Are you joking me?Jason Kidd EASILY....Show me another PG that almost AVERAGES a triple double....Jason Kidd is just amazing...It's not just on offense too...He might be the best defensive pg in the League...He is simply great on defense...Great strength, great hands, good lateral quickness....and may also be the smartest PG in the League...His court awareness is off the charts, he doesn't create a bunch of dumb turnovers....he sees everything...reads defenses and angles perfectly...He's an excellent passer...He may not score as much as Baron....but I'd go as far saying that Baron's 3 pt jacking hurts chemistry...He does take a bunch of ill advised shots...you guys can't deny it. Baron is the better scorer, but Jason Kidd dwarfs him at everything else.Not even a debate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 4 2007, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kidd is by far better in almos tevery area outside of scoring. Playmaking, rebounding, defense, leadership, clutch play, decision making, consistency, etc...</div>Really?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kidd is by far better in almos tevery area outside of scoring. Playmaking, rebounding, defense, leadership, clutch play, decision making, consistency, etc...</div>It's not even a contest as to who is more clutch. In the last 5 minutes when the game is within 5 points, Kidd shoots 28% from the field, he gets more turnovers, and his assists drop 20%. On the other hand, Baron raises every stat in the clutch, shooting 48% from the field, 80% from the line, drawing more fouls, and getting about the same amount of assists.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ May 5 2007, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really?</div>Yep. You can throw all the stats you want at me, but the plays he made in the playoffs to carry the team to 2 Finals appearences were huge. Many of the plays he makes don't show up on the stat sheet (especially on the defensive end).<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It's not even a contest as to who is more clutch. In the last 5 minutes when the game is within 5 points, Kidd shoots 28% from the field, he gets more turnovers, and his assists drop 20%. On the other hand, Baron raises every stat in the clutch, shooting 48% from the field, 80% from the line, drawing more fouls, and getting about the same amount of assists.</div>With Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson on the team, the only chances at points he gets in the clutch are with shot clock winding down and he has to jack something up. Both RJ and VC are isolation players, so of course his assists drop. Check from 01-04 to see what he can do as the man in the clutch.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ May 5 2007, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's not even a contest as to who is more clutch. In the last 5 minutes when the game is within 5 points, Kidd shoots 28% from the field, he gets more turnovers, and his assists drop 20%. On the other hand, Baron raises every stat in the clutch, shooting 48% from the field, 80% from the line, drawing more fouls, and getting about the same amount of assists.</div>But how long has that stat been going on? JKidd has been deferring the Vince Carter at the end of games for the past two and a half years. Back in 2002 and 2003, when he was the man, he was playing better clutch defense that Baron Davis, and hitting his fair share of shots (although I don't have a stat).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart? @ May 5 2007, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But how long has that stat been going on? JKidd has been deferring the Vince Carter at the end of games for the past two and a half years. Back in 2002 and 2003, when he was the man, he was playing better clutch defense that Baron Davis, and hitting his fair share of shots (although I don't have a stat).</div>in the 02-03 season kidd shot 29.5% from the field in those situations, averaging 6.9 turnovers per 48 minutes with only 7.6 assists per 48 minutes.In the 03-04 season he shot 29.3% from the field in the clutch, averaging only 8.1 assists per 48 minutes with 6.1 turnovers per 48 minutes.need I continue?
What about when he was on the Suns Pesty? He was our main guy there and he was never clutch at all. He made some nice assists, but clutch scoring was really not his thing. That's kind of why I liked Marbury so much here, he actually helped us win games in the end.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ May 5 2007, 05:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What about when he was on the Suns Pesty? He was our main guy there and he was never clutch at all. He made some nice assists, but clutch scoring was really not his thing. That's kind of why I liked Marbury so much here, he actually helped us win games in the end.</div>unfortunately I don't have these stats before 2003, but I agree with you from subjective viewing that clutch scoring wasn't his thing at any point.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ May 5 2007, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>in the 02-03 season kidd shot 29.5% from the field in those situations, averaging 6.9 turnovers per 48 minutes with only 7.6 assists per 48 minutes.In the 03-04 season he shot 29.3% from the field in the clutch, averaging only 8.1 assists per 48 minutes with 6.1 turnovers per 48 minutes.need I continue?</div>Of course assists are lower in the clutch, the game is far slowed down (and with the Nets of 02-04, they had no go to guy in terms of scoring). Kidd does things that don't show up on the stat sheet, whether it be defensively, forcing a fastbreak, etc... Yesterday was a good example of this. And I don't know where you get your stats or what the criterea is that you use, but the whole 4th quarter, especially in the playoffs, is as big as the final few plays.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 5 2007, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course assists are lower in the clutch, the game is far slowed down (and with the Nets of 02-04, they had no go to guy in terms of scoring). Kidd does things that don't show up on the stat sheet, whether it be defensively, forcing a fastbreak, etc... Yesterday was a good example of this. And I don't know where you get your stats or what the criterea is that you use, but the whole 4th quarter, especially in the playoffs, is as big as the final few plays.</div>the criteria is 5 or less minutes to go with the game within 5 points. That's about as lax as you can get for clutch situations.And as far as I'm concerned, if you're not getting assists, you're shooting atrociously, and you're getting a ridiculous amount of turnovers then it's difficult for you to be more clutch than a guy who thrives on the pressure (Baron), I'm sorry, but a couple supposed defensive stops are not what we're looking for when we say a guy is clutch. Baron averages 26-6-5 per 35 minutes in the clutch, while kidd averages 11-7-7 per 35 minutes in the clutch. I don't care what the intangibles are, they don't make up for a 15 point per 35 minute difference in scoring, especially when a 20% difference in fg% accompanies it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ May 5 2007, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the criteria is 5 or less minutes to go with the game within 5 points. That's about as lax as you can get for clutch situations.And as far as I'm concerned, if you're not getting assists, you're shooting atrociously, and you're getting a ridiculous amount of turnovers then it's difficult for you to be more clutch than a guy who thrives on the pressure (Baron), I'm sorry, but a couple supposed defensive stops are not what we're looking for when we say a guy is clutch. Baron averages 26-6-5 per 35 minutes in the clutch, while kidd averages 11-7-7 per 35 minutes in the clutch. I don't care what the intangibles are, they don't make up for a 15 point per 35 minute difference in scoring, especially when a 20% difference in fg% accompanies it.</div>Not just intangibles, but he leads team in clutch during the playoffs. Take a look at what he did in the playoffs between 01-04. He is simply a leader in clutch situations. If you consider scoring in the clutch more important than every other aspect, then I can see why you'd pick Baron, but Kidd's intangible and clutch playoff play gives him the nod from me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ May 5 2007, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>in the 02-03 season kidd shot 29.5% from the field in those situations, averaging 6.9 turnovers per 48 minutes with only 7.6 assists per 48 minutes.In the 03-04 season he shot 29.3% from the field in the clutch, averaging only 8.1 assists per 48 minutes with 6.1 turnovers per 48 minutes.need I continue?</div>Where are you getting these stats? I've never seen these numbers in my life.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart? @ May 6 2007, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where are you getting these stats? I've never seen these numbers in my life.</div>82games.com son.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart? @ May 6 2007, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I still can't find it </div>http://www.82games.com/0607/06NJN1E.HTMhere's kidd's clutch profile this year
Haha. Where has Baron been the rest of his career?Ofcourse Baron wins in the shooting catagory but every other possible aspect about any type of basketball talent goes to Kidd hands down.One playoff series dosen't make you.
