<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE @ Jan 4 2007, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>celticballa, once I'd like for you to admit that one of our players isn't good. You constantly make these 9 paragraph posts about our team like we're the f*cking 1996 Chicago Bulls. We're 11-20 in the ATLANTIC DIVISON. Telfair is not good. What games are you watching? He was put on the bench for a reason. What playmaking ability does he have? Running in the lane and throwing up lay ups? Got the offense going? What offense? He's shooting 39% and 26% beyond the arc. I guess he has toned down on the turnovers. He was supposed to be our "true point guard", Delonte put up way better numbers than him as a starter and he plays better defense and rebounds the ball, not to mention is a great shooter. Telfair is garbage, I would rather have Delonte playing the point any day than Telfair.</div>I do admit the flaws of this team and the flaws of our players, I'm a realist and I'm very fair when giving judgment. I talk about us like we are a good team? Since when?Also, read my posts. I have repeatedly stated that Telfair has not been playing well. I stated that he played pretty well in October and November, and that he was not good in December due to lack of aggression and poor defense. Just because I defend him for being a playmaker and for being under more control than he was last year, doesn't mean I think he is Gary Payton 2.0. It is possible to admit a player is struggling, while also pointing out some strengths.What playmaking ability does he have? I'm glad you asked:- He has good court vision, and he's always aware of where people are.- He has a nice drive and kick game, something we saw him do well in October-November, when both Pierce and Wally were healthy and shooting well.- He is solid with feeding big men in the the pick and roll, although we don't run it that often.- He makes the right plays in transition (ala 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 breaks).You want to throw percentages at me? I'll gladly throw them back: Like I have been saying, in October and November, Sebastian was playing well, taking it to the basket, running the offense, and shooting pretty well. He shot 48% from the floor, 36% from 3, and 87% from the free throw line in November. AGAIN, I have repeatedly admitted that Bassy had a bad month of December, but a good month of November (and October, preseason).Delonte is a "great" shooter? You throw Sebastian's bad season percentage at me and bag on him... Delonte is shooting 37% from the floor this year (worse than Bassy).<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Jan 4 2007, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>His toughness level on defense? Do you just make this stuff up? From what I get he's gotten stronger...okay...not that big of a deal...and his 'toughness' level is up... Those are all things a rookie PG can improve on in his first year. Were talking about a third year player.</div>Did I make that up? Um... NO. Toughness on defense IMPROVING (not Jason Kidd-like, but getting there, is what I have been saying): In Portland, he got lost every time there was a switch and he got knocked to the ground like a 4 year old running into Shaq's leg every time a pick was set on him. This year, he is pushing his way off screens and fighting through them much better than he ever has. Therefore, he has increased his toughness level (and strength) on the defensive end.How is that "making things up?"Yes, a third year player. A third year player that came out of a high school, is small, and a PG that was put in a slowed down structured offense in his first 2 years in the NBA (which obviously does not fit his run and gun style).
CelticBalla you know the only reason Delonte shooting percentages are bad is because he was put at the 2 at the beginning of the year and he clearly had trouble being undersized, shooting over bigger players. That's just acting ignorant, which you clearly aren't, you know Delonte is a great shooter. He admitted his troubles playing the 2 publically. He's been shooting better recently and his shooting numbers have been increasing. I still don't get this whole Telfair thing, it's one thing to say he's good at 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's, but which guard isn't? Delonte is good at that too, so is Tony Allen, Gerald Green, Paul Pierce, aka everyone of our other guards. What great court vision does Telfair have? I don't get that at all. It's tough to understand you're argument man, Telfair was just put on the bench because of his inability to play defense and be a solid starting point guard. Delonte is superior to Telfair and Rondo probably will be superior to Telfair, they put up the same friggen numbers in the summer leagues. I don't get why Telfair is getting more playing time than Rondo. The only reason for the drop of Delonte's numbers is because he was playing off the bench for the first two months of the season and he was playing the 2. Delonte had a decent year last year at the point guard position and I think Danny is a morron for bringing in a high schooler who was A THIRD STRING point guard on the PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS and tried to make him our starting point guard. CelticBalla you know Delonte is a better player than Telfair, why won't you admit that? You're telling me you want to take a kid out of high school and two years under his belt playing for a sh*tty Portland Trail Blazers team over a experienced player like Delonte who played along side Jameer Nelson in college. Delonte is better in every aspect of basketball than Telfair. This kid is a bust. In fact, it's an absolute joke to think that Doc/Ainge would put Telfair ahead of Delonte. True point guard? True point guard my ass. He barley averages four assists a game and has yet to shoot over 40% for his career. I don't get the hype surronding this kid. He's quick, doesn't play defense, is tremendously undersized, doesn't get a lot of assists, he's not a true anything. Also by the way, if we were to read all of your posts in depth, I'd be at my computer 24 hours a day.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE @ Jan 4 2007, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>CelticBalla you know the only reason Delonte shooting percentages are bad is because he was put at the 2 at the beginning of the year and he clearly had trouble being undersized, shooting over bigger players. That's just acting ignorant, which you clearly aren't, you know Delonte is a great shooter. He admitted his troubles playing the 2 publically. He's been shooting better recently and his shooting numbers have been increasing. I still don't get this whole Telfair thing, it's one thing to say he's good at 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's, but which guard isn't? Delonte is good at that too, so is Tony Allen, Gerald Green, Paul Pierce, aka everyone of our other guards. What great court vision does Telfair have? I don't get that at all. It's tough to understand you're argument man, Telfair was just put on the bench because of his inability to play defense and be a solid starting point guard. Delonte is superior to Telfair and Rondo probably will be superior to Telfair, they put up the same friggen numbers in the summer leagues. I don't get why Telfair is getting more playing time than Rondo. The only reason for the drop of Delonte's numbers is because he was playing off the bench for the first two months of the season and he was playing the 2. Delonte had a decent year last year at the point guard position and I think Danny is a morron for bringing in a high schooler who was A THIRD STRING point guard on the PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS and tried to make him our starting point guard. CelticBalla you know Delonte is a better player than Telfair, why won't you admit that? You're telling me you want to take a kid out of high school and two years under his belt playing for a sh*tty Portland Trail Blazers team over a experienced player like Delonte who played along side Jameer Nelson in college. Delonte is better in every aspect of basketball than Telfair. This kid is a bust. In fact, it's an absolute joke to think that Doc/Ainge would put Telfair ahead of Delonte. True point guard? True point guard my ass. He barley averages four assists a game and has yet to shoot over 40% for his career. I don't get the hype surronding this kid. He's quick, doesn't play defense, is tremendously undersized, doesn't get a lot of assists, he's not a true anything. Also by the way, if we were to read all of your posts in depth, I'd be at my computer 24 hours a day.</div> Great post WTTJ, great to this debate go on...
He didn't get a lot of minutes in Portland. So, now in Boston, hopefully he will play more...therefore I do NOT believe he is a bust...or at least yet.Give him like 2 years, then have this conversation.
WTF MardyC26? He averaged almost the exact same amount of minutes in Portland last year as he is now in Boston. He put up the same crappy numbers and they traded him because they realized he wasn't worth it. They drafted him to be a franchise player and realized he was nowhere close to that. Also what does that tell you about a kid like Telfair who was drafted to be a franchise player. They keep him for 2 seasons and dump him? What other organization would do that when they draft a young kid to be a franchise guy. Clearly they knew he wasn't that good. And if there was a reason for him not get a lot of minutes in Portland (Which he did anyway) it would be because HE ISNT THAT GOOD
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE @ Jan 4 2007, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>CelticBalla you know the only reason Delonte shooting percentages are bad is because he was put at the 2 at the beginning of the year and he clearly had trouble being undersized, shooting over bigger players. That's just acting ignorant, which you clearly aren't, you know Delonte is a great shooter. He admitted his troubles playing the 2 publically. He's been shooting better recently and his shooting numbers have been increasing. I still don't get this whole Telfair thing, it's one thing to say he's good at 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's, but which guard isn't? Delonte is good at that too, so is Tony Allen, Gerald Green, Paul Pierce, aka everyone of our other guards. What great court vision does Telfair have? I don't get that at all. It's tough to understand you're argument man, Telfair was just put on the bench because of his inability to play defense and be a solid starting point guard. Delonte is superior to Telfair and Rondo probably will be superior to Telfair, they put up the same friggen numbers in the summer leagues. I don't get why Telfair is getting more playing time than Rondo. The only reason for the drop of Delonte's numbers is because he was playing off the bench for the first two months of the season and he was playing the 2. Delonte had a decent year last year at the point guard position and I think Danny is a morron for bringing in a high schooler who was A THIRD STRING point guard on the PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS and tried to make him our starting point guard. CelticBalla you know Delonte is a better player than Telfair, why won't you admit that? You're telling me you want to take a kid out of high school and two years under his belt playing for a sh*tty Portland Trail Blazers team over a experienced player like Delonte who played along side Jameer Nelson in college. Delonte is better in every aspect of basketball than Telfair. This kid is a bust. In fact, it's an absolute joke to think that Doc/Ainge would put Telfair ahead of Delonte. True point guard? True point guard my ass. He barley averages four assists a game and has yet to shoot over 40% for his career. I don't get the hype surronding this kid. He's quick, doesn't play defense, is tremendously undersized, doesn't get a lot of assists, he's not a true anything. Also by the way, if we were to read all of your posts in depth, I'd be at my computer 24 hours a day.</div>I agree 100% that Delonte struggled in the beginning of the year due to playing the 2. I would never go against that. But Sebastian is just the opposite... he did well in the beginning, but is struggling now. Just because Delonte is finally getting it going now, doesn't mean you can give him a "free pass." He has still been inconsistent, and he's been reverted back to the 1 for almost a month now. I love Delonte though, and at this point, he is definitely playing better. No question there, I never questioned that.Tony Allen is good in 2 on 1 and 3 on 1 situations? Haha. How many times has he screwed up a fast break by not passing the ball and either turning the ball over from a bad dribble, missing the layup, or charging? I love TA, and he has been outstanding as of late, but you can't argue this. And Gerald Green isn't that great in transition with another defender in front of him either, because he needs to work on his ballhandling a ton. He has turned the ball over a few times on the break.Don't even bring up the summer league stats. Give me a break. Summer league is summer league. Brandon Hunter averaged a double-double for us in Summer League. I NEVER SAID IN ANY THREAD THAT TELFAIR WAS BETTER THAN WEST. Why did you say that I did? Delonte is better than Telfair, I never said otherwise.Assists... he doesn't get high assists! Damn him! Another case of f*cking overrating stats. He gets 4 assists per game on a team full of players just as young as him, with all the veterans out or playing hurt. So he doesn't rack up assists... are you saying Delonte does? I love Delonte, and once again I agree he is better than Telfair, but Delonte isn't exactly Steve Nash either.
The only reason I brought Delonte into this argument was to prove that Telfair is not a good basketball player. BCB said it best when he said he has pretty much been struggling his whole career. He has shown no improvements. And enough of this stupid basketball name-game crap, toughness levels....that's what people say about Brian Scalabrine. He's good at 2 on 1's? If he's running the break on an advantage he should be good at 2 on 1's and so should any normal basketball player. For everytime Tony Allen has made a charge or lost the ball on the fastbreak he's made up for it with a nice dunk or finish or pass. You make it sound like everytime he's on the break he fucks up, which isn't true. I mean c'mon CelticBalla, he's good at feeding big men off a pick and roll? We barley run that play and anyone can feed the ball to a big man. West or Rondo could do that just as good as Telfair could. By the way on a side note, West is averaging 3.2 assits per game while playing the two for the first few months of this season. Also you said earlier Telfair has put on a good amount of muscle....so what? So he's working out, he should be putting on muscle. And by the way he got absolutely bi*ch slapped on a block last night by Larry Hughes. He still looks like a high schooler out there, so his size hasn't improved his game that much. I'm not saying Delonte racks up assists either it's just you said he was great at feeding big man and driving and dishing. If that was so, I would assume his assits numbers would accumulate into something better than 3 or 4 a game. I'm sorry, once again, it's tough to understand your argument when clearly he is though of negatively in this organziation after being demoted to the bench. He should be a third stringer just like he was in Portland. It made no sense for him to start in the first place, Doc and Ainge completely disrespected West by bringing in Telfair, who couldn't even start in Portland and made him a starter here in Boston. Absolute joke.
[quote name='WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE' post='247326' date='Jan 4 2007, 04:10 PM']The only reason I brought Delonte into this argument was to prove that Telfair is not a good basketball player. BCB said it best when he said he has pretty much been struggling his whole career. He has shown no improvements.[/quote]But the thing that bugged me is that you said that I said Bassy was better than Delonte, when in fact I NEVER said anything like that. - I don't know what you were getting at with bringing up Scal. He is tough. Does he have close to zero basketball skill? YUP. But he does have a high IQ and he does play tough. People say that about Scal, and they are correct.- I never said TA messes up EVERY time on the break, but it does happen quite often. And making up for it on a separate play is a whole different subject.- "Anyone can feed the ball to a big man." - WRONG. You have to make the right pass, at the right time, and in the right place. Not everyone can do that, not at all.- Delonte averaged 4 or 5 assists last year, he is solid and a smart player. I know that. But once again, you bashed Bassy's numbers, I pointed out that Delonte has a lower number in that category (just like I pointed out with the shooting percentage). Shooting guard or not, no offense to Delonte, but that % is inexcusable. And it's not like every shot he took was over a 6'7'' athlete, he failed to knock down plenty of open jumpers as well. Not every player in the league puts on muscle. In fact, a lot of players in this league are quite lazy in that area. I know you don't like Bassy, but don't push that work aside because you think it should be done. It should, yes, but not all do it. Every player in the NBA gets punked once or twice in their careers. Give me a break. If you want to make fun of how Bassy got stuffed, I'll show you highlights of Delonte getting dunked on 10 times. (That isn't calling out Delonte, just a good example, especially considering we have been talking about Delonte). THAT MUCH. But you admit it has improved.. right? That's all I was saying in the first place. He is a playmaker, and he has fed the ball to people. They don't always knock down the shot, or maybe it's not a noticeably flashy pass for you to even realize it was a good one, but he has been getting the ball where it needs to go. Also note that the guys he has for kickouts have been injured and out of the lineup. Pierce is out, Wally was out and he is playing injured (and shooting very poorly lately), and Gerald is just starting to really get into the rotation.Also, I wouldn't go as far as saying he is "thought of negatively" throughout the organization. He had a tough month of December, and a disappointing month. If he can play like he did last night for the rest of the season, I'll be very happy. 100% agreed. That was a major slap in the face. Delonte had a great season last year, then they go out and get not one, but TWO point guards this summer... try and play with his position on the floor... then start the new kid over him right away. Agreed, a MAJOR slap in the face to Delonte, and that is another reason why I think his confidence was shot down to begin the season.
So what do you think of Telfair then? Now you're just breaking down whatever I'm saying and nit picking at every little statement. What do you think of Telfair? Do you think he's the point guard of the future? Do you think he's going to be an all-star calibar player? Do you think he's the best point guard in this league? You're backing up this kid like he's the next f*cking great point guard. Take a stance on something dude, my stance is TELFAIR SUCKS. I mean you're giving the kid props for putting on muscle, great job Sebastian, welcome to professional sports...the thing that pisses me off with this kid is he's got this movie made on him, he's got some shoe deal or whatever...for what? 8 points a game and getting benched? I started an argument against what you were saying and every response has just been a rebuttle breaking down all of my statements. You haven't once taken a stand on anything, I compared him to Delonte and Rondo and how he should be playing behind them and you're saying you never said he was as good as Delone or Rondo or whatever....take a stance, I want to hear what you think of Telfair.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE @ Jan 4 2007, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So what do you think of Telfair then? Now you're just breaking down whatever I'm saying and nit picking at every little statement. What do you think of Telfair? Do you think he's the point guard of the future? Do you think he's going to be an all-star calibar player? Do you think he's the best point guard in this league? You're backing up this kid like he's the next f*cking great point guard. Take a stance on something dude, my stance is TELFAIR SUCKS. I mean you're giving the kid props for putting on muscle, great job Sebastian, welcome to professional sports...the thing that pisses me off with this kid is he's got this movie made on him, he's got some shoe deal or whatever...for what? 8 points a game and getting benched? I started an argument against what you were saying and every response has just been a rebuttle breaking down all of my statements. You haven't once taken a stand on anything, I compared him to Delonte and Rondo and how he should be playing behind them and you're saying you never said he was as good as Delone or Rondo or whatever....take a stance, I want to hear what you think of Telfair.</div>I was defending the points you made in which I didn't agree with. It's not like I was working my way around anything.Do I think he's our PG of the future? Not sure, but I definitely say Rondo has more potential. Of the three we have right now, I'd put my money on Rajon Rondo. Do I think Telfair will ever be an All-Star? Absolutely not. Do I think he "sucks" as much as you do? No. But you HAVE TO GIVE HIM MORE TIME. The kid is 21 years old, out of high school, and in a new system. Nobody can make a fair judgment on whether he's a bust or not for a couple more years. Everyone has their own opinions on every player, sure, but you can't break anything down for a couple more years on whether he's a bust or not. He isn't fully developed and he is not at his peak.I don't think he'll be a flat out, Michael Olowokandi type bust, and I don't think he'll be a star either. I think the expectation bar was set way too high coming out of high school, much like every NYC point guard. I think he's going to be a solid player in the future. Not a star, not a bust. A solid player that brings energy to his team and runs the offense at a reasonable level.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>[I don't think he'll be a flat out, Michael Olowokandi type bust, and I don't think he'll be a star either. I think the expectation bar was set way too high coming out of high school, much like every NYC point guard. I think he's going to be a solid player in the future. Not a star, not a bust. A solid player that brings energy to his team and runs the offense at a reasonable level.</div>I respect that opinion, thank you for stating that. I don't really agree with it but I do respect your opinon.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WELCOMEtotheJUNGLE @ Jan 5 2007, 02:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I respect that opinion, thank you for stating that. I don't really agree with it but I do respect your opinon.</div>And I respect yours. I mean, I can see where you are coming from, in a sense. Based on his expectations coming out of high school, he could be considered a disappointment because he will never live up to that hype. But... I don't base my judgments on other scouts' unreasonable expectations. I set my own bar for those guys when they come into the league. I never expected Telfair to be an All-Star, but I do believe he will be a very solid player that gets the job done and brings a ton of energy.
