Is Whiteside better than a healthy Nurk?

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by SharpesTriumph, Oct 25, 2019.

?

Whitesode.better than Nurk?

  1. Yes

    16 vote(s)
    18.8%
  2. No

    69 vote(s)
    81.2%
  1. Rastapopoulos

    Rastapopoulos Well-Known Member

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    Nurk makes the team better on offense and defense. Whiteside barely knows how to function as part of a team. So no.
     
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  2. e_blazer

    e_blazer Rip City Fan

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    Agree, but a Nurk/Whiteside center rotation would be awesome.
     
  3. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Dude is a beast no question. Glad the Blazers have him right now. 23 rebounds! Wow!
     
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  4. Blazers1977

    Blazers1977 Well-Known Member

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    Changing my vote to yes.

    I think people are only remembering Nurk at his very best. He was never a very consistent player. Both are still borderline all stars.
     
  5. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure there is something to that, but IMO I think Nurk is a better overall player. What whiteside does better is block shots, and finish strong.
    I'd say defensive rebounding wise they're fairly equal (whiteside may have a small advantage). I think Nurk is a better passer and decision-maker with the ball, Nurk's better on the offensive boards (it's just harder to box him out), Nurk's got more of a post game in my opinion too.

    All that said whiteside has been very good this year, I wouldn't really say the struggles are on him. He's got some holes in his game, but he does basically everything their asking him to do at a reasonable level.
     
  6. Blazers1977

    Blazers1977 Well-Known Member

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    I think Nurks passing was kind of overrated. He looked to pass often, but his passes were often inaccurate and he turned it over a lot throwing risky passes.

    also I’d give the clear rebound advantage to whiteside. Nurk has never come close to whitesides numbers for any sustained period.

    the only thing I’d say Nurk is better at is playing pick and roll and getting his own buckets. And passing, but not by much.
     
  7. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Nurkic turned it over a little more often than Whiteside does (like, half a turnover per game), but he gets like 2.5 times more assists. It's a pretty significant difference.

    And Nurkic's overall defensive impact (ie, operating effectively within a scheme) is light years better than Whiteside. That is, IMO, the biggest difference between the two.
     
  8. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    You can tell me I can't read stats if that will make this discussion easier, heh.
    Whiteside probably is a better rebounder, I won't give you to much of an argument there.
    Something I find interesting is OPBM/DPBM/BPM.
    OBPM has them both basically identical -1.7 and -1.6. DBPM favors Nurk (both are good defenders) 2.9 vs 2.3.

    Nurkic's usage is a tad higher, but his assist rate is 13.2% Whiteside is 4.2% Thir turnover % Nurkic does turn it over more at 15.7 but whiteside is at 12.3%.

    I know all stats need a grain of salt added to them. They aren't perfect. One other thing I'd say is This is Prime Hassan, this is probably as good as it gets. Nurks prime is still 2-3 years away (hopefully he is able to stay healthy).
     
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  9. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    I think the moral of the story is we have two really good bigs!
     
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  10. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    I think the team is better when Nurkic plays, so that’s all that matters
     
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  11. Sarni

    Sarni Well-Known Member

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    Both are excellent rebounders. Nurkic is a better playmaker, better defender. Whiteside is a more consistent finisher at the rim and a better shot blocker by a margin. Overall Nurkic is a better player but I wouldn’t mind keeping Whiteside beyond this season.
     
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  12. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    They are pretty different that is for sure. Nurk plays more physical and defends certain players better and before he got hurt the offense was flowing well with him out there. But because Whiteside is so long he defends without picking up fouls. And when he gets the ball down low, whether from a pass or rebound, he is dunking it. He seldom fumbles the ball down low. Both seem to be about the same from mid range.

    Whiteside is 5 years older but they both can easily play another 5 years. Nurk obviously is the fan favorite because of his personality. Sure would like to keep both if Whiteside would take a pay cut. But my guess is that will be an issue.
     
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  13. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    about the rebounding, career numbers:

    off reb rate: Nurkic 11.9%....Whiteside 14.1%
    def reb rate: Nurkic 26.0%....Whiteside 34.5%
    total reb rate: Nurkic 19.0%....Whiteside 24.3%

    some other career numbers:

    PER: Nurkic 19.1....Whiteside 24.2
    TS%: Nurkic .529....Whiteside .594
    FT Rate: Nurkic .368....Whiteside .379
    block rate: Nurkic 4.5%....Whiteside 7.3%
    def BPM: Nurkic 2.9%....Whiteside 2.3%

    assist rate: Nurkic 13.2%....Whiteside 4.1% (Nurkic 17.9% last season; Hassan 7.1% this season)
    turnover rate: Nurkic 15.7%....Whiteside 12.3% (you'd expect to see higher turnovers with more passing)

    statistically, Whiteside has a big edge across the board until it comes to defense and passing. Now defensively, Whiteside is a better rim protector (he's obviously taller and longer) but I'm not sure that translates to overall better interior defense. Obviously defensive rebounding is a component of defense, so Whiteside has that going for him. But my thinking is that Nurkic is probably a better instinctive defender. I also think you need to weigh those DBPM numbers by the fact Nurkic played with much better defenders last season, on a better defensive team

    I've been thinking that Nurkic's big advantage over Whiteside was how he fits with Dame and the Stotts offense, especially in the pick and roll. The Dame/Nurk two-man game was a thing of beauty last season, most of the time. But I was pretty surprised by the PnR/roll-man stats from NBA.com for Nurkic last season vs Hassan this season:

    frequency: Nurkic 24.6%....Whiteside 31.4%
    points/possession: Nurkic 1.13....Whiteside 1.17
    eFG%: Nurkic 55.2%....Whiteside 61.5%
    FT Frequency: Nurkic 18.9%....Whiteside 12.7%
    turnover frequency: Nurkic 5.9%....Whiteside 8.2%
    percentile: Nurkic 60.6%....Whiteside 60.9%

    yeah, I would have bet that Nurkic would have a significant edge in these numbers; but he doesn't

    I tend to think Nurkic is a better player, although I wouldn't give him as big an edge as many do, and obviously, the stats tell a story that conflicts with a Nurkic bias. Maybe Nurkic is getting too much credit, in minds, for being on a good team last year while Whiteside is getting too much blame for the current team. The Nurkic nostalgia might be too strong, and Whiteside's biggest issue is he isn't Nurkic. Nurkic had a lot more help inside last season than Whiteside had this season.

    Nurkic's biggest edge is that he's more than 5 years younger than Whiteside, and has a lot of margin for improvement. Whiteside's upside is probably capped
     
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  14. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    sorry, that's not all that matters, IMO.....we haven't seen Nurkic play with Tolliver & Hezonja as PF's. We saw him play with Aminu & Zach as the PF rotation, and Harkless and Hood as the SF rotation; with Curry stretching the floor instead of Simons and his inconsistent iso. With Turner running the 2nd unit instead of Bazemore or Hezonja. Of course the Blazers were playing better with Nurkic...they were a much better team last season and a lot of that was due to much better roster construction and years of continuity.

    Whiteside doesn't have any of those advantages
     
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  15. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    Ok. I feel like Whiteside is a little of a stat stuffing guy who doesn’t necessarily have a positive impact on the team. I don’t think he plays hard all the time. That’s just my opinion. I think Lillard plays well with Nurkic.
     
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  16. GDiama

    GDiama Well-Known Member

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    I don't see our reb% with Whiteside off the floor dropping as much as it did with Nurk off the floor. Hassan is a great individual rebounder but just stealing them from your teammates doesn't mean much to the team's rebounding numbers. It just boosts your own.
     
  17. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Well-Known Member

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    Nice breakdown.....
    The one thing I think Nurk is better at is guarding the paint overall. He may not block as many shots but that in itself isnt a true indicator of superb defense.
    I know that Whiteside will often go for a block and leave the weak side open or the paint unprotected. Nurk just seemed to be more aware of the defending an area.
     
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  18. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    No question I want them both!
    Cake and eat it too!
     
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  19. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    Nurk has much better defensive instincts and is always in a better position when defending shots. That is the biggest difference between the two. The way Nurk plays the drop pick and roll scheme is completely different than Hassan or any other big that has played with us. Nurk plays the gap between the ball handler and roller perfectly and is usually able to recover on plays when a pass is made to the roller. If the guard attacks, Nurk is always in position to defend the shot.
     
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  20. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Most of the first half of this post (as you noted) was career numbers. Wouldn't Portland numbers provide a more relevant comparison?
     

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