^Im not too big on the arguement of whos supporting cast is better.Shaq was 2nd in MVP votes received and he plays for the heat.If youre going to make a supporting cast arguement I think that pretty much kills it.What Wade is doing now is incredible,but i think its hard to compare the two players based on what Wade is doing now because Lebron isnt even playing.Slap yourself if you try to use the last part of my previous sentence as an arguement that Wade is better.Lebron is interchangeable between the 1-3 spots,if he played for the Suns it would be 1-4.You can plug him in almost anywhere and he'll conquer.Lebron has an incredible ability to score,almost at will.Along with that hes willing to pass the ball,actually likes passing,and hes very good at it.So he has about the same ability to be at the finishing end of a highlight as he does to be at the set up end of a highlight.I dont think theres ever been a player that has had that quality on the same level as Lebron.
Umm... ever heard the name Magic Johnson, who actually played all the positions from PG to Center? Anyways, I think we already conceded the fact that Lebron is the better scorer and passer, but only slightly, Wade isn't that far behind. However, for the 3rd time, Wade is the better defender, more clutch, more motivated, and has more willpower than LeBron. So how come you don't take into account these factors and all you talk about is Lebron's offensive prowess?
Btw I think people forget that they're comparing a 6-8 240lb Forward to a 6-4 212lb Guard. Because LeBron is physically gifted he can play more positions and overpower most of his defenders which makes it easier to score. It also discredits those "LeBron can play more positions" arguments as valid to this comparison. Anyways, asking who's better or if they're on the same level is like asking "Who would you rather have: Tom Brady or Payton Manning?". Obviously most will favor Payton Manning but when it comes down to it, Tom Brady is the player who can take you to the top while Payton Manning has not proven that he can take his team to the next level. So go ahead and think that James is the better player. He might just be. But at the end of the day, Wade is the player that can take your team to the next level while James will continue to disappoint year after year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So go ahead and think that James is the better player. He might just be. But at the end of the day, Wade is the player that can take your team to the next level while James will continue to disappoint year after year.</div> I don't feel that is a fair assesment, especially to say Lebron will continue to dissapoint year after year. Right now it's only been 2 years, to basically say he's doomed for a career of failure is not true, and very out of line. Wade right now is as good a player, and I agree with SupraJames, too many people are talking about how Lebron is a better all-round offensive player, yet neglect defense, which is 50% of the game, and other factors where Wade beats Lebron.
I think that more willpower and more motivated thing is a bunch of crap.Youre measuring that how? Lebron shoots in the low 40 percentile his rookie year comes back and shoots in the high 40 percentile his sophmore year,motivation.He also significantly improved his 3pt shot.Willpower? I dont know how you measure that other than by numbers.Points scored in the 4th quarter maybe.Im sure theres not much difference between the two.To SupraJames,when I said "no one has had that quality on Lebrons level" I meant that no one has the ability to both finish a play as well as set it up.If you did understand that and thats what your reply was to,Magic is nowhere near the finisher Lebron is.Come on everyone,i realize that what Wade is doing is amazing.All i know is Lebron outdoes Wade in more categories and has a built in advantage,being his height and athleticism.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Btw I think people forget that they're comparing a 6-8 240lb Forward to a 6-4 212lb Guard. Because LeBron is physically gifted he can play more positions and overpower most of his defenders which makes it easier to score. It also discredits those "LeBron can play more positions" arguments as valid to this comparison.</div>Wait,how does that discredit the "lebron is more versatile "arguement?He is 6'8 240 and can play point guard at a high level and showed he could do it consistently.Thats simply amazing and only reinforces the "more versatile" arguement.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that more willpower and more motivated thing is a bunch of crap.Youre measuring that how? Lebron shoots in the low 40 percentile his rookie year comes back and shoots in the high 40 percentile his sophmore year,motivation.He also significantly improved his 3pt shot.Willpower? I dont know how you measure that other than by numbers.Points scored in the 4th quarter maybe.Im sure theres not much difference between the two.To SupraJames,when I said "no one has had that quality on Lebrons level" I meant that no one has the ability to both finish a play as well as set it up.If you did understand that and thats what your reply was to,Magic is nowhere near the finisher Lebron is.Come on everyone,i realize that what Wade is doing is amazing.All i know is Lebron outdoes Wade in more categories and has a built in advantage,being his height and athleticism.</div> You're kidding me right? You're saying willpower and motivated is a bunch of crap? That's what makes or break a player man... look up a certain Michael Jordan. Now, again, let me state this for the 4th time, Wade is the better defensive player at 4 inch shorter than Lebron is. What does that show? That means Lebron is lazier, plays only 50% of the game (offense) and neglects the other half of the game (defense). That is unacceptable. That does not make someone better. Now I'm not saying Lebron is a crappy defender, but he's not as good as Wade defensively. Also, when I say willpower, Wade WILLS his team to victory. Case in point: Playoffs last year AND this year. He basically willed the Heat to win without Shaq in the last 2 games vs Washington this year... in Washington's own home court. I don't know how else to explain this to you other than to watch Wade more. He brings his game, and others, to a higher level and make big plays/stops one after another. Last year was especially evident when he took it to B.Diddy and JO. If you want to talk numbers, let's go. LeBron shot what, 41.7% as a rookie last year. This year he's shooting 47.2%, good job, he's ALMOST shooting as well as Wade is (Wade is shooting 47.8% right now). Now, let me direct your attention to the fact that Wade is a guard, James is a forward. We all know that guards traditionally shoot lower percentages than forwards here... so one can easily make an argument that Wade is the more efficient player in terms of shooting the ball here, but let's move on to another point. Defensively, LeBron might have an edge in the steals category. However, if you watched both of them, you will know that Wade is the better defender. James is more of a steal off a bad pass, runaway and dunk kinda defender, which is fine, but lookie here - Wade, at 6'4, is averaging 1.1 bpg this year, up .5 blks from his rookie year. That is a significant improvement. This shows you that Wade has dedicated himself to not only playing offense, but also defense. This is what makes good players great. Ask one of only 2 guards to ever win the Defensive Player of the Year award - Michael Jordan. Meanwhile, James is averaging a measely 0.7bpg at 6'8 240lbs and much more hops than Wade.... That is sad. This just shows you again how much of a complete player Wade is than Lebron. By the way, Magic Johnson might not have the hops or the dunk moves that Lebron have, but that does not mean he's not as good of a finisher as Lebron... Magic might not do it as "cool" as James, but trust me, he gets the job done. He's the better set up person and just as good of a finisher as Lebron. Don't believe me? Find some old tapes on Johnson. I'm sure you've seen him busting the famous running baby hookshot or tapping that rebound in to beat the Celts in one of those legendary intense playoff games (forgot the exact year / game).
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Magic might not do it as "cool" as James</div> He did it cooler. A lot cooler. And I agree with your points about Wade vs LeBron.
Dwayne wade is A hell of a lot better on defence. it was the reason why the cavaliers lost. If the superstar of the team is lazy on defence like lebron, the team becomes lazy. Look what Tim duncan has done to the spurs! Lebron is a better scored because of his shooting. but dwayne wade is a better defender and defence wins championships HOLLA BACK DE-TROIT!
You can't be considered the best player in the league and not make the playoffs. Lebron is a great talent but must become a better leader and motivator before he can be labeled in the same class as Tim Duncan or Shaq. Those guys are winners who make guys around them better. Lebron gets guys some easy baskets but the fact remains guards don't get the same kind of attention as big men do in the post. The Double teams are easier to work around for big men than guards. Lebron needs a great shooter by his side for his team-mates to actually take advantage of his quailties. There'a no real excuse for a so called top 3 player to not get to the playoffs in the east having guys like big Z and Gooden has your frontcourt. Cavs lacked shooters though, which was their downfall. Wade is an amazing talent and seems to get the most out of his team-mates. He has that never say die attuide which winners naturally have. I'm not saying Wade is better but they are on the same level. Wade is better at getting into the lane than Lebron while Lebron is better at using his size and strength. Although I'm sure Lebron would love to have shooters like Damon and Eddie Jones by his side. His life would be far more easier If he did. The Cavs have quite abit to do this summer, finding some shooters will the main goal. If the Cavs land Redd then we should be able to see what Lebron can do in the playoffs. I fear Lebron could go down the same road that T-mac and KG have been down over the years.
The most striking difference for me is Wade doesn't shy away from contact nearly as much as LeBron. Like Iverson or Ginobili, Wade is constantly in attack mode trying to maneuver himself close to the basket and get some contact. He has a nice 18 footer to keep defenses honest, but his primary option is always getting himself to the basket and drawing fouls. LeBron is very adept at scoring close the basket, but as the year progressed he relied more and more on his outside shot (is it a coincidence that this coincided with the Cavs downturn in the standings?). While LeBron is a great passer, he doesn't have the same mentality that he needs to get everyone else involved like Wade does (which is natural, since he doesn't play as many minutes at point guard). As a result, he's not as committed to penetrating and looking to create better shots for himself and his teammates. He'll settle for the outside shot. When Wade is feeling it, you'll find that he makes a greater effort to get to the basket and manufacture plays. When LeBron is feeling it, he tends to hang around the perimeter and shoot tough jumpers (like a Kobe or T-Mac).
It looks like the Kobe v. T-Mac debate has been replaced with Wade v. James now. At this point Wade has to be the favorite because he's made the playoffs twice, while LeBron has just missed them twice. What also makes Wade a better player is the fact the team has not even been built around him and he's putting up amazing numbers. The Cavs have spent the last two seasons trying to build around LeBron James. In 3 to 5 years though, LeBron should be the better player, but let's all just enjoy the wait.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Wait,how does that discredit the "lebron is more versatile "arguement?He is 6'8 240 and can play point guard at a high level and showed he could do it consistently.Thats simply amazing and only reinforces the "more versatile" arguement.</div> Penalizing Wade for not being able to play the Forward position is like penalizing Earl Boykins for not being able to play Forward. Is that clearer? YES LeBron James has Guard skillz but he was fortunate enough to have to have the body of a Forward. Wade barely has the body of a SG; he's more of a combo guard because of his limitations. We're not comparing LeBron the Forward to Wade the Guard, we're comparing LeBron the Guard to Wade the Guard. To say "he can play more positions than Wade" is something Wade has no control over so it's invalid to this comparison. That's ignorant to penalize Wade for not being as physically gifted as LeBron.
^I dont see how that playoff arguement can be used considering the players Wades had on his team the past two years.I dont see how Wade can be given the advantage with these playoff and will power/determination/attitude arguements.<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There'a no real excuse for a so called top 3 player to not get to the playoffs in the east having guys like big Z and Gooden has your frontcourt.</div>Ok so lets say Lebron isnt a top 3 player.Do you think Lebron would have missed the playoffs if he had Shaq on his team or the team Wade had last year.I dont think so.I think if you swapped Wade with James on the heat right now it would be over,Heat win it all.Thats only speculation though.Wade is an elite defender,but James is also a very good one.I think James is 1 of 2 guys in the league that cant even be bothered by any one defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Heat4Life:</div><div class="quote_post"> That's ignorant to penalize Wade for not being as physically gifted as LeBron.</div> I disagree with that. If you want to compare who's the better player, you have to take into account all of their abilities, including physical. Dwayne Wade might be a tad quicker and can maneuver more easily around defenders due to his smaller build. And LeBron is a better rebounder and more capable of guarding forwards due to his larger size. You have to take everything into account.
LOL OK GiantMidget LeBron James wasn't physically gifted to reach the playoffs. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree with that. If you want to compare who's the better player, you have to take into account all of their abilities, including physical. Dwayne Wade might be a tad quicker and can maneuver more easily around defenders due to his smaller build. And LeBron is a better rebounder and more capable of guarding forwards due to his larger size. You have to take everything into account.</div> So you think it's fair to compare Earl Boykins to Shaq?
^ So are you disagreeing that Wade has had a better team around him than Lebron for the past 2 years?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So you think it's fair to compare Earl Boykins to Shaq?</div> Well Boykins can play PG and Shaq can't. Boykins can also play on the perimeter while Shaq can't, that is not on the same level as comparing Lebron and Wade. Boykins can do things that Shaq can't, while Lebron can do everything Wade can + more.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">^ So are you disagreeing that Wade has had a better team around him than Lebron for the past 2 years?</div> First off the Heat was never built around Wade. It was built around Odom last year, and this year around Shaq. Shaq tips the scales in the Heat's favor this year, but last year the rosters were close enough. Cavs had LeBron+Ilgauskas+Boozer (35-47) Heat had Wade+Odom+Jones (42-40) The Heat had to deal with a lot injuries as well including Wade only playing in 61 games and Butler only playing in 68 games. Still they managed to have 7 more victories. The Cavs had to deal with a lot of trades all season, but I think overall Cleveland actually had a better lineup. The Cavs improved 18 games from the previous year, and the Heat improved 17 games from the previous year. This year the Heat improved by another 17 games, but the Cavs only improved by 7 games. I think it's fair to throw in position and physical attributes into the comparison. As far as being able to play more positions, LeBron gets the nod. LeBron is also 2 years younger than Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">while Lebron can do everything Wade can + more.</div> Not true. See above. I've presented the facts, the stats and the arguments on my previous posts. If you guys choose to ignore them, then I have no reason to discuss this matter with you. If you "can't see" how will power/determination/attitude arguements actually play a role when comparing players, then there really is no point for anyone to argue with you because you only see it from your own narrow point of view. I have shot down every wrong arguments you presented (issues ranging from being the best setup/finisher to the most versatile player ever - which is not Lebron) and agreed with you on issues that are, as a matter of fact, correct. i.e: Lebron is the better scorer, better rebounder, etc. By the way GiantMidget, I like how you very very quickly go away from the defense issue as evident in your one and only line when talking about defense, shifting the focus from defense to offense right away. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade is an elite defender,but James is also a very good one.I think James is 1 of 2 guys in the league that cant even be bothered by any one defender.</div>
