One of the reasons I tend to be so impressed by Nash is that he's so versatile when he's running the Suns' offense. He can be the primary scorer. He can penetrate and collapse the defense. He can push the ball up and lead the fast break. And he can settle down in a halfcourt offense and find the open man in a set play. Very few PG's can do that.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Stock can't light it up like Nash.</div> It's arguable; Stockton shot 50%+ from the field in 11 seasons. He didn't attempt too many 3's, especially early on in his career, but finished his career shooting 38% from downtown. Stockton could definitely be depended on to score if the team was struggling. He did average 15-17 points most of his career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">My PG = needs to be a playmaker, that's why I say Nash > Payton</div> Come to think of it Payton wasn't as good a playmaker, but he was definitely very good and at the end of the day a better player.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">One of the reasons I tend to be so impressed by Nash is that he's so versatile when he's running the Suns' offense. He can be the primary scorer. He can penetrate and collapse the defense. He can push the ball up and lead the fast break. And he can settle down in a halfcourt offense and find the open man in a set play. Very few PG's can do that.</div> Exactly....I've never seen a PG that does all of those things, except maybe Magic.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kidds lack of offensive skill has always made me shy away from him</div> Being able to continually average 9 APG throughout his ENTIRE career is an offensive skill.
When your best player is a PG, there are certain times where you want him to just look to score and keep the defense honest. Kidd certainly isn't lacking in that department, but he isn't at Nash's level.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">One of the reasons I tend to be so impressed by Nash is that he's so versatile when he's running the Suns' offense. He can be the primary scorer. He can penetrate and collapse the defense. He can push the ball up and lead the fast break. And he can settle down in a halfcourt offense and find the open man in a set play. Very few PG's can do that.</div> <div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Being able to continually average 9 APG throughout his ENTIRE career is an offensive skill.</div> I meant scoring wise.
<div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well the thread title is: "Is there anyone who has played the position any better?" And I gave many better PG's. You don't necessarily have to follow their careers in order to know they are better. As a student of the game, I realized what they did throughout their careers and all of them have done more than Steve Nash.</div> Yea, I think you are right from that perspective (career-wise). At this point in time, I would guess that most or all of those players you listed have a better total career contributions than Nash (although it is still hard to compare over eras). However single year performances, I think Nash has to be somewhere up there.
MrJ if Nash were to retire, have a career ending injury, die, you would be looking at Nash from a totally different perspective. You guys always seem to look at the past through rosy glasses, you always look at the good. Why do you act like Cousy was sooo good? You know he wouldn't hang with today's athletes and be able to keep up with them. So if Nash's career ended 10 seasons ago you'd probably be all over him. I remember watching Stockton and people were giving him heat for not being able to hit his jumper, and missing 2 straight 3's to win the game. As soon as he retired people were all over his balls.
I don't know, I find it extremely strange that people are STILL knocking on Steve Nash's talent level after 2 MVP seasons, and a 3rd season where he's playing even better than how he played during his MVP seasons. Sure, you may argue that last year Kobe or the year before that Shaq could have won the MVP, but the point is that he was always at the forefront for the award, and he's the leader of the pack right now as well (along with Dirk). Why do you people often discredit him? Because he's only been the MVP in Phoenix? Have you guys watched the Suns play? Have you even see the way Steve Nash plays? I don't get to watch the Suns that often, but when I do watch thier games, it's ridiculous how effectively they run what they intend to do, and you have to realize that it is Steve Nash who is the heart and soul of that team. I've seen Stockton play, and I won't say Nash is on his level, but I seriously haven't seen anyone run the game as well as this since I guess Magic, even though I wasn't really alive when he was in his prime ('89 boy!). Everytime I watch the Suns, I'm mesmorized by the way he runs the position. I don't get people. First they say the first year was a fluke, then they say he doesn't deserve the MVP cause Shaq deserved it for "changing Miami around" (which is a bunch of bulls**t because Wade was and always will be much more valueable to Miami then Shaq ever was), then he doesn't deserve his second MVP because another player averaged 35 a game and led a mediocre team to the playoffs (although last year's MVP race coulda gone either way); then he can't play a lick of defense (also true, but who gives a **** seriously, the Suns are winning) and now that he's winning and it's been realized that Phoenix's defense isn't that bad, the arguement of "oh....well he can't win 3 straight because...players like Shaq and Barkley didn't win three straight!" Gimme a break. People need to decide what's more important, winning or saying Nash isn't deserving of MVP's because he can't play defense. His defense is not why Pheonix is winning, it is his offense and it is his playmaking. As long as Phoenix is winning, you can't really knock him. Yeah, he has talent around him, but didn't Stockton? Didn't Isiah? Why is that even an arguement? People act as if Dirk is surrounded by Tyrone Lue and Milt Palacio. True, Nash doesn't have the longetivity that the other great point guards have had, but you're only kidding yourself if you think he hasn't been the best point guard in the league BAR NONE (yes, Nets fans) since he joined with Pheonix. As far as Nash and his MVP chances go for a three-peat, in the words of David Alridge: "I don’t care how many times he won MVP, that motherf*&$er is in the discussion!!” Dudes, the MVP is about the most valueable player NOW, for the current season. **** what happened in the past; if someone is playing at a dominant level, REWARD THEM. Don't rob them of something they deserve because you're afraid of tainting the past. I'm not saying that Dirk or Kobe don't deserve to win it either, but I think it's really unfair for Nash to be written off because of 2 MVP awards. Is it his fault he's important to his team? Sorry for the rant.
<div class="quote_poster">AirJordan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">MrJ if Nash were to retire, have a career ending injury, die, you would be looking at Nash from a totally different perspective. You guys always seem to look at the past through rosy glasses, you always look at the good. Why do you act like Cousy was sooo good? You know he wouldn't hang with today's athletes and be able to keep up with them. So if Nash's career ended 10 seasons ago you'd probably be all over him. I remember watching Stockton and people were giving him heat for not being able to hit his jumper, and missing 2 straight 3's to win the game. As soon as he retired people were all over his balls.</div> Thank You. 10 years from now, people will be all over this Pheonix team's balls. When the next high scoring team comes along, they'll be compared "to those Pheonix teams of the mid-00's that would outscore you all game long", etc, etc, etc. History is tainted overtime as perceptions change. Which is why I also believe that Kobe's ending legacy will positively overshadow the negativity that has shadowed his career for the most part. Right now, people remember the trial, the Shaq episode, etc etc, but in the end, all that becomes a footnote. Same goes for Nash; right now everyone knocks his game, saying he's not better then this person and this person, but if he leads the Suns to a championship, is he any less of a legend then those other point guards? Does it make him greater thqn Stockton because he achieved a feat Stockton never could?
If you're talking pure playmaking skills, Nash's past three seasons are probably up there with the best ever, but he is certainly not the best all-around point guard to have played the game.
I don't think I've ever seen a PG run an offense as well as Nash is currently running the Phoenix Suns.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think I've ever seen a PG run an offense as well as Nash is currently running the Phoenix Suns.</div> Have you watched John Stockton and Magic Johnson?
Magic Johnson was the best playmaker of all time at the position. Let's also keep in mind the rule changes that have been made to benefit today's perimeter players. Steve Nash is great, but I wouldn't put him in the same category as Magic or Stockton. Until Steve Nash can lead his team into the NBA Finals he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with those two. We have to witness how Nash performs at the ultimate stage before you can compare him to players who have reached that pinnacle.
<div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Have you watched John Stockton and Magic Johnson?</div> In terms of running/controlling an offense, I think Nash is in their class.
If I had seen both Stockton and Magic play in their primes, I would compare Nash with them. I don't know how he is in terms of running an offense (better or worse) compared to them. To me you can still compare a guy's skill level who hasn't achieved the same level of playoff success as another guy. like KG (never made finals) comparing to Dirk (made finals, but no ring yet) or to TD (3 rings)
I don't know about running an offense, but Nash is: The best decision maker I've ever seen play. He always knows which guy to get going so everyone gets involved and when to take a shot himself. I bet if you stopped him on the court, he could tell you what the last five plays his team ran were. He is also the most creative passer I have ever seen - better than Magic or Kidd in this department. He sees angles that others don't. Also defense is an important thing for a TEAM to posess but overrated when it comes to individual players. When you're the best defender in the league like Bruce Bowen and Kobe TMac or Marion can still drop 30 or 40 on you, how is that such a great thing? How many rings does he have?? None, but neither do Kidd or Stockton
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I saw stockton play plenty and I've never seen him at the level that Nash is at right now....Stockton wasn't as good offensively....</div> dude, Mr. Stockton almost averages 15apg in a season while he is one of the league top 3 in steal. Nash is great but I hate the fact that Nash's homers act like he takes a bunch of cherokee kids to the park and beat the high flying stars. IMO, Magic, Stockton, Oscar is on another level while Nash, Payton, Kidd, Cousy, Thomas are 1 or 1/2 notch below them.
Man I've watched Stockton play and hes waaaaaaaay overrated. Magic Johnson is the real deal though, dude can play and was unstoppable
Nash's offensive game is just flawless. He always makes the right decision, always knows when to shoot and knows when to pass, always passes to the right man using the right pass and the right angle. He can shoot, penetrate, shoot FTs, or create for others as good as anyone in the league. He is as good as they come in running offense in the open court, half court, pick and roll, and he is very clutch. I don't know how he stacks up against the all time great PGs since I haven't seen a whole lot of the NBA before the late 90's but I don't think there has been a PG who does everything offensively as great as Nash does nor run an offense as perfectly as Nash does.
