<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury is definetly #1 PG.... He's turned the knick team all around..</div> Uhm just to remind you, Kidd turned the lottery team Nets into back to back EC champs. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you make em play 1 on 1 of course Marbury will win.</div> You are insulting Kidd's defense with this one. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">marbury, IMO, is the better point gaurd becase he produces more points for the team. stephon averages 20 pts 8.9 asts. kidd averages 15 pts 9.2 asts. marbury produces 37.8 pts and kidd produces 33.4 pts. remember asts equal pts just mutiply the number of asts by two and thats the pts they're worth. there you have it. starburys better. end of story.(marburys also shoots lights out from anywhere on the court and kidd's not consistent with jumpers most of the time)</div> Man I can't believe you said these. Remember, we're talking about PG's so points and assists are not the only issue. IMHO, a PG's greatness wouldn't show in the stat sheet. I would take Kidd who would usually do something like 15 points, 10 assists and 8 rebounds. Why? Because in the process, he'll also run the team by helping KMart get his double double and RJ his 20 points. More importantly, he'll provide stability and get the win.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The thing is that Kidd has been on teams without the Kenyon's and Jefferson's, and he still suceeds and manages to average 9+ assists a game. For the next five years, no one should choose Kidd, Marbury is a lot younger, and Kidd is not a young man anymore.</div> Yeah but the only teams that J.Kidd has been on where the core players around him weren't Athletic type players was the Mavs. And those teams werent that successful despite kidd putting up good # at the point. Granted that team was young & the had a few off court beefs. And alot of injury, but it also had alot to do with the fact that their on court styles clashed Jamal Mashburn & Jim Jackson more ore less wanted to play a half-court game which would give them alot of one on one isolations in the post & on the perimeter where they were most effective. And George McCloud(who became a key player when Mashburn went down in 94'-95') was basically a half-court player, who needed help creating his shot by dribble penetration in the half-court by the PG. So that Dallas team wasnt really filled with players that kidd could make better & win with imo. It was like everybody was playing their own style of basketball in Dallas. And when J.Kidd to PHX in 96', they won but that was because Kevin Johnson was still their primary playmaker in the half-court. So J.Kidd didnt really take over full charge of that team until 97'. And they still played alot of 3 point guard rotation with Johnson(when he was healthy & Nash getting solid minutes off the bench. And by that time they had a Athletic PF in Antonio Mcdyess & transition shooters like Rex Chapman & Dennis Scott, And Cliff Robinson, who at the time was still very vesatile & moible. And Cerdic Ceballos. So that team was surrounded by players who fit kidd's up & down style of play. And after that, thats when guys like Marion, & Penny came to the Suns. Which just conitinued PHX's up & down style, so I can see why people say Kidd wouldnt been that effective on a half-court team. He hasnt really ever had to prove himself on a team where the surrounding players are best fit playing a half-court style. Its like kidd has played his entire carreer around players that are hand picked for his style. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">One more thing is that I think you can make a case that Baron should be the second best PG after Kidd, I'm quite a bit a fan of Marbury's, but Baron is a better all-round player, he can score just as well, can play in the open court or on the break, can shoot, is uo their in passing, and he's a better rebounder, defender, and he's also very good at picking passing lanes</div>. I dont know about this because imo, this is the 1st year where you can realistically put Baron Davis in talks about being top 3 point guards imo. And a large part of that had to do with the fact that his stats were a bit inflated because Mashburn was out, so he got to chuck up a bunch of shots & keep the ball in his hands for most of the 24 second clock without being questioned.
well I love Steph as a plyer but i believe that he cant be truly judged as a player against kid untill he gets a team that fits his style of play as kid is doing great witha team that runs his style. I also thank Kidd is in his prime years at the moment and Starbury is not so its kinda hard to compare them both at the moment. After they both retire hit me up and I'll tell you what I think then. But if I was to make a team today I would probally choose Steph because hes yournger, he scores more, and assists are just a tad under Kidd's which makes Starbury more versatile as a pg/sg than J kidd. I want to see Steph with another pg by his side on the floor at the same time I think that would take pressure off of Steph and then I believe he could really shine.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post"> He hasnt really ever had to prove himself on a team where the surrounding players are best fit playing a half-court style. Its like kidd has played his entire carreer around players that are hand picked for his style. I dont know about this because imo, this is the 1st year where you can realistically put Baron Davis in talks about being top 3 point guards imo. And a large part of that had to do with the fact that his stats were a bit inflated because Mashburn was out, so he got to chuck up a bunch of shots & keep the ball in his hands for most of the 24 second clock without being questioned.</div> Kidd could make me and you great fast break players, all you gotta do is run find an open spot and he'll find you, you did see that commercial where they proved he has eyes in the back of his, didn't you? Baron Davis has been top 3 for a long time already, to me he became top 3 when he outplayed McGrady in the playoffs a couple of years ago, and this year's playoffs forcing a game 7 at 50% health.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post">well I love Steph as a plyer but i believe that he cant be truly judged as a player against kid untill he gets a team that fits his style of play as kid is doing great witha team that runs his style.</div> What exactly is his style? What type of players?
thats my point I dont think Steph has prospered because teams havent exactly figured out his style of play and he cant get to his prime until teams figure this out.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">I can't believe this is even being debated, Kidd is in a league of his own.</div> why do you think that Rudeezy.
I like Starbury but a lot of times he is a shoot first pg,there is nothing wrong with that but I would rather have Kidd because he is a better all around player, he can score a decent amount of points , have ten assist ,and ten rebounds thats is what he is capable of every night,and also he is a good defender and can get you steals, and you know what steals lead to right.Fastbreak points!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting B-22:</div><div class="quote_post">I like Starbury but a lot of times he is a shoot first pg,there is nothing wrong with that but I would rather have Kidd because he is a better all around player, he can score a decent amount of points , have ten assist ,and ten rebounds thats is what he is capable of every night,and also he is a good defender and can get you steals, and you know what steals lead to right.Fastbreak points!</div>yeh those are sweet reasons.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post">why do you think that Rudeezy.</div>Jason Kidd is one of the few great true point guards in this league. There is no question that he makes everyone around him better and elevates their game. Like INWT stated earlier, he took a lottery team to back to back NBA Finals. He is always at the top of the league with Tripe-Doubles. You want more?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">Jason Kidd is one of the few great true point guards in this league. There is no question that he makes everyone around him better and elevates their game. Like INWT stated earlier, he took a lottery team to back to back NBA Finals. He is always at the top of the league with Tripe-Doubles. You want more?</div>nah those are beutiful I was just wandering. u only stated opinion with no back up b 4.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd could make me and you great fast break players, all you gotta do is run find an open spot and he'll find you,</div> Yeah but if thats not the system that we play best in then we probably wont win. Every team in the NBA is not built to run 24/7. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">you did see that commercial where they proved he has eyes in the back of his, didn't you?</div> Yes I seen that commericial, they did a great job of giving kidd his script, he learned it repeated his lines when the director said "Action" and the commericial came out solid. But what does Jason Kidd resighting a bunch of letters have to do with this topic or my point? Everybody know Kidd has great court vision, my point wasnt to say that he didnt. It was to say that J.Kidd has never really had to prove himself on a team that wasnt built to fit his style. But Kidd is clearly the best PG imo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Baron Davis has been top 3 for a long time already, to me he became top 3 when he outplayed McGrady in the playoffs a couple of years ago, and this year's playoffs forcing a game 7 at 50% health.</div> What long time? he came in the league in 99' and backup David Wesley who was a PG then. He took over the starting PG job when Bobby Phills(RIP) died in a car accident before the 00'-01' because the Hornets needed Wesley to move to the 2 guard slot to replace Phills. He put up solid # about 14 & 7, but that far from top 3. The 1st tier of pg top 5 in(00-01) were Kidd, Payton, Stockton, Cassell, & Nash made his 1st statement year as one of the top PG, & you could consider Marbury right outside that top 5 even tho the Nets werent winning. And then that year you had guys like Francis,Van Exel, Terrell Brandon, Mark Jackson, Andre Miller, Armstrong, Bibby was pretty good with the Grizzlies. So Davis wasnt even top 10 let alone top 5 or 3 in 2000-2001. The following season(01'-02') is when Baron Davis really broke out on the NBA level, he made the all-star team. And he had a spectacular playoffs until he ran into J.Kidd & the Nets in the 2nd round. But as far as the full season goes Kidd, Marbury & Payton were clearly better than him. Andre Miller lead the league in a assist that season on a bad Cavs team. And I can agrue that Cassell, Nash, & Stockton had better years than Davis that season too. So he wasnt a top 3 in the league. And in 02'-03' Baron Davis was injured most of the season, he missed at least 30 games due to injury. So how could you consider him top 3 then? So like I said this is the 1st season you can talk about Davis being in the top teir of PG realistically. And that is with inflated stats.
I think he broke into being a top PG in 2001-2002, I don't know about top 3, but he was definately up their in the PG list because he has everything to his game like I explained before. This is his second year not first breaking the ranks, but I just like that he's a better defender and can also get steals which lead to fastbreaks better than Starbury. The best thing about Baron is that he can play with any style, halfcourt, fastbreak, whatever he can play them, and if he wasn't the only capable scorer on the Hornets this year and wasn't always getting injured outta nowhere he'd have done much better. Even though Kidd might now be the greatest at half-court offense, it just seems like he always knows how to get the other players on his teams to score, however it is, and Penny wasn't atheletic anymore when he came to the Suns
Marbury plays on the Knicks and his only scoring option other than himself, KVH was traded away for a fugazy who cant score, yet marubury was still what second in the league in scoring? Who had better scoring options kidd or Marbury? Let Houston come back healthy, and let Nazr establish his game alittle more, and Marbury will lead the league in assits easy. If we still have Kurt Thomas just more icing on marbury's assits stats. Marbury's style is very unselfish yet he will make you pay if you dont D him. Marbury likes to draw double teams and pass the ball out to an open teammate. At the same time he blow past any and I mean any pg in the league at will, so he is going to score as well. He doesnt have the court vision of Kidd, true but he does so many other things. He handles the ball ten times better, he can score in the half court setting, he can shoot, he can create open shots for teammates in a half court setting. He's doesnt rebound as well as Jkidd but there are some sf's and pf's who dont rebound as well as kidd.
I think one of the biggest reasons Kidd has had way more success with the Nets that Marbury did is because Kidd is a fast break PG, so he can get his teammates many points in the fast break, but not as many in the halfcourt. Marbury is the opposite so yeah, you cant really compare. I just cant wait for this next season. The Knicks will finally have chemistry after the off-season and will play better. Also, we might get some more players that can help out. So I cant wait till' next season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah but if thats not the system that we play best in then we probably wont win. Every team in the NBA is not built to run 24/7. Yes I seen that commericial, they did a great job of giving kidd his script, he learned it repeated his lines when the director said "Action" and the commericial came out solid. What long time? And then that year you had guys like Francis,Van Exel, Terrell Brandon, Mark Jackson, Andre Miller, Armstrong, Bibby was pretty good with the Grizzlies. So Davis wasnt even top 10 let alone top 5 or 3 in 2000-2001. But as far as the full season goes Kidd, Marbury & Payton were clearly better than him. Andre Miller lead the league in a assist that season on a bad Cavs team. And I can agrue that Cassell, Nash, & Stockton had better years than Davis that season too. So he wasnt a top 3 in the league. And in 02'-03' Baron Davis was injured most of the season, he missed at least 30 games due to injury. So how could you consider him top 3 then? So like I said this is the 1st season you can talk about Davis being in the top teir of PG realistically. And that is with inflated stats.</div> Kidd will make it the system... I was kidding with the commercial... Long time since the playoff series against the Magic where I think he averaged a triple double, or close to it... It's been 3 seasons to me that have seen Davis as a top 3 PG... Not 2000-2001, although I'd consider him better than Miller, Van Exel, Brandon, Jackson, Armstrong, Bibby, even at that time... He had a great playoff year then too... 2001-2002 Payton and Kidd were better, Marbury and Davis had comparable stats but the Hornets won more and made the playoffs... In 2002-2003 he was injured, this season Kidd was injured, he's still the top point in the league... I've considered him a top point for years because for years now his talent has been there, he's been winning for years, he's been the MVP of the Hornets for years, and he's been clutch in the playoffs for years. This past season was the first that the rest of the NBA world has noticed, could of made a good run at the MVP had he stayed healthy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jmonty580:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury plays on the Knicks and his only scoring option other than himself, KVH was traded away for a fugazy who cant score, yet marubury was still what second in the league in scoring? Who had better scoring options kidd or Marbury? Marbury's style is very unselfish yet he will make you pay if you dont D him. Marbury likes to draw double teams and pass the ball out to an open teammate.</div> Van Horn was traded because of Marbury... Tim Thomas can't score? Sure he can, he just needs the ball longer than Marbury likes to let anyone else have it... Penny could still score as well, again needs the ball... Marbury's style is anything but unselfish, I wish I could find a site that records time of possessiong I bet anything Marbury would be leading it, because all he does is hold it until he needs to pass it or he shoots it himself... Come on now, he's been close to the league lead in assists and usually shoots more than any other PG in the league, and he keeps losing with that style yet still demands it, that's selfish! <div class="quote_poster">Quoting keyindabox:</div><div class="quote_post">I think one of the biggest reasons Kidd has had way more success with the Nets that Marbury did is because Kidd is a fast break PG, so he can get his teammates many points in the fast break, but not as many in the halfcourt. The Knicks will finally have chemistry after the off-season and will play better. Also, we might get some more players that can help out. So I cant wait till' next season.</div> Kidd is fine in the half court, by comparison his play in the half court looks bad against his play in the fast break, but it's not bad. Did the Suns ever have chemistry with Marbury? How about the Nets? No and no. The future looks bleak for the Knicks, UNLESS, Marbury goes through a serious attitude adjustment this offseason...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Van Horn was traded because of Marbury... Tim Thomas can't score? Sure he can, he just needs the ball longer than Marbury likes to let anyone else have it... Penny could still score as well, again needs the ball... Marbury's style is anything but unselfish, I wish I could find a site that records time of possessiong I bet anything Marbury would be leading it, because all he does is hold it until he needs to pass it or he shoots it himself... Come on now, he's been close to the league lead in assists and usually shoots more than any other PG in the league, and he keeps losing with that style yet still demands it, that's selfish! Kidd is fine in the half court, by comparison his play in the half court looks bad against his play in the fast break, but it's not bad. Did the Suns ever have chemistry with Marbury? How about the Nets? No and no. The future looks bleak for the Knicks, UNLESS, Marbury goes through a serious attitude adjustment this offseason...</div> Serious attitude adjustment? Well I didnt wanna bring stuff like this up because its not on topic, but wasn't Kidd the one who wanted Scott out of New Jersey? That seems selfish to me. Whatever man. You're the first person who I have seen/heard say that Knicks future looks bleak with Marbury. But hey, everyone has their own opinions, so w/e...
