<div class="quote_poster">Quoting keyindabox:</div><div class="quote_post">Serious attitude adjustment? Well I didnt wanna bring stuff like this up because its not on topic, but wasn't Kidd the one who wanted Scott out of New Jersey?</div> You have to accept the fact that superstars have a say in these kind of things. Besides, the Nets AS A TEAM lost their respect to Scott. It's not as if Kidd was the only one. With attitude adjustment, I think he meant his attitude inside the court. You know, his winning attitude and all that. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting keyindabox:</div><div class="quote_post"> That seems selfish to me. Whatever man. You're the first person who I have seen/heard say that Knicks future looks bleak with Marbury. But hey, everyone has their own opinions, so w/e...</div> You know what, better make me the second one to say that. Look at all the teams that Starbury has played for. Min, NJ, PHX and now the NYK. They all have common denominators. Losing games, disgruntled teammates etc. But as a disclaimer. I honestly believe that Starbury has what it takes to be a great PG. He just needs to embrace a team concept. Averaging high assists doesn't necessarily mean that you've embraced a team. But you have to be able to run a team like a well- oiled machine.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting keyindabox:</div><div class="quote_post">Serious attitude adjustment? Well I didnt wanna bring stuff like this up because its not on topic, but wasn't Kidd the one who wanted Scott out of New Jersey? That seems selfish to me. Whatever man. You're the first person who I have seen/heard say that Knicks future looks bleak with Marbury. But hey, everyone has their own opinions, so w/e...</div> Talk about Kidd when Marbury has gotten plenty of coaches fired, I mean has he ever had the same coach for more than 18 straight months? The Nets were underachieving with Scott, if Kidd thought a change was neccessary for the Nets to get better than so be it, they did get A LOT better with Doogie Howser. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">I honestly believe that Starbury has what it takes to be a great PG. He just needs to embrace a team concept.</div> Talent wise, it's obvious that he does, he just doesn't value winning as the #1 goal, that's why he can't trust his teammates, couldn't even trust them in Phoenix and they had plenty of talent there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">[quote name='RocketLaunch']Kidd will make it the system... I was kidding with the commercial... Long time since the playoff series against the Magic where I think he averaged a triple double, or close to it... </div> You cant put a point guard in the top 3 because of one (1st round) playoff series if he wasnt their before imo. Darrell Armstrong( who was a great pressure defender) but was always to small to guard bigger scoring point guards in the league. And Mcgrady doesnt really play any defense, so that backcourt Davis put those # against had alot of flaws defensively, so you have to take that into consideration. if he would have outplayed kidd in the 2nd round when they met that year I would give alot more credit to that playoff run. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's been 3 seasons to me that have seen Davis as a top 3 PG... Not 2000-2001, although I'd consider him better than Miller, Van Exel, Brandon, Jackson, Armstrong, Bibby, even at that time... He had a great playoff year then too...</div> In 2000-01, those PG were better than Davis imo. Davis was a 13,7, & 5 point guard with weak effiency #'s. And in the 01' playoffs he went up against Tim Hardaway, who was fighting a serious back injury. And had a hard time staying on the floor due to lack of moblity, so realistically he was balling against Anthony Carter & Eddie House in that series. Not your cream of the crop at the pg spot to say the least. And in the 2nd round he was pretty up & down vs the Bucks. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2001-2002 Payton and Kidd were better, Marbury and Davis had comparable stats but the Hornets won more and made the playoffs... In 2002-2003 he was injured, this season Kidd was injured, he's still the top point in the league...</div> Davis had a slight edge in assist but Marbury had more points & much better effeincy #'s. The Suns didnt make the playoffs in 2001-02,because they didnt have a bigman to speak of, Tom Gugiliotta was the only skilled bigman on their roster with some size & he missed half the season due to injury. Bo Outlaw great hustle player but doesnt bring nothing to the table as far as skills & was undersized for a western PF, which meant that the Suns had to count on guys like John Wallace & the two Jakes'(Voskul & tSakalidis) for low post points that just isnt going to get it done. The only team in the West to make the playoffs that year without a legitimate all-star caliber PF or Center was the Sonics. And they still had Vin Baker, who was a former all-star, and was good for about 15 & 7, a few double-doubles here & there. So the Suns didnt make playoffs because they didnt have the big body needed to be competive. Kidd never going to lose his spot because of injury due to the fact that he has been one of the top pg's since the mid 90's. Davis is just in his 5th season( his 4th was the injury filled year). So he has't put in Kidd type years for his spot to be secure. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I've considered him a top point for years because for years now his talent has been there</div> Talent alone doesnt put a player in the top 3 at his position. We all know davis has had talent since UCLA. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he's been winning for years, he's been the MVP of the Hornets for years, and he's been clutch in the playoffs for years.</div> Yeah he has been winning for years, its not like they were ever championship contenders. They play about .500 ball every year, make the playoffs and lose in either the 1st or 2nd round. I mean that isnt great success or anything. Well I think Jamal Mashburn should get some credit as well & David Wesley too because he help build the foundation for this current hornets team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This past season was the first that the rest of the NBA world has noticed, could of made a good run at the MVP had he stayed healthy.</div> Eactly thats why I said this was his first year he could be mentioned in talks about top3 because he was much healthier & more productive.
starbury scores more points and is more effcient on offence,passing or assists are equally same. but jkidd is known for the passing,not the scoring,and he makes great plays,(not that marbury doesnt).
how about we let marbury earn the name starbury. i know he is a great talent, but he really isnt a superstar yet. superstars are made in the playoffs and superstars have success. regular season means nothing b/c everyone has at least one good reg season. i also understand that it fits in with marbury and rhymes, but im a believer that you have to earn what you get. people are just giving him this name and praise when he really hasnt earned it. im not a marbury hater and will never be one, but i just dont think that he should be getting all this praise for having a losing career. he is young so he has time, when he gets at least to the conference finals and maybe wins a series himself he would earn the starbury nickname,but he hasnt and i dont think he should just be given the name. i know everyone will still call him that b/c he has his fans out there and its a catchy name and its good business to market a name like that, but its was just something i've wanted to get off my chest. ah, i feel better now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting throwback:</div><div class="quote_post">....but its was just something i've wanted to get off my chest. ah, i feel better now.</div>
I'm going to go with Marbury as the better pure point gaurd and Kidd as the better all around player. Kidd is like in third in all time triple doubles(correct me if im wrong i thought i heard that somewhere) while Marbury is up there with the Big O to be the only other player to average 20+ career points and 8+ career assists. Marbury is the better point gaurd in my view.
[quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> ...so that backcourt Davis put those # against had alot of flaws defensively, so you have to take that into consideration...</div> Averaging a triple double in the playoffs is great no matter who's playing defense... [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> In 2000-01, those PG were better than Davis imo. Davis was a 13,7, & 5 point guard with weak effiency #'s.</div> My bad on 2000-2001, I mistaked it for 01-02... [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Suns didnt make the playoffs in 2001-02,because they didnt have a bigman to speak of, Tom Gugiliotta was the only skilled bigman on their roster with some size & he missed half the season due to injury. Bo Outlaw great hustle player but doesnt bring nothing to the table as far as skills & was undersized for a western PF, which meant that the Suns had to count on guys like John Wallace & the two Jakes'(Voskul & tSakalidis) for low post points that just isnt going to get it done.</div> The season before that Gugliata missed a lot of games as well and they still won 50 games, with only Clifford Robinson and Rodney Rogers, they're not low post threats. Bo Outlaw rules man, players like him do all the little things that usually contribute greatly to winning teams. Tsakalidis missed more games the season before and Voskul wasn't even on the Suns, it's not like the Sun team of the year before had awesome low post players, Kidd was the only difference, 25 win difference. [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The only team in the West to make the playoffs that year without a legitimate all-star caliber PF or Center was the Sonics.</div> The Suns were the only one the year before that... And the year before that... Again, Kidd was the only difference... [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Talent alone doesnt put a player in the top 3 at his position. We all know davis has had talent since UCLA..</div> That's true, but talent + winning can... [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yeah he has been winning for years, its not like they were ever championship contenders. They play about .500 ball every year, make the playoffs and lose in either the 1st or 2nd round. I mean that isnt great success or anything.</div> Well that's A LOT more than Marbury can say his teams have done... [quote name='Henacy']<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well I think Jamal Mashburn should get some credit as well & David Wesley too because he help build the foundation for this current hornets team.</div> Even though Mashburn is a bum he can get some credit, Wesley deserves more, but Davis deserves the most...
I think J. Kidd gets tha nod over Starbury simply because he is the ultimate PG- he scores, rebounds and passes and has great leadership and court vision...he's also a winner, and has proven himself as such, which is something Starbury has yet to do...I think Marbury is a great PG and easily top 5, but J-Kidd is top 3, IMO...
I would pick Starbury because he is a way better scorer and a slightly not as talented at assists than JKidd
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">season before that Gugliata missed a lot of games as well and they still won 50 games, with only Clifford Robinson and Rodney Rogers, they're not low post threats. Bo Outlaw rules man, players like him do all the little things that usually contribute greatly to winning teams. Tsakalidis missed more games the season before and Voskul wasn't even on the Suns, it's not like the Sun team of the year before had awesome low post players, Kidd was the only difference, 25 win difference</div>. Yes your right Kidd for Marbury was the major change but Robinson & Rogers were very versatile inside/out big bodies, so you could do alot of things on offense with them that you couldnt do with stationary bodies like Tsakalidis & Voskul. Voskul was on the suns during Steph's 1st year with them in 01'-02'. But anyway... The loss of Rogers & Cliff Robinson about 30pts combined. And alot of floor spacing because of the shooting range those 2 had for their size. And lets not forget the versatilty Robinson brought to the table on defense. He could guard alot of different type of forwards. Their was also a complete change in bench througout that season Steph came in. And a coaching change. . <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well that's A LOT more than Marbury can say his teams have done... Even though Mashburn is a bum he can get some credit, Wesley deserves more, but Davis deserves the most...</div> Yeah but you cant realistically compare what Marbury has had to go thru with teams to what Davis has had. The Hornets were a winning system before Davis took over the major role at PG. So it was like a smooth transition as his role expanded on the Hornets. On the other hand Steph had to be the man & make the system right off the bat every where he went. When Steph got drafted to the Wolves they were a relatively young franchise period, Flip Saunders was just really just taking over as head coach, so that team really had no direction besides the fact that KG was showing some signs of being their future. So Steph was thrown right into the fire, I mean terry Porter was their to help guid him but for the most part he had to learn on the fly while trying to get wins. Unlike Davis who got time to develope off the bench his rookie year, on a team that won close to 50 games. And then when Steph got traded to my Nets during the lockout season, he was once again going to a team that was in a transition period for their Franchise. The Nets had expected big things from the team that was there before Steph arrived but the injuries to Cassell & a few other core members changed that. Which meant Steph was once again thrown into a losing situation.And expected to be the man right off the bat. Granted part of the reason Steph got traded was his own doing due to the fact he didnt really want to take a fall back role to KG. And of course we already talk about the change over from the Kidd to steph era in PHX. And we all know the type of situation this Knick franchise was in when he got traded back home. So yes alot of the losing Steph has suffered was brought on by himself. But you have to admit that he was never really put in any situation where he could really win right off the bat maybe PHX. While Davis entered a winning envoriment & basically just kept the trend going.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">. The loss of Rogers & Cliff Robinson about 30pts combined. And alot of floor spacing because of the shooting range those 2 had for their size. And lets not forget the versatilty Robinson brought to the table on defense. He could guard alot of different type of forwards. So it was like a smooth transition as his role expanded on the Hornets. And then when Steph got traded to my Nets during the lockout season, he was once again going to a team that was in a transition period for their Franchise. The Nets had expected big things from the team that was there before Steph arrived but the injuries to Cassell & a few other core members changed that. Which meant Steph was once again thrown into a losing situation.And expected to be the man right off the bat. So yes alot of the losing Steph has suffered was brought on by himself. But you have to admit that he was never really put in any situation where he could really win right off the bat maybe PHX.</div> -Kidd, Robinson, and Rogers, +Marbury, Outlaw, Voskul, Johnson = -25 wins?? The Suns were a proud franchise, always winning, always making the playoffs, something like 15 straight seasons, Marbury gets there and they become a horrible team, Kidd would of kept that tradition going. True, Davis did come into a winning franchise, Marbury went to one in Phoenix as well... Despite those injuries the Nets still finished over .500 and made the playoffs the year before Marbury got there to... I find it hard to believe that a Net fan would defend Marbury, he never won anything there, he was a punk, what did he write on his shoes? I stand alone? He didn't go into a losing situation there, they had talent that won the year before... What type of situation do you expect him to go to? Championship contender or what?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">-Kidd, Robinson, and Rogers, +Marbury, Outlaw, Voskul, Johnson = -25 wins?? The Suns were a proud franchise, always winning, always making the playoffs, something like 15 straight seasons, Marbury gets there and they become a horrible team, Kidd would of kept that tradition going.</div> Kidd probably would have kept the tradition going, your right but his departure led to alot of change, PHX tried to put a team around Marbury that better fit Marbury's style but while doing that they gave up some keep parts which left Marbury with some non-productive parts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True, Davis did come into a winning franchise, Marbury went to one in Phoenix as well</div> Yes PHX was a winning Franchise, but they were experincing alot of change over during the Kidd-Marbury switch. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Despite those injuries the Nets still finished over .500 and made the playoffs the year before Marbury got there to...</div> Yes we made the playoffs in 97'-98(my favorite Nets team of all-time by the way ) but anyway.... players came in to the lockout season(98'-99) in very poor shape. Cassell got injured the 1st week of the season vs the Hawks. And thats why the Nets traded him in a three way deal for Marbury at that special trade deadline date because he was expected to be out the rest of the season. And coach Calipari was making a big stink about how the Nets need a pg, so the Franchise could keep the success from 97'-98' going. Marbury was having contract & other problems in Minn, so the best thing was to bring the hometown area kid, back home. So the Nets worked out the three way deal with the Bucks & Wolves. But 20 games after Marbury arrived him & Jayson Williams fall down on each other after going after the same rebound. Their goes the career of our all-star Center. So during the Lockout season the Nets had to have a change over in point guard, they lost their all-star center, & the coach(john Calipari) who led them to the playoffs the year before got the boot. So that three key parts of the Nets playoff team gone right there. Now lets fast forward to the start of Marbury 1st full season with the Nets. I dont count the Lockout season as his 1st full season, because every team played like 50 games that year & Marbury go traded for during some special trade deadline they had so realistically he only played 30 something games with the Nets that year. But anyway fast forward to 99'-00... The Nets during the off season bring in Jim Mcalivine, Jamie Fieck & draft Evan Eshmeyer to replace the heart of the team. And a guy who was giving the Nets a double- double every night. Not exactly the step in the right direct as far as replacing your all-star big. And then shortly in to the Nets 99'-00 campaign Sherman Douglas our locker room leader & key contributer to the Nets playoff run in 97'-98, goes down to a season ending knee surgery( he returns to the Nets in 2000'01 season but never really was the same). So that the 4 key part to the Nets playoff run to go down. Then the Nets go threw some smaller injuries Van Horn misses time, Gill misses time but nothing to serious. The Next big Injury occurs after the All-star break Kerry Kittles goes down & requires surgery which of course ends his season. And he never plays for the Nets again during the Steph Marbury era. Now thats # 5 from the Nets playoff run to go down during The Steph era. All key members. Now lets get to 2000'-01, the Nets are already without their Starting Center, Starting 2 guard & guess who goes down next Kendall Gill, yes, you got it correct never to play for the Nets again. Now that 4 out of the 5 starters from the Nets playoff run gone due to injury or trade & one key bench player. And then who goes down Keith Van Horn of course he had to join the rest of his teamates on the injury list, he misses 30+ games in 2000'-01. Now that means that all 5 starters form the season before steph took over are now down & out to major injuries. Yes teams face injuries but not injuries like that in that short spand of time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I find it hard to believe that a Net fan would defend Marbury</div>, Well Iam not really defending Marbury per say. Iam just bring in to the debate since everyone is knocking him for losing, that yes alot of it was brought on by some of his choices, but he was never really put in the situation to let his talents shine completely on a team that had a legit chance to win. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he never won anything there, he was a punk, what did he write on his shoes? I stand alone?</div> Yes most def Steph didnt handle his role in the losing very well. And thats probably the main thing I lost respect for him for, was when he sat out the last 12 games saying he was injured yet everybody knew he wasnt. But there was also alot of personality clashes that the world didnt really hear about. Like Kenyon Martin questioning his(Marbury) leadership to front office people behind the scene while only being a rookie. I would think that would be hard for a point guard to take, Or Van Horn going to the players complianing about shots, yet all he wanted to do was stand behind the 3pt line. Or Stephen Jackson, I got love but his hot selection use to be horrible. Or Gill making complaints from the injured list. I dont agree with Marbury at all but he was a man alone. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He didn't go into a losing situation there, they had talent that won the year before</div> Yes but all that talent end up on the injured list. Iam the 1st one to Steph has alot to learn about winning, he still has to learn the balance between making himself a great player & making the players around him better. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What type of situation do you expect him to go to? Championship contender or what?</div> No Iam not a Marbury surporter like that to care about where he goes or doesnt go. But as a basketball fan I have followed this cat for along time & I do know what he is capable of. And I think that with him being in New York know under 2 hall of fame guards, who found the balance between their own indiviual talents & the talents of their team, is really the 1st place Steph has been that has a bright light at the end of the tunnel, for him & his team to both succeed.
Definitely Kidd. He's the better player overall if you ask me. However I may be bias as I know that Kidd is a nice guy and a much nicer guy in comparison to Starbury so that may also affect my chosen comment and side. However, the only shoot first, pass second PG's I really like are Cassell, Francis and B Dizzle and I guess for the moment although I feel he's playing out of position, Wade. People say Starbury has an awesome game, I've never really liked it personally. He's gutless if you ask me, he can drive and take it the hole hard, so what? He's not a winner like Kidd is, if you were to choose someone as a leader and someone who could make you win, the answer is Kidd. Put Kidd on the Knicks and he'd do better for them.
