<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">^I dont see how that playoff arguement can be used considering the players Wades had on his team the past two years.I dont see how Wade can be given the advantage with these playoff and will power/determination/attitude arguements.Ok so lets say Lebron isnt a top 3 player.Do you think Lebron would have missed the playoffs if he had Shaq on his team or the team Wade had last year.I dont think so.I think if you swapped Wade with James on the heat right now it would be over,Heat win it all.Thats only speculation though.Wade is an elite defender,but James is also a very good one.I think James is 1 of 2 guys in the league that cant even be bothered by any one defender.</div> LeBron is far from being a very good defender. He gets burned quite a bit on the defensive end.
First off, whoever said Lebron can do every Wade can and more. He can't produce the same amount of energy and hustle Wade brings to the court. If he did, his offensive stats would probably drops some. Anyway whoever is talking about versatility. If you talk about defensively, they can probably both cover 2 1/2 positions. Lebron: SF,PF, most big SGs Wade: PG, SG, most small SFs eg. Lebron can't cover a player like Wade eg. Wade couldn't cover someone as big as Lebron or not as well. I think if you swapped Wade and Lebron from 2003-2004 Cavs and 2003-2004 Heat that Wade's team would make playoffs from either team and Lebrons didn't with one and probably wouldn't with the other. Wade seems to bring the team together and lead by example on the court. He always gives it his all, sacrificing his body by driving hard all the time to lead his team to victory. Lebron has adopted more of the Tmac/Carter style of shooting shots close to the three and not playing hard defense. Lebron > physically gifted Wade > Stronger mentally/Leader and has a more overall complete game
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">First off the Heat was never built around Wade. It was built around Odom last year, and this year around Shaq. Shaq tips the scales in the Heat's favor this year, but last year the rosters were close enough. Cavs had LeBron+Ilgauskas+Boozer (35-47) Heat had Wade+Odom+Jones (42-40) The Heat had to deal with a lot injuries as well including Wade only playing in 61 games and Butler only playing in 68 games. Still they managed to have 7 more victories. The Cavs had to deal with a lot of trades all season, but I think overall Cleveland actually had a better lineup. The Cavs improved 18 games from the previous year, and the Heat improved 17 games from the previous year. This year the Heat improved by another 17 games, but the Cavs only improved by 7 games. I think it's fair to throw in position and physical attributes into the comparison. As far as being able to play more positions, LeBron gets the nod. LeBron is also 2 years younger than Wade.</div> You cant just put together the top three names of the players on the team and say that one player had the better lineup than the other. Basketball much more complex than that. You have to take into account the team's depth, coaching, stability of the franchise, chemisty, how well the team's players compliment each other, etc. I think you consider all these things, instead of just putting a bunch of players names on paper and comparing them, Wade clearly had a better team around him than LeBron did. EDIT: On LeBron's defense, I'll agree that he is a poor defender and needs a lot of improvement in that area. But in his defense, you cant expect a player to play as many minutes as he does and have to be depended on to carry all the offensive load for his team while still playing tough defense. He would easily ware himself out providing all the offense while trying to an All NBA defender. Wade has more scorers on his team to carry the offensive load with him, allowing him to focus more of his energy on D.
James is better than wade right now. Wade doesnt have to take on the role that james does. James faces so much more pressure than him. The cavs have no one to help him out, even boozer is gone. Wade hasnt had to take the same leadership roles. He has had other people on his team to step up for him, this year and last. Lebron is too young right now to have to take on such a big responsibility. Look at the stats though, lebron is definetly in the top three in the league right now, with tmac and kobe. with 7+ boards, 7+ assists, 25+ points, 45+ shooting perscentage, and 2+ in steals. Not many people have ever accomplished that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Not true. See above. I've presented the facts, the stats and the arguments on my previous posts. If you guys choose to ignore them, then I have no reason to discuss this matter with you. If you "can't see" how will power/determination/attitude arguements actually play a role when comparing players, then there really is no point for anyone to argue with you because you only see it from your own narrow point of view. I have shot down every wrong arguments you presented (issues ranging from being the best setup/finisher to the most versatile player ever - which is not Lebron) and agreed with you on issues that are, as a matter of fact, correct. i.e: Lebron is the better scorer, better rebounder, etc. By the way GiantMidget, I like how you very very quickly go away from the defense issue as evident in your one and only line when talking about defense, shifting the focus from defense to offense right away.</div> Huh? Are you sure you're replying to the right person here? First of all, I have been arguing that Wade is just as good, and secondly, maybe I should've clarified, but that was in reference to offensive skills. I'm talking about pure skills, Lebron can do just as many things as Wade can + more, this is not reffering to intangibles, or hustle or anything like that. Lebron has the physical tools to fill more roles and do more things on the court than Wade. That was just an odd reply... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">James is better than wade right now. Wade doesnt have to take on the role that james does. James faces so much more pressure than him. The cavs have no one to help him out, even boozer is gone. Wade hasnt had to take the same leadership roles. He has had other people on his team to step up for him, this year and last. Lebron is too young right now to have to take on such a big responsibility. Look at the stats though, lebron is definetly in the top three in the league right now, with tmac and kobe. with 7+ boards, 7+ assists, 25+ points, 45+ shooting perscentage, and 2+ in steals. Not many people have ever accomplished that.</div> This is far from the truth. So when the Wizards were doubling him as soon as he passed halfcourt, that was not defensive pressure? Everytime Shaq is out of the game, Wade has 4-6 eyes on him at all times, and even when Shaq is in the game, the defense is still worried. Who was stepping up to take the leadership role from Wade last season in the playoffs, Odom? Wade carried the Heat through the playoffs, and this playoffs with Shaq injured and out, Wade has carried the team with his play, and mentally. Look at Wade's stats: 25 PPG | 5 RPG | 7 APG | 1.6 SPG, and he's a much superior defender at his position than Lebron is at his.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Heat4Life:</div><div class="quote_post"> So you think it's fair to compare Earl Boykins to Shaq?</div> Of course it is. Shaq is a greater basketball player than Boykins (ie. I'd rather have him on my team than Boykins). I have no problem with that statement. Some guys are more gifted physically than others. Some guys are also more gifted mentally than others. If you want to ignore physical superiority when comparing players, shouldn't you also ignore mental superiority? It doesn't make sense to me. You have to look at everything each player brings to the table. Players who naturally have greater height, strength, wingspan, intelligence, etc. are simply at an advantage. They tend to be better players. Less gifted players simply have to work harder to be as good.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">EDIT: On LeBron's defense, I'll agree that he is a poor defender and needs a lot of improvement in that area. But in his defense, you cant expect a player to play as many minutes as he does and have to be depended on to carry all the offensive load for his team while still playing tough defense. He would easily ware himself out providing all the offense while trying to an All NBA defender. Wade has more scorers on his team to carry the offensive load with him, allowing him to focus more of his energy on D.</div> Wade has more scorers on his team, mainly due to Shaq, but outside of Shaq, who are the other scorers? Damon Jones is not a scorer, he's a shooter, he doesn't create his own shots at all. Eddie Jones is a capable scorer, but at this point in his career, not better than a McInnis, and Haslem is not a scorer, just a guy that will feed off the main players. While Shaq is out, Wade still plays All NBA level Defense, while carrying the offense, and really being the only playmaker on the team. While Shaq is out, their's no Heat scorer on the same level as a Zydrunas Ilguaskas. Lebron doesn't have the defensive attitude yet, he doesn't look to get down and dirty, and shut down his man like Wade does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mommy:</div><div class="quote_post">You cant just put together the top three names of the players on the team and say that one player had the better lineup than the other. Basketball much more complex than that. You have to take into account the team's depth, coaching, stability of the franchise, chemisty, how well the team's players compliment each other, etc. I think you consider all these things, instead of just putting a bunch of players names on paper and comparing them, Wade clearly had a better team around him than LeBron did. </div> Heat was a losing team when Wade entered. Heat got 10th and 5th pick and that tells you how poor the Heat played prior to getting Wade. Coaching? It was SVG's first year coaching. Cavs had a vet coach in Paul Silas. Chemistry.....I don't know. We had an old and undersized center in Grant, also deteriorating Eddie Jones, injured Caron Butler, new face Lamar, Skip, etc. I'm not saying the Cavs had a better team but we didn't have a better one either. That also tells you about depth cuz we didn't have a true center while the Cavs had a decent center or perhaps an all star center who played about 80 games and put up solid numbers. Anyways, this is a good debate but if Wade wins rings and LeBron gets none, 50 years from now, people will remember Wade not LeBron cuz Wade was a game winner.
Im a Heat fan, first and foremost. When Wade came into this league and started performing the way he has, I questioned whether he could sustain the climb as one of the best guards in the league. He not only has proven he is one of the top guards, he has proven that he is one of the best players period. Wade averages 31, 9, 6, 52% without Shaq in the lineup, proving he can perform without the Daddy in the lineup. As nice of a passing ability he possesses, I still feel people underate his passing ability. There are a lot of great athletic scorers in this league, but that alone doesnt make you a superstar. Wade does it at both ends of the court, and IMO, he is the best player in the NBA right now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways, this is a good debate but if Wade wins rings and LeBron gets none, 50 years from now, people will remember Wade not LeBron cuz Wade was a game winner.</div> They'll say that Wade had Shaq.The more arguements i read for Wade the more i think bias is playing a large role in these opinions.Id have no problem admitting Wade was better if it were true.Lebron is better,cant argue with the Wade fanboys on this anymore.
One other thing to take into account is turnovers. That's Wade's biggest weakness, in my opinion, and LeBron has relatively few turnovers given the number of touches he gets. Wade is averaging nearly 6 turnovers a game in the postseason, which just might be some sort of record.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Im a Heat fan, first and foremost. When Wade came into this league and started performing the way he has, I questioned whether he could sustain the climb as one of the best guards in the league. He not only has proven he is one of the top guards, he has proven that he is one of the best players period. Wade averages 31, 9, 6, 52% without Shaq in the lineup, proving he can perform without the Daddy in the lineup. As nice of a passing ability he possesses, I still feel people underate his passing ability. There are a lot of great athletic scorers in this league, but that alone doesnt make you a superstar. Wade does it at both ends of the court, and IMO, he is the best player in the NBA right now.</div> I don't agree with this, now, their's liking a player, but this is being extrmely biased. Wade has not done anything yet for him to be considered the best player in the NBA. You're telling be he's better than Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett [playoffs or no playoffs], and even Shaq? Wade is good, but he's not even the best guard in the league right now, as McGrady and Kobe though having a down year can still challenge him, and are both competent players on both ends of the floor. It's still arguable whether he's better than Lebron, he's on the same level, but it's arguable as to if he's better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Huh? Are you sure you're replying to the right person here? First of all, I have been arguing that Wade is just as good, and secondly, maybe I should've clarified, but that was in reference to offensive skills. I'm talking about pure skills, Lebron can do just as many things as Wade can + more, this is not reffering to intangibles, or hustle or anything like that. Lebron has the physical tools to fill more roles and do more things on the court than Wade. That was just an odd reply...</div> No it wasn't aimed to you. The part before the bolded ones was though. GiantMidget, so what if I'm a "Wade fanboy"? You know I'm also a Lebron fan.. I even have his jersey. Your arguments are just weak man, instead of providing facts to backup your statement, you just take the easy way out, make totally unrelated excuses (like the Wade fanboy excuse) and leave.
^No i think its at the point where stating facts isnt going to change anyones mind because most people have conviction in their opinions on this,which is fine.BUT,<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This year he's shooting 47.2%, good job, he's ALMOST shooting as well as Wade is (Wade is shooting 47.8% right now). Now, let me direct your attention to the fact that Wade is a guard, James is a forward. We all know that guards traditionally shoot lower percentages than forwards here... so one can easily make an argument that Wade is the more efficient player in terms of shooting the ball here</div> Wade shoots one half of a percent better from the field but shoots 7 percent worse from 3.Lebrons average from 3 is decent,Wades is poor.Theyre both wing players.Lebron is a better shooter.That was an example of how youre kinda twisting facts around or ignoring certain ones all together,SupraJames.James is an awful defender?Hes second in the league in steals,its a defensive stat.He forces turnovers,plain and simple.The statement on Lebron being a poor defender is a HUGE exaggeration.The majority in here think Wade is as good or better,the majority outside of this forum say Lebron is better.
Since when playing PG becomes a wing player? Okay, Lebron shoots a higher 3pt percentage, that still doesn't change the fact that Lebron shoots worse than Wade overall... How is that twisting facts around? And yeah, what about the fact that Wade is a Guard, Lebron is a forward, and forwards traditionally shoot higher percentages? Lebron is not a poor defender, I never said that. He's not bad, but he's lazy, and he is not near Wade's level in terms of defense for the facts/stats I have posted. By the way, how come you are only answering some points in my posts and not entirely? You've ignored quite alot of my points there...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, Lebron shoots a higher 3pt percentage, that still doesn't change the fact that Lebron shoots worse than Wade overall... </div>The point is Lebron attempts a fair amount of 3s and it brings his total fg percentage down.Wade thrives on taking it to the basket and takes high percentage shots,closer to the basket.Yet the two players field goal percentages arent even seperated by a full percentage point.Are you trying to say that field goal percentage is the end all statistic in terms of shooting?Shaq shoots an insane fg percentage,much better than Ray Allen.Is he a better shooter because of it?No.The fact is James shoots deeper range shots and is better at it.Better shooter.I dont think im mistaken about Wade being the starting shooting guard for the Heat.Wing player.Sure Wade shifts over to PG,but so does James.Haha,christ...LEBRON IS A BETTER SHOOTER.Better passer and he IS MORE VERSATILE.Hes better at playing more positions and guarding more positions.How can that be argued? SupraJames,you misunderstood earlier when you thought I said will and heart dont matter.What i said was its silly to make some equation to measure those qualities in the 2 players.Wade has more drive and will?Prove it.You cant,because that statement is hogwash.Sure Wade has plenty of that,but you cant say Lebron lacks those qualities or has less than Wade especially when you look at the crazy numbers James has put up.Lebron was playing like a man possessed at the end of the season.For me it comes down to Wade is a better defender and Lebron is more versatile,one of the most versatile ever.Wade is a great scorer but James does as he pleases on offense,cant even be bothered.Finally,what shocks me the most is that after those things are considered, James is one of the best passers in the League.
Actually if you consider scoring efficiency which is a more important stat than FG%, Lebron likely has the edge as he shoots a much better three point percentage, while taking a lot more three's, though Wade get's to the line more and shoots better there. Their eFG%: Lebron - 50.4% | Wade - 48.3% Their TS%: Lebron - 53.9% | Wade - 54.0% So Lebron is a more efficient shooter from the field, but Wade is overall a slightly more efficient scorer as he get's to the line more [about 2 more times a game] and hits a higher percentage of his FT's.
Finally, a real post from GiantMidget. Comparing Ray Allen to Shaq, is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure they're both basketball players, but they play different positions. It doesn't make sense to compare a SG to a Center but Wade and James, even though they play different positions, we can still compare the two because their playing style is almost the same - except Lebron shoots more 3s and Wade drives more I guess. Now if you think that Lebron can do anything as he pleases on offense, then why doesn't he shoot more non-3s? If he's so good, he should be able to just not take 3s, drive, dunk, shoot midrange, etc etc and just be more efficient and take the higher percentage shot right? Wade recognizes the fact that he shoots better percentage, and therefore more efficient, when he attacks the basket instead of settling for 3s. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha,christ...LEBRON IS A BETTER SHOOTER.Better passer and he IS MORE VERSATILE.Hes better at playing more positions and guarding more positions.How can that be argued?</div> Uhh... when have I ever argued that Wade is the better shooter, the better passer, and more versatile player offensively? I said Wade is more efficient, not a better shooter. I think everyone on this thread has agreed all along that Lebron is a better offensive player.. nobody's arguing with you on that... I think you're starting to have illusions here.. And no, Lebron might be able to guard more positions, but the quality of defense he brings is not at the same level as Wade. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">SupraJames,you misunderstood earlier when you thought I said will and heart dont matter.What i said was its silly to make some equation to measure those qualities in the 2 players.Wade has more drive and will?Prove it.You cant,because that statement is hogwash.Sure Wade has plenty of that,but you cant say Lebron lacks those qualities or has less than Wade especially when you look at the crazy numbers James has put up.Lebron was playing like a man possessed at the end of the season.For me it comes down to Wade is a better defender and Lebron is more versatile,one of the most versatile ever.Wade is a great scorer but James does as he pleases on offense,cant even be bothered.Finally,what shocks me the most is that after those things are considered, James is one of the best passers in the League.</div> If you watched Wade last year in the playoff and this whole year (because the Heat are being shown on national TV more this year), you will see what I mean. You must not have watched alot of D.Wade. I take it that you've watched alot of Lebron. I don't have to prove to you that Wade has more of those intangibles than Lebron, you just watch it. So far, nobody else in this thread has closed their minds from these intangibles, just you. Finally, I don't understand, what's so shocking that James is one of the best passers in the league? Everybody already know that he's an exceptional passer from like 3 years ago when he was in HS...
I can't remember one time during the season seeing LeBron take a charge, whereas Wade has done it a number of times. LeBron has good instincts and reflexes, which allowed him to get a number of steals playing the passing lanes and stripping unsuspecting offensive players from behind. But one on one he was below-average, in my opinion. He also wasn't very good, in general, with making the rotations. Essentially, all he did on defense was wander looking to get steals or go for the defensive rebound. That's kind of how I play D on NBA Live. It works nicely for a videogame where you just want to get a fast break started, but that's not how you should play in real life. I also notice that LeBron only averaged 1.8 PF playing 40+ minutes a game. Now, PF are usually not a favorable stat for a player to have, but still when a player rarely ever picks up a foul that's usually an indication that he's not really trying that hard to stop opposing players from scoring. All great defenders often find themselves in foul trouble. I don't think LeBron was in foul trouble even once all year. I wouldn't say Wade is a stellar defensive player at this point either, though he is much better one-on-one. Both players will improve their defense down the road, and I expect them to eventually become perennial All-Defense.
While I agree that Wade is not a stellar defender in the same level as Artest, Bowen, Big Ben, etc. he's at least an elite defender, above average and of course better than Lebron. I truly believe he will develop into a real nice 1on1 defender a la Gary Payton (minus the constant trash talking). Dwyane Wade averages 1.1bpg as a guard. He leads all NBA guards in bpg and the closest competition in guards? Paul Pierce at 0.6bpg lower and 2 inches taller.
