no one gave a sh*t about anything else...I'm not sure if they (and the examples you gave) even "excelled" at another sport....EVEN IN their respective sports, which one of them elevated their sports to a higher level than Jordan? Which one of them dominated their sport as much as Jordan (Wilt is arguable, but that's for another day)? Which one of them popularized their respective sports more than Jordan with his? Which one of them revolutionzed their respective sports more than Jordan with basketball? ANSWER: NONE of them.Sure, Thorpe was versatile as hell, but Jordan is/was Elvis-status in the sports world...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jun 7 2007, 02:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your logic is so flawed..Sure, Thorpe was a versatile athlete, but how does that make him better as an athlete? Wilt Chamberlain was known for his basketball, Brown for his football, Michael Johnson for his track; no one gave a sh*t about anything else...I'm not sure if they (and the examples you gave) even "excelled" at another sport....EVEN IN their respective sports, which one of them elevated their sports to a higher level than Jordan? Which one of them dominated their sport as much as Jordan (Wilt is arguable, but that's for another day)? Which one of them popularized their respective sports more than Jordan with his? Which one of them revolutionzed their respective sports more than Jordan with basketball? ANSWER: NONE of them.Sure, Thorpe was versatile as hell, but Jordan is/was Elvis-status in the sports world...</div>By your logic, The Great One, Wayne Gretzky, takes Jordan down. And Wilt changed the game more than Jordan did. The NBA made rules to help Jordan (and of course, make money in the process). With Wilt, they changed the rules just to make it possible to compete with him.I really can't understand why it's such a religion to people to have everyone agree that MJ is the "best ever." Why isn't it good enough to acknowledge him as one of the greatest? What is it that is so satisfying about trashing all the other players?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 7 2007, 03:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>By your logic, The Great One, Wayne Gretzky, takes Jordan down. And Wilt changed the game more than Jordan did. The NBA made rules to help Jordan (and of course, make money in the process). With Wilt, they changed the rules just to make it possible to compete with him.I really can't understand why it's such a religion to people to have everyone agree that MJ is the "best ever." Why isn't it good enough to acknowledge him as one of the greatest? What is it that is so satisfying about trashing all the other players?</div>Wilt was dominant in his time, yeah...but funny thing is, with the 100 point games taken into effect, with all the rules he changed, he STILL never won a ring until the twilight of his career which still was a huge notch in his legacy....Let me ask you though: Where was basketball back then as compared to where it is now? Yeah.
Nope. Jordan is not overrated. His leadership skills were unparalleled. Doug Collins once about Jordan something like, "He could get you to jump off a bridge or at least think about it for a moment". If his teammates hated him, why would they stay with him for so many years? Because of his brilliance, anyone that played with him got contracts to play with other teams after he retired. And most of those players were terrible yet they managed to stay in the NBA. (Luc Longley, Jud Buechler, etc..) Why? Because Jordan has the ability to make everyone that plays alongside him look great. He is also the best overall player that has ever played. He understood both the physical and mental aspect of the game. Few players in this generation understand this concept. Many believed Jordan couldn't hit the outside jumper. But he could and was quite good at it during the 6-year run at the title and even before that. I've watched quite a few of his games. The only reason people thought he couldn't hit the outside shot was because he didn't take many. And his stats were highly skewed because the threes he DID take were usually forced shots that he HAD to take. He never just came down the court and comfortably pulled up for a three. He was smart enough to never settle. He always tried to get to the rim or at least get closer for a better shot. I have never seen a player better than Michael Jordan. The younger generation, I've noticed, believe that the players from this era of basketball could overtake or have overtaken Jordan as an individual player. I disagree. Jordan never had to use 100% of his entire skillset because his teams during the two three-peats were talented enough for him to hold back. Jordan was always all about winning. Nothing else mattered. This era of basketball puts a large emphasis on athleticism and physical ability while detracting from the mental approach to the game which Jordan had mastered. There will never be a player greater than Michael Jordan in terms of impact. But in terms of talent, it'll happen eventually. But it hasn't happened yet. No, Kobe fans, he's not better than Jordan. I've watched a lot of Jordan games, Kobe games, Wade games, LeBron games, and T-Mac games. In terms of the level of skill and winning attitude Jordan brought to the game, I'd have to go with LeBron James. At such a young age, he's already learned to trust his teammates and put winning above all else. Above scoring titles, individual accolades, etc. Though Kobe has improved on understanding the importance of a team in this past year, he has generally been a self-absorbed gunner throughout his career. Jordan was a gunner during his first few seasons in the league. But he did it with great efficiency. There's a difference between taking a ridiculous amount of jumpshots while ignoring your wide open teammates and aggresively attacking the rim every time down the court, which is generally what Jordan did. This is a fact many fail to realize. Jordan's FG% was high not because the general FG% of that era was high. It was high because he attacked the rim almost every time down the court. And with the new league rules, which favor perimeter players, every guard should attack the rim constantly.Oh well, I may have gotten off topic. I really didn't even read most of the previous replies. But that's my rant. It just irritated me to see people actually believe Jordan is overrated. When in reality, players now are overrated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (His Greatness @ Jun 7 2007, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Which one of them dominated their sport as much as Jordan</div>Michael Johnson is the greatest 200m & 400m runner of all time, he destroyed all in his path and raised the bar to a level that most people thought wouldn't be reached for years yet.Look, I'm not saying Jordan asn't a great athlete and he certainly played a huge part in making Basketball a huge Worldwide sport, but there are other greats out there too.
Michael Jordan is probably the most recognizable athlete in the world. Combine that with his success and how much he helped the game of basketball and it's impossible to say anyone else was greater than him. Jordan expanded basketball from a national level to a worldwide level. He failed at baseball? The fact that this guy could do ANYTHING at a professional level after not playing for so long is amazing. So what if he sucked by pro standards? He could still compete a little bit. Wilt is not greater than Jordan. He didn't win as much on the court, and didn't expand the game off the court the way Jordan did. They changed the rules so the rest of the league could compete? How many titles did he win compared to the Celtics? He wasn't nearly as dominant as you like to think he was. Changing the rules was more of a result of larger and large players being incorporated into the league, and Wilt was the best of the big men, but it's not like he was winning titles all by himself. Gretzky? Sure he helped Hockey a ton, but where is the game now? It was never ahead of basketball or football in the USA, and now it's actually worse off than it was when Gretzky was a rookie. His impact hasn't been as long lasting as Jordan's. Thorpe, Johnson, and etc aren't in the argument, because no matter how much you argue they'll never have the cultural impact Jordan has.Jordan may not be the "best" athlete ever, but he's certainly the greatest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Living_Legend33 @ Jun 7 2007, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Michael Jordan is probably the most recognizable athlete in the world. Combine that with his success and how much he helped the game of basketball and it's impossible to say anyone else was greater than him. Jordan expanded basketball from a national level to a worldwide level. He failed at baseball? The fact that this guy could do ANYTHING at a professional level after not playing for so long is amazing. So what if he sucked by pro standards? He could still compete a little bit. Wilt is not greater than Jordan. He didn't win as much on the court, and didn't expand the game off the court the way Jordan did. They changed the rules so the rest of the league could compete? How many titles did he win compared to the Celtics? He wasn't nearly as dominant as you like to think he was. Changing the rules was more of a result of larger and large players being incorporated into the league, and Wilt was the best of the big men, but it's not like he was winning titles all by himself. Gretzky? Sure he helped Hockey a ton, but where is the game now? It was never ahead of basketball or football in the USA, and now it's actually worse off than it was when Gretzky was a rookie. His impact hasn't been as long lasting as Jordan's. Thorpe, Johnson, and etc aren't in the argument, because no matter how much you argue they'll never have the cultural impact Jordan has.Jordan may not be the "best" athlete ever, but he's certainly the greatest.</div>Practically everything you have said is irrelevant, and again shifts off topic from "greatest athlete" which Jordan was not, and "greatest sports celebrity" which he has a good claim on. Claiming things like how many fans he had and how much money a league made are valid criteria is absolute nonsense. When someone says "best athlete" it means something. Look up the word.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Milgod @ Jun 7 2007, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Michael Johnson is the greatest 200m & 400m runner of all time, he destroyed all in his path and raised the bar to a level that most people thought wouldn't be reached for years yet.Look, I'm not saying Jordan asn't a great athlete and he certainly played a huge part in making Basketball a huge Worldwide sport, but there are other greats out there too.</div>Good points. Voting MJ best athlete of the century is immensely disrespectful to the myriad of others who are much better athletes. They couldn't take him at basketball (though Wilt probably could), but they'd beat him at 9/10 other athletic events.Let's get back on topic or end this, though. Jordan is overrated as a basketball player because people claim he is worlds ahead of all the other candidates written about in this thread. Not only is he not ahead by miles, but there are legitimate arguments for putting many of them ahead of him. When every NBA commentator and hyper quits with the "Jordan is clearly the best ever" mantra, he might have a chance of not being overrated, but not before.
Jordan isn't the best athlete ever. No way. He is the greatest basketball player ever. That is all there is too it. Jordan isn't even a top 5 athlete I think. He was a very good athlete, maybe top 10 all time, but the best ever.
Well, basketball players, particularly guards, have all aspects of athleticism. They may be the most well-rounded athletes on earth. Most others are mainly specific to one skill or strength, so voting MJ #1 isn't that bad. If Tiger Woods was voted #1, then I'd be pissed, he does what old retired dudes do, that ain't athletic.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Jun 9 2007, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, basketball players, particularly guards, have all aspects of athleticism. They may be the most well-rounded athletes on earth. Most others are mainly specific to one skill or strength, so voting MJ #1 isn't that bad. If Tiger Woods was voted #1, then I'd be pissed, he does what old retired dudes do, that ain't athletic.</div>agreed, I think basketball players probably are the most well rounded athletes one earth (maybe triathletes or decathletes are more, but that's about it)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 8 2007, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Practically everything you have said is irrelevant, and again shifts off topic from "greatest athlete" which Jordan was not, and "greatest sports celebrity" which he has a good claim on. Claiming things like how many fans he had and how much money a league made are valid criteria is absolute nonsense. When someone says "best athlete" it means something. Look up the word.</div>We're discussing "greatest athlete" here genius. I already said he wasn't the "best" if you'd take the time to actually read the post. But since you want to be so condescending, I will look up the word and illustrate why you're wrong. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greatestIf you look under greatest, you'll see a number of definitions that support Jordan as the greatest athlete ever. For instance:6. Of outstanding significance or importance - How different would basketball and sports be in general without Michael Jordan? Comparably how much has running changed because of Michael Johnson? Obviously Jordan has made a bigger impact on his sport and the world in general. 9. Powerful; influential - Again, what athlete has been more influential than Michael Jordan?
