Isiah Wild Over Wally

Discussion in 'New York Knicks' started by Shapecity, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">The Nets top 2 players are better than the Knicks best player. They have a promising big man in Nenad Krstic. They worked hard to get into the playoffs without one of their star players. It's only going to be that much harder for the Knicks next year when they're healthy.</div>
    I just have a brief disagreement with you here. How will it be hard for us next year when we're healthy? With Houston, along with our lottery pick (let's say he's decent) and Sweetney and Ariza only getting better, we are in the same realm as New Jersey. Also with guys like Malik Rose and Taylor coming off the bench making instant contributions, I think we can go far. That thing in January pretty much got us off track because before that, the Knicks were playing decent basketball. A healthy Knicks roster is a playoff team.
     
  2. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">When did NY get Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/Baron Davis/Gilbert Arenas?</div>
    Marbury is on the level of the PG's you mentioned, Run BMJ.
     
  3. P.A.P.

    P.A.P. JBB Fresh Start

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I just have a brief disagreement with you here. How will it be hard for us next year when we're healthy? With Houston, along with our lottery pick (let's say he's decent) and Sweetney and Ariza only getting better, we are in the same realm as New Jersey. Also with guys like Malik Rose and Taylor coming off the bench making instant contributions, I think we can go far. That thing in January pretty much got us off track because before that, the Knicks were playing decent basketball. A healthy Knicks roster is a playoff team.</div>

    You can say that a healthy Knicks team is a playoff team, but a non-healthy undersize roster Nets squad is a playoff team as well. Like the Knicks, the Nets will attempt to get better over the offseason. They have a GM who's a very good drafter, with a pick in the teens in the draft, the Nets should be able to get depth at the PF/C spot. Adding RJ back and having Vince and Kidd from the start of the season will give the Nets a squad ready to contend for the 4th-5th seed. My intent wasn't to make it sound like the Knicks weren't going to be a playoff team. The point I'm trying to make is that, the Nets are already a playoff team without RJ, and by all the additions that I listed above, it will be harder for the Knicks to make the playoffs( with the Nets being in the same division as them) let alone make the ECF.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury is on the level of the PG's you mentioned, Run BMJ.</div>

    Not at Kidd's level, not at Nash's MVP level, not at Arenas level displayed this season, not at Baron's level that he showed he could play at with GSW. You shouldn't be responding to these comments, you should be responding to your fellow Knick poster making the comments.
     
  4. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">You can say that a healthy Knicks team is a playoff team, but a non-healthy undersize roster Nets squad is a playoff team as well. Like the Knicks, the Nets will attempt to get better over the offseason. They have a GM who's a very good drafter, with a pick in the teens in the draft, the Nets should be able to get depth at the PF/C spot. Adding RJ back and having Vince and Kidd from the start of the season will give the Nets a squad ready to contend for the 4th-5th seed. My intent wasn't to make it sound like the Knicks weren't going to be a playoff team. The point I'm trying to make is that, the Nets are already a playoff team without RJ, and by all the additions that I listed above, it will be harder for the Knicks to make the playoffs( with the Nets being in the same division as them) let alone make the ECF</div>
    But they made it by the skin of their teeth by half of a game. Isiah Thomas is a good drafter too and the Knicks will attempt to get better in the offseason too. I understand how good the Nets are, but Houston is very important to us. Pehaps more than Jefferson is to the Nets than Carter. Hear me out on this one. When Houston was healthy, Marbury got to the paint effortlessly and scored easierly. It also got more space for everyone on the entire floor. Marbury has expressed his grattitude playing with Houston. When he was healthy, Marbury had a career high in assists per game in that little span last year. Also Houston is the clutchest Knick on the roster and all of those close games the Knicks lost by 6 points or less (30 to be exact. There have been closer games than the boxscore indicates as well.) he could have helped. I don't know about the Knicks getting into the ECF next year with their current roster, but I know that it is a plyaoff team and can possibly get into the second round.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not at Kidd's level, not at Nash's MVP level, not at Arenas level displayed this season, not at Baron's level that he showed he could play at with GSW. You shouldn't be responding to these comments, you should be responding to your fellow Knick poster making the comments.</div>
    There at the same level. That's what I'm trying to say. Those PG's were winning during that time so I think that's why people can't see the similarites. Let me just say, I don't agree with what #3 Marbury said. I don't think I've ever saiud stuff like that.
     
  5. Moo2K4

    Moo2K4 NBA West Producer

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting #3 Marbury:</div><div class="quote_post">[​IMG] I believe we traded for this amazing hybrid player (Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/Gilbert Arenas) in january 2004.

    [​IMG] I removed Baron Davis, because he is an injury prone crappy player.[​IMG]</div>

    I'm sorry, but do you know what you're talking about? Steve Nash was league MVP. He helped turn around a dismal situation in Phoenix and turned them into a title contender. And, oh my, you know was there before him? That's right, Stephon Marbury. The man who has never led his team out of the first round, and you claim him to be the best PG in the league. I'm sorry, but before you say that, win. He didn't. Nash did. To be exact, he led his team to 60 wins (won twice when he was hurt I believe).

    Next on that list is JKidd. Again, where was his team? That's right, the playoffs. Oh, and who did he replace in New Jersey? My lord, it was....drumroll please...Stephon Marbury. And once again, where did Marbury lead Jersey? NOWHERE. He never took em to the playoffs. Hell, I don't even think he hit 30 wins in Jersey. And what happens when Kidd comes in? They win 52 games and make the NBA Finals. So, I believe he is now knocked down to #3 on the list....for now.

    Next player mentioned is Arenas. He is, yet another point guard, who made the playoffs this year, and for that matter, is sitting in the second round (for his unfortunacy though, it's against Miami). Granted this is his first year in the playoffs, he's also been around a lot less time than Stephon. Arenas, in only his second year in Washington (first healthy one), helped them to the #5 seed in East and a 2nd round berth now, while Marbury didn't win. Beyond that, he put great numbers all around and was an MVP candidate in my opinion. Also, in his last season in Golden State, he helped them make a push to the playoffs, only to fall short and finish 40-42. So, now, to me, Marbury is at least at #4....and still...potentially lower.

    Now with Baron Davis. If I'm correct, the Warriors were dead before he came. Then, in the 28 games that he played in GS, they went 18-10. Compare that to New York's overall record for the year, it was only 15 less wins. So that tells me that Baron Davis, is indeed, better then Marbury. He's won in his career. He's led teams to the playoffs and actually escaped the first round. He single-handedly came in and turned around a left for dead Warriors team and got em to win 18 games in his 28 game tenure there. And you may be right, he is injury prone, but that means nothing. Just cause you get injured, doesn't mean it will continue. Take a look at Camby. Injury prone beyond any belief for a few years, and since then, he's had back to back seasons where he's appeared in over 66 games, including 72 (a career high), last season. You can get over the injury bug. It's possible. Another example is Vince Carter. After missing 61 games in two seasons, he's only missed 14 in these last two. Injury bugs can go away. That's not much of a worry right now if you're GS. They won with him, and that proves that he is an elite PG. Since Marbury came to NY, what have they done? A whole lot of nothing. In my opinion, Marbury isn't even close to the best point guard in the league. He's at best 5th behind Kidd, Nash, Davis, and Arenas. You overrate him beyond any belief. He's never won anything in his life, for that matter, every team he leaves becomes better once he's gone. That's not a good sign...unless you're planning on shipping him out. All in all though, Marbury is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the level of Nash or Kidd, and is still a ways behind Arenas and Davis.

    Also, I neglected this one, but I'd also put him behind Allen Iverson. Iverson was listed at the point guard this year mind you, and even though I find him overrated, he plays his heart and soul out every night and carried that team on his back to the playoffs. His supporting cast wasn't nearly as good as that of Marbury, however, he still got his team there. He willed his team in this year. Beyond that, he's a formere MVP and he's at least tasted what the NBA Finals were like. For that matter, he's tasted what a playoff series win is like as well. And, also, he's been an MVP. Three things Marbury hasn't done. So, that then will bump him down to #6 on my list, and probably won't go any lower then that. He's a career loser that puts up good stats, and quite frankly, wins are more important that numbers.
     
  6. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm sorry, but do you know what you're talking about? Steve Nash was league MVP. He helped turn around a dismal situation in Phoenix and turned them into a title contender. And, oh my, you know was there before him? That's right, Stephon Marbury. The man who has never led his team out of the first round, and you claim him to be the best PG in the league. I'm sorry, but before you say that, win. He didn't. Nash did. To be exact, he led his team to 60 wins (won twice when he was hurt I believe).</div>
    First of all, Nash was in PG heaven. When Marbury was around, he had Stoudemire as a rookie and Marion. That?s it. He also did manage to get them to game 6 against the NBA champion Spurs. Joe Johnson dramatically improved and they also got Quentin Richardson after Marbury left along with an ever improving Amare. You can?t put this all on Stephon.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Next on that list is JKidd. Again, where was his team? That's right, the playoffs. Oh, and who did he replace in New Jersey? My lord, it was....drumroll please...Stephon Marbury. And once again, where did Marbury lead Jersey? NOWHERE. He never took em to the playoffs. Hell, I don't even think he hit 30 wins in Jersey. And what happens when Kidd comes in? They win 52 games and make the NBA Finals. So, I believe he is now knocked down to #3 on the list....for now.</div>
    The Nets were in a constant rebuilding process when Marbury came in and the very next year in 2000-2001:
    Marbury missed 15 games
    Van Horn missed 33 games
    Kenyon Martin missed 14 games (still rehabbing from his knee injury)
    Kendal Gill missed 51 games

    And when this happened, it was the same year they got Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles was healthy all season, acquired Todd MacCulloch, got Jason Collins (a decent role player), and a healthier Kenyon Martin.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Next player mentioned is Arenas. He is, yet another point guard, who made the playoffs this year, and for that matter, is sitting in the second round (for his unfortunacy though, it's against Miami). Granted this is his first year in the playoffs, he's also been around a lot less time than Stephon. Arenas, in only his second year in Washington (first healthy one), helped them to the #5 seed in East and a 2nd round berth now, while Marbury didn't win. Beyond that, he put great numbers all around and was an MVP candidate in my opinion. Also, in his last season in Golden State, he helped them make a push to the playoffs, only to fall short and finish 40-42. So, now, to me, Marbury is at least at #4....and still...potentially lower.</div>
    It?s interesting how you mention the losses of Washington last season and yet, you still seem to forget Marbury?s misfortune in New Jersey. Also according to you, you can determine selfishness by some of the shots you take. Gilbert Arenas takes tons of bad shots and shoots on a less than stellar 43% from the field, and for every 5 assists he dishes out, he turns the ball over 3 times. Also what about him in the playoffs? Sure he averages 23 points, but he shoots the ball at 37% and 24% from behind the arc. He also takes about 20 shots per game! So he is a terrible PG in the playoffs who lead his team to the second round with the help of Chicago having two major injuries. Also, Golden State went 38-44 and were 7 games out of playoff contention.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now with Baron Davis. If I'm correct, the Warriors were dead before he came. Then, in the 28 games that he played in GS, they went 18-10. Compare that to New York's overall record for the year, it was only 15 less wins. So that tells me that Baron Davis, is indeed, better then Marbury. He's won in his career. He's led teams to the playoffs and actually escaped the first round. He single-handedly came in and turned around a left for dead Warriors team and got em to win 18 games in his 28 game tenure there. And you may be right, he is injury prone, but that means nothing. Just cause you get injured, doesn't mean it will continue. Take a look at Camby. Injury prone beyond any belief for a few years, and since then, he's had back to back seasons where he's appeared in over 66 games, including 72 (a career high), last season. You can get over the injury bug. It's possible. Another example is Vince Carter. After missing 61 games in two seasons, he's only missed 14 in these last two. Injury bugs can go away. That's not much of a worry right now if you're GS. They won with him, and that proves that he is an elite PG. Since Marbury came to NY, what have they done? A whole lot of nothing. In my opinion, Marbury isn't even close to the best point guard in the league. He's at best 5th behind Kidd, Nash, Davis, and Arenas. You overrate him beyond any belief. He's never won anything in his life, for that matter, every team he leaves becomes better once he's gone. That's not a good sign...unless you're planning on shipping him out. All in all though, Marbury is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the level of Nash or Kidd, and is still a ways behind Arenas and Davis.</div>
    How can we determine how great someone is in 28 games? I don?t understand that. When Marbury first came to NY, the Knicks were on a little hot streak too, but we saw how that turned out. I remember when he came over, A season is 82 games not just 28. You yourself told me not to judge Crawford?s sophomore season because he missed 23 games and anything could happen in those additional 59 games. Now we can judge Baron Davis? performance? How do you know the Warriors weren?t on a hot streak? Anything could happen in those additional 54 games or in the rest of that 65.8% of the season. Also player success doesn?t necessarily determine a player. Some are just put into bad situations. What about Kevin Garnett? He recently got out the first round and Elton Brand still never made the playoffs. David Robinson didn?t have much playoff success until the arrival of Tim Duncan. Is McGrady not in the upper echelon of swingmen in the league? He never made it passed the first round? Players are put into different situations and Marbury has been unlucky throughout his entire career. Is this his fault?

    Much of what you?re saying is based on some yearly progress and some even by 28 games! It?s interesting that Nash wasn?t doing this in Dallas, but he was doing it in Phoenix. It shows the type of system he?s in, not his prowess as a PG. Steve Nash at age 31 didn?t improve, he just had the right system. I?m sure if Marbury was in Phoenix with those kinds of players, he would be able to be the MVP too. The only one I?ll accept is Jason Kidd.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, I neglected this one, but I'd also put him behind Allen Iverson. Iverson was listed at the point guard this year mind you, and even though I find him overrated, he plays his heart and soul out every night and carried that team on his back to the playoffs. His supporting cast wasn't nearly as good as that of Marbury, however, he still got his team there. He willed his team in this year. Beyond that, he's a formere MVP and he's at least tasted what the NBA Finals were like. For that matter, he's tasted what a playoff series win is like as well. And, also, he's been an MVP. Three things Marbury hasn't done. So, that then will bump him down to #6 on my list, and probably won't go any lower then that. He's a career loser that puts up good stats, and quite frankly, wins are more important that numbers.</div>
    Yeah, he?s listed as a PG this year. If that?s the case, than yes, Marbury will be behind Iverson. The Knicks were injured pretty much the whole season so of course he?ll have a better team. Marbury puts up great numbers and has been in bad situations his whole career. How can you blame that on him? As I said earlier, KG and Brand were/are career loser and put up good stats.
     
  7. P.A.P.

    P.A.P. JBB Fresh Start

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, Nash was in PG heaven. When Marbury was around, he had Stoudemire as a rookie and Marion. That?s it. He also did manage to get them to game 6 against the NBA champion Spurs. Joe Johnson dramatically improved and they also got Quentin Richardson after Marbury left along with an ever improving Amare. You can?t put this all on Stephon.</div>

    Nash might of been it Point Guard heaven...but he also made it heaven for his players, something I really doubt Marbury could do with that current squad (excluding Nash obviously). Amare's rapid development also has a lot to do with Nash, as he might claim.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Nets were in a constant rebuilding process when Marbury came in and the very next year in 2000-2001:
    Marbury missed 15 games
    Van Horn missed 33 games
    Kenyon Martin missed 14 games (still rehabbing from his knee injury)
    Kendal Gill missed 51 games

    And when this happened, it was the same year they got Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles was healthy all season, acquired Todd MacCulloch, got Jason Collins (a decent role player), and a healthier Kenyon Martin.</div>

    Just want to clarify, that they weren't ever in a real "rebuilding process". If that was the case, Kenyon Martin wouldn't have been the number 1 pick of the 2000 draft.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It?s interesting how you mention the losses of Washington last season and yet, you still seem to forget Marbury?s misfortune in New Jersey. Also according to you, you can determine selfishness by some of the shots you take. Gilbert Arenas takes tons of bad shots and shoots on a less than stellar 43% from the field, and for every 5 assists he dishes out, he turns the ball over 3 times. Also what about him in the playoffs? Sure he averages 23 points, but he shoots the ball at 37% and 24% from behind the arc. He also takes about 20 shots per game! So he is a terrible PG in the playoffs who lead his team to the second round with the help of Chicago having two major injuries. Also, Golden State went 38-44 and were 7 games out of playoff contention.</div>

    I understand what you're saying here. Gilbert is like many other PG's in the league, a SG player the point.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Much of what you?re saying is based on some yearly progress and some even by 28 games! It?s interesting that Nash wasn?t doing this in Dallas, but he was doing it in Phoenix. It shows the type of system he?s in, not his prowess as a PG. Steve Nash at age 31 didn?t improve, he just had the right system. I?m sure if Marbury was in Phoenix with those kinds of players, he would be able to be the MVP too. The only one I?ll accept is Jason Kidd. </div>

    Did not improve? I have to really disagree on this one. Even according to Steve Nash himself, he improved. The boxscores don't tell the whole story. He became a better shooter when handling the ball in a one on one situation, he improved on his passing when he penetrates to the basket, he improved his ball handling skills. He improved every aspect of his game.

    Lets not kid ourselves. Marbury wouldn't even be in the top 10 for MVP balloting if he was on this Suns squad. His court vision and court awareness is not at the levels of Steve Nash's. Nash finds players and openings that no other PG can find (not even Kidd). Nash is also very unselfish. When he's on the court, he takes the mind set of a real PG (as he should) and uses himself as the 5th scoring option. Something we rarely see in this game, and he manages to get 16 PPG. He does have 3 (4 if you count Q) other players on his team that command double teams, so he does get a few points off their passes, however, he could could easily score 20 and dish 8 like Marbury, but he chooses not to. As a result, Nash himself, helps produces near 50 PPG (Points + Assists + FTM off passes). He's also a leader, something you cannot teach one to be.
     
  8. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash might of been it Point Guard heaven...but he also made it heaven for his players, something I really doubt Marbury could do with that current squad (excluding Nash obviously). Amare's rapid development also has a lot to do with Nash, as he might claim.</div>
    Marbury could have made it heaven for the Suns. He?s got good chemistry with Amare and Marion and adding two perimeter threats into the mix, would have helped too. Marbury has been much more effective with shooters around. I think Amare getting a jumpshot helped him the most. It made him almost unstoppable.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just want to clarify, that they weren't ever in a real "rebuilding process". If that was the case, Kenyon Martin wouldn't have been the number 1 pick of the 2000 draft.</div>
    How so?

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did not improve? I have to really disagree on this one. Even according to Steve Nash himself, he improved. The boxscores don't tell the whole story. He became a better shooter when handling the ball in a one on one situation, he improved on his passing when he penetrates to the basket, he improved his ball handling skills. He improved every aspect of his game.</div>
    Maybe I did overlook his improvement a bit. He didn?t improve dramatically is what I?m trying to say. I think some of the things he seemed to improve on were because of his situation. He was never with people who played like Marion and Amare up front. When you have two quick, athletic, and explosive big men who can also shoot as well, you?re going to be able to penetrate more easily. Also he has players like Q and JJ who are great shooters especially from 3. That helps Nash a lot.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lets not kid ourselves. Marbury wouldn't even be in the top 10 for MVP balloting if he was on this Suns squad. His court vision and court awareness is not at the levels of Steve Nash's. Nash finds players and openings that no other PG can find (not even Kidd). Nash is also very unselfish. When he's on the court, he takes the mind set of a real PG (as he should) and uses himself as the 5th scoring option. Something we rarely see in this game, and he manages to get 16 PPG. He does have 3 (4 if you count Q) other players on his team that command double teams, so he does get a few points off their passes, however, he could could easily score 20 and dish 8 like Marbury, but he chooses not to. As a result, Nash himself, helps produces near 50 PPG (Points + Assists + FTM off passes). He's also a leader, something you cannot teach one to be.</div>
    How do we know this? You can not honestly say that in the beginning of the season, you expected Nash to be a top 10 MVP candidate?much less the MVP of the league. So why couldn?t Marbury be in the top 10? During most of Marbury?s career he has scored because his team needs the points. The Knicks needed Marbury?s scoring this season. Also something that sets Marbury apart from others is that he gives you 20/8 consistently. Every single year it?s pretty much the same thing. No one in the league has ever career averages of 20 points and 8 assists but Marbury and The Big O. I think that?s a testament of how he can score and dish. A big reason why Nash doesn?t score 20/8 like Marbury is because he doesn?t have to because his supporting cast is much more scoring efficient.
     
  9. #3 Marbury

    #3 Marbury JBB JustBBall Member

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    wow! MRJ YOU DA MAN! You just showed Moo2k and Banks that you know your stuff about the Knicks and Marbury in general. You don't just believe the general media's view, you look beyond it and that is what a true NBA fan can do.

    Heh, I wonder if Moo2k or Banks can rebuttle your responses at all!
    [​IMG]
     
  10. P.A.P.

    P.A.P. JBB Fresh Start

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting #3 Marbury:</div><div class="quote_post">wow! MRJ YOU DA MAN! You just showed Moo2k and Banks that you know your stuff about the Knicks and Marbury in general. You don't just believe the general media's view, you look beyond it and that is what a true NBA fan can do.

    Heh, I wonder if Moo2k or Banks can rebuttle your responses at all!
    [​IMG]</div>

    lol, you can't even fight your own battle, so to speak, so I wouldn't really be saying much. Your arguements have to be the worse ones.

    I totally abandon this thread after my last post, but I wouldn't mind defending my own posts.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury could have made it heaven for the Suns. He?s got good chemistry with Amare and Marion and adding two perimeter threats into the mix, would have helped too. Marbury has been much more effective with shooters around. I think Amare getting a jumpshot helped him the most. It made him almost unstoppable.</div>

    I had to go through the whole thread again to see what we we're discussing.

    Anyways, the chemistry he has, isn't enough chemistry for him to lead the Suns to 62+ wins, if healthy. Nash thrives in the open court. He makes other players want to run. I don't know if the same could be said about Marbury. Although he can be very effective in open court with his quickness, he does not have the offensive awareness, unselfishness and courtvision (eyes at the back of his head) like Nash. With Marbury, they would be more of a half court team, which means less fast court oppurtunities. Although he could be break down the teams with his one on one moves, and create shots, Nash could do the same and more, since him and Amare are the best Pick and roll combo in the league.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just want to clarify, that they weren't ever in a real "rebuilding process". If that was the case, Kenyon Martin wouldn't have been the number 1 pick of the 2000 draft. </div>

    Martin was seen as someone who could contribute right away with not much potential as the other players picked behind him. Everyone knew he wasn't going to be that cornerstone player for the franchise. They were trying to get back to winning right away. If they were re-building, they would of chose a hot prospect to help build around like Stromile Swift. Obviously now, Martin is the better player, but back then, the better choice would of been Swift if they were a re-building team as you claim.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe I did overlook his improvement a bit. He didn?t improve dramatically is what I?m trying to say. I think some of the things he seemed to improve on were because of his situation. He was never with people who played like Marion and Amare up front. When you have two quick, athletic, and explosive big men who can also shoot as well, you?re going to be able to penetrate more easily. Also he has players like Q and JJ who are great shooters especially from 3. That helps Nash a lot.</div>

    It's more the other way around...Nash helps them alot. Amare was not seen as a perimeter threat until a couple of months into the season where started seeing a lot of them and started building off his shot (which he practiced alot last year). I wouldn't exactly call Marion a big man, but he's an average shooter for a SF. Whether or not you have Q and JJ on your team, your going to have other players fill their voids. When you have Nash on your team, your eventually going to learn how to shoot, if you can't, the team will find players that can.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How do we know this? You can not honestly say that in the beginning of the season, you expected Nash to be a top 10 MVP candidate?much less the MVP of the league. So why couldn?t Marbury be in the top 10? During most of Marbury?s career he has scored because his team needs the points. The Knicks needed Marbury?s scoring this season. Also something that sets Marbury apart from others is that he gives you 20/8 consistently. Every single year it?s pretty much the same thing. No one in the league has ever career averages of 20 points and 8 assists but Marbury and The Big O. I think that?s a testament of how he can score and dish. A big reason why Nash doesn?t score 20/8 like Marbury is because he doesn?t have to because his supporting cast is much more scoring efficient.</div>

    Actually, take this as you want, but I did think if the Suns were to win their division (which I believed they would after the off-season), then I expected Nash to be a top 10 canidate for the MVP award. If you add someone as significant as Nash, and your team improves dramatically like that, he's going to get a lot of credit (much well deserved).

    Honestly, I don't really care much about Marbury's numbers. I know he's an excellent player, but he doesn't stand out to me like Nash and other PG's because his teams have not had much sucess. 20-8 and the Suns team (excluding Nash) just doesn't add up to 62 wins (or close to it).
     
  11. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways, the chemistry he has, isn't enough chemistry for him to lead the Suns to 62+ wins, if healthy. Nash thrives in the open court. He makes other players want to run. I don't know if the same could be said about Marbury. Although he can be very effective in open court with his quickness, he does not have the offensive awareness, unselfishness and courtvision (eyes at the back of his head) like Nash. With Marbury, they would be more of a half court team, which means less fast court oppurtunities. Although he could be break down the teams with his one on one moves, and create shots, Nash could do the same and more, since him and Amare are the best Pick and roll combo in the league.</div>
    I just want to know how you know this? Everywhere Marbury has gone, he has been asked to do the scoring while distributing the ball. I think many people call him selfish because of his scoring role. If you had so many options to choose from, I don?t think you would hesitate to give up the ball. The fact of the matter is while Nash helped make his teammates better, he had the perfect combination of players and D?Antoni style of play was a major part of it as well. I really don?t think Nash breaks defense as easily as Marbury. Nash has two 3 point threats on the wing and is able to penetrate with ease?that doesn?t impress me. Marbury does the same thing with no shooters around and does it better than Nash. Most of Nash?s assists are on jumpshots because of this.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Martin was seen as someone who could contribute right away with not much potential as the other players picked behind him. Everyone knew he wasn't going to be that cornerstone player for the franchise. They were trying to get back to winning right away. If they were re-building, they would of chose a hot prospect to help build around like Stromile Swift. Obviously now, Martin is the better player, but back then, the better choice would of been Swift if they were a re-building team as you claim.</div>
    I don?t remember about Martin being seen without that much potential. He was the college player of the year and was a polished player and a hard worker if I?m not mistaken. Swift only had the athleticism and dunks etc. He was incredibly raw and inexperienced whereas Martin was pretty refined.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's more the other way around...Nash helps them alot. Amare was not seen as a perimeter threat until a couple of months into the season where started seeing a lot of them and started building off his shot (which he practiced alot last year). I wouldn't exactly call Marion a big man, but he's an average shooter for a SF. Whether or not you have Q and JJ on your team, your going to have other players fill their voids. When you have Nash on your team, your eventually going to learn how to shoot, if you can't, the team will find players that can.</div>
    They help each other out, but more so the team helps him. I say this because throughout Nash?s career, he never did anything like this before. He had many good players around him before like Dirk, Finley, Van Exel and the list goes on so, if he was this good, how come it never showed earlier? All of a sudden when he got these players, he puts up these type of numbers. I called Marion a big man because he played mostly PF this year. An average shooter for a SF, but pretty good for a PF. Q and JJ already had pretty good jumpers, and Amare worked on his jumper to strickly help his game. I don?t think he said because I?m playing with Nash, I better learn how to shoot. He?s had critics his first two years calling him strictly a power player, and I believe he did that to try to shut some of them up.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, take this as you want, but I did think if the Suns were to win their division (which I believed they would after the off-season), then I expected Nash to be a top 10 canidate for the MVP award. If you add someone as significant as Nash, and your team improves dramatically like that, he's going to get a lot of credit (much well deserved).</div>
    Yes, I believed that too. I?m saying before the season when Nash just got signed in July and Q got signed soon after, before they played their first game in the preseason, did you think Nash would be an MVP candidate.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Honestly, I don't really care much about Marbury's numbers. I know he's an excellent player, but he doesn't stand out to me like Nash and other PG's because his teams have not had much sucess. 20-8 and the Suns team (excluding Nash) just doesn't add up to 62 wins (or close to it).</div>
    Marbury was put in bad coincidences throughout his whole career. Injury riddled Nets, the Suns where he took them to the playoffs and took them to Game 6 against the future NBA champion Spurs. Career success can be an indicator of a players abilities, however, it isn?t always accurate. You don?t think Marbury and the Suns (excluding Nash of course) don?t add up to 62 wins, but I bet you didn?t think the original Suns (with Nash) could win 62 games either, did you?
     
  12. P.A.P.

    P.A.P. JBB Fresh Start

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I just want to know how you know this? Everywhere Marbury has gone, he has been asked to do the scoring while distributing the ball. I think many people call him selfish because of his scoring role. If you had so many options to choose from, I don?t think you would hesitate to give up the ball. The fact of the matter is while Nash helped make his teammates better, he had the perfect combination of players and D?Antoni style of play was a major part of it as well. I really don?t think Nash breaks defense as easily as Marbury. Nash has two 3 point threats on the wing and is able to penetrate with ease?that doesn?t impress me. Marbury does the same thing with no shooters around and does it better than Nash. Most of Nash?s assists are on jumpshots because of this. </div>

    Know what? I'm not saying Marbury is selfish, I'm just saying that Nash is very unselfish. You can't really teach that. He always looks as himself as the 5th scoring option on the court. Nash is so caught up in getting his teammates the open shots, that he often ignores open lanes to the basket to pass it out to his teammates, which results in an open shot. That might be a bad things at times, but take it as you want.

    I don't know how many is "most", but Nash gets quite a few of his assists from pick and rolls with Amare, whether Amare scores, or if someone else slashes into the lane for the shot.

    D'Antoni would not have played this style if he did not have Nash on the team. Nash was signed before the FA process began, so the Suns had an idea of what they were going to do with their team from their on out in the offseason.

    Nash penetrates with ease while getting his teammates with ease. If you watch the Suns, you can see that Nash controls the team. He gets everybody easy baskets. When you take him out of the game, the Suns are forced to play a slower pace game even with the speedy Barbosa. As you might have seen today, when Nash was out of the game, the dominating Amare, suddenly was dominating anymore and could not get the ball anymore. The Suns were not getting their open shots. He produces a lot of points, many that do not show up in the stat sheet. It's actualy really hard to put into words, how many points he scores. When Nash is on the court for 48MPG, the team averages 121.8 PPG with a +/- of +17.6. When Nash is off the court, the team averages 104 PPG/48M with a +/- of +2.1. That should say enough.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don?t remember about Martin being seen without that much potential. He was the college player of the year and was a polished player and a hard worker if I?m not mistaken. Swift only had the athleticism and dunks etc. He was incredibly raw and inexperienced whereas Martin was pretty refined. </div>

    His potential was not the same as Swift. Both were considered Top 3 Picks. Swift was a sophmore who just had a monster year with LSU. While Martin had a monster year as well, but it had taken him 3 years of college play for him to reach that monster year. Swift was shown as a player that would only build off that because he was a sophmore who brokeout in his second year, and because of that, he was displayed as the player with more potential.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They help each other out, but more so the team helps him. I say this because throughout Nash?s career, he never did anything like this before. He had many good players around him before like Dirk, Finley, Van Exel and the list goes on so, if he was this good, how come it never showed earlier? All of a sudden when he got these players, he puts up these type of numbers. I called Marion a big man because he played mostly PF this year. An average shooter for a SF, but pretty good for a PF. Q and JJ already had pretty good jumpers, and Amare worked on his jumper to strickly help his game. I don?t think he said because I?m playing with Nash, I better learn how to shoot. He?s had critics his first two years calling him strictly a power player, and I believe he did that to try to shut some of them up. </div>

    Firstly, this Suns team is more athletic than the Mavs team. They are also on a shorter rotation, so they play together more. Nash has a player named Amare on his team, and that is probably the biggest reason on why this Suns team has had more sucess than the previous Mavs team. When you have the best pick and roll combination in the league (Amare attacks the basket like no to other), you're going to have a lot of sucess. Amare's success has a lot more to do with Nash's prescence than it does with Nash's success and Amare's presence.

    Amare starting working on his jumpshot more midway through last season, after the trade and the firing because he had the time to dedicate to it because the team was going nowhere. It was the end of the season where he showed signs of developing one. He was busy throughout the summer with the Olympics and all. It was when he started working with Nash in training camp and throughout the season, where he realized that the jumpshot would be a important aspect to his game working with Nash, thus he put more of an effort in to work on the shot.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I believed that too. I?m saying before the season when Nash just got signed in July and Q got signed soon after, before they played their first game in the preseason, did you think Nash would be an MVP candidate.</div>

    Personally, I wasn't sure how well the team would do, but when I heard that Q and JJ would start, that's when the thought came to my mind. Since they were freakishly athletic and quick with firepower, I believe it was a good possibility that the team would suceed and Nash would have a legit shot. However, I did think the usuals (KG, TD, Shaq) would be the talk for the MVP.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury was put in bad coincidences throughout his whole career. Injury riddled Nets, the Suns where he took them to the playoffs and took them to Game 6 against the future NBA champion Spurs. Career success can be an indicator of a players abilities, however, it isn?t always accurate. You don?t think Marbury and the Suns (excluding Nash of course) don?t add up to 62 wins, but I bet you didn?t think the original Suns (with Nash) could win 62 games either, did you?</div>

    I never really thought in my head that "the Suns can win 62 games this year because they have Nash and this firepower team". It was more of a smaller thing, like them winning the division. I knew they would be good, but not this good. I don't think anyone predicted them to be this good.
     
  13. #3 Marbury

    #3 Marbury JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Know what? I'm not saying Marbury is selfish, I'm just saying that Nash is very unselfish. You can't really teach that. He always looks as himself as the 5th scoring option on the court. Nash is so caught up in getting his teammates the open shots, that he often ignores open lanes to the basket to pass it out to his teammates, which results in an open shot. That might be a bad things at times, but take it as you want.</div>
    How can you say Nash isn't selfish, from what I've seen in the playoffs, he is one of the most selfish players I've ever seen and his team still loses. Marbury may be selfish, but when he scores 48 points his team wins.
     
  14. Tribute to H2O

    Tribute to H2O JBB JustBBall Rookie Of The Month

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting #3 Marbury:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you say Nash isn't selfish, from what I've seen in the playoffs, he is one of the most selfish players I've ever seen and his team still loses. Marbury may be selfish, but when he scores 48 points his team wins.</div>

    You cant be serious! And I suppose you just forgot to mention he's still getting 14 assists per game! The Spurs are forcing Nash to shoot the ball so the rest of the team doesnt get open shots. The reason why the Suns are losing is because of the less than spectacular play of Q and Marion and the fact that there's noone on the bench they can go to. Nash is without a doubt better than Marbury. I wish I could trade Marbury for him.



    Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
     
  15. Wade03

    Wade03 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting #3 Marbury:</div><div class="quote_post">Banks you are crazy, if you have the leagues best point guard, Crawford, Wally, KT, Sweetney + picks you're gonna be a title contender in the east for sure.

    If a team like NJ made playoffs this year then NY is gonna dominate next year. NJ had no big men and the 3rd best pg, a injured deteriorating VC, and a guy who can only dunk(RJ). NY will be in the ECF no prob.</div>

    The leagues best point guard is going way too far, the leagues best point guard is Nash. I'm not even sure if Marbury would make the top 6 point guards (IMO: Nash,Kidd,Baron,Francis,Parker,Billups). Marbury is a team cancer and althoguh I really like him as a player if we had the chance to trade him for another PG of higher calibur I would in a hearbeat. We will def not be a contender next year no matter matter what realistic trades we make with teams like Miami and Detroit in the East. If we wait till Houston's contract expires and we can maybe get someone in the likes of Lebron then we can talk.
     

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