Exactly, thats what Im saying.JJ was having a monster season before the injuries, I guess people dont realize how good he really is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ May 12 2007, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why do you guys ride Paul Pierce so high? Hes only lead his team to a 40+ win season 3 times in his career and twice 45+. How could he be a MVP candidate, he has so much to prove to be that high.</div> Such a dumb argument.Paul Pierce has nothing to prove, he's a top 20 player that been largely held back by poor team management. You can't blame Pierce for the lack of success....he's been the only thing keeping that team afloat the last few years.
Yeah I've watched Joe a lot..he was on the Celtics briefly. Ugh we traded him..dumbass thing to do. He would of been great alongside Pierce given the minutes and the chance to shine.I just think that nobody notices Joe because he plays for the shittiest team ever, the Atlanta Hawks who mainly get players because they're flashy. No offense to Josh Smith or Marvin Williams but they are not great offensive players and are not guys you build around. Josh Smith though is really good and I liked that pick by them. But eh I wouldn't of taken Marvin Williams at 2, they could of had better.Once JJ was given his own team he was able to be the man. He is the man now and is a great all-star caliber player. BUT I think Pierce is a better player than him and has proven what he can do year in and year out. Have you guys watched this guy in the clutch? Even Billups, one of the most clutch players in the game rates him in his top 5 clutch performers. This seasons stats are flawed because he only played 40-something games due to injury. He's never had an incomplete season before. He misses 1 or 2 games at most per year. He's one of the most durable players in the game.Like somebody said, he's led his team farther in the playoffs than some of the "franchise players" in the game today.Tracy McGradyLebron JamesCarmelo AnthonyChris BoshGilbert Arenas etc etc.The guy is a proven player and a proven superstar and a proven franchise player. Whoever said he isn't a "franchise player" is ignorant. Joe Johnson has only been playing at this level for 2 seasons. He has yet to lead his team to the playoffs (I don't blame him though) let alone outside of the 5 worst records in the NBA. Pierce is a more accomplished player and a better player overall.
Hes more accomplished, but not better overall IMO. I think there even in how good they are. Joe Johnson is playing for a bad team, but PP is playing for a worse team. So you cant really factor that. Not to mention JJ probably hasnt hit prime. No doubt Paul Pierce is a top 20 player, but I think JJ is right there with him, not better or worse.Btw, ATL picking up Josh Smith was a complete steal. They got him at 17 didnt they?
Pierce has barely hit his prime last year..he had last year in it then this year..but it was wasted by injury.Watch the guy next year and tell me Joe Johnson is a better overall player. Trust me..I was at a game earlier in the season before the injuries and before all the losing. This guy was in the best shape of his life, shooting 3's the best of his life and playing the best basketball of his life.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ May 12 2007, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Exactly, thats what Im saying.JJ was having a monster season before the injuries, I guess people dont realize how good he really is.</div>He had a monster season on a basement team. Johnson has never carried a team to the playoffs, much less advanced them to the conference finals. Pierce has. That's the difference. Until Johnson can prove he's capable of doing that he's not comparable because he's just putting up numbers while losing games. By that logic Shareef-Abdur Rahim was as good if not better than Scottie Pippen in the late 90's. Lookup the numbers.
I take Pierce, but Johnson is not far behind at all. Joe has alot of versatility, he can play the point, or any of the wing positions. He's a better passer than Pierce, imo. If you look at this years stats, his assist numbers were down, because he wasn't playing point anymore for us. His first year with us he was forced to play that because we lack any talent at all at the PG position. I like how everyones like, Joe hasn't carried his team anywhere, so until then - he is not at Pierce's level. He was in the playoffs with the Suns, before he came to Atlanta. The whole team is like under the age of 26, so lets not crticize Joe and his inability to carry the fricking Hawks to playoffs. Clearly, when Pierce has made it to the playoffs, his teammates were far superior to Joe's teammates now. I think they are very similiar but I still take Pierce RIGHT now.
JJ has never had a chance to carry a team. And NOBODY EVER carries a team. It never happens unless its in a quarter or a half. Why didint PP carry his team last season in 05-06? I know he had injuries this season. PP has never carried the Boston, when they were good, he had very good help.JJ is just as good, and im not saying from the stats cause im not a stat guy, you can see when he plays hes just as good.But its not making any sense to argue this anymore, most Boston fans are too stubborn to see reality and actually realize a player can be better than a Boston player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ May 12 2007, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why didint PP carry his team last season in 05-06?</div> 2nd year Delonte West Ricky Davis traded for Wally, who got hurt and couldn't finish the year 2nd year/hurt/unproven Al Jefferson Hurt Tony Allen Rookie/raw/D-League Gerald Green Raef the F*ck LaFrentz Orien Greene = backup PG Replace Pierce/Doc with Kobe/Phil, they still would suck.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (austingriz @ May 12 2007, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>JJ has never had a chance to carry a team. And NOBODY EVER carries a team. It never happens unless its in a quarter or a half. Why didint PP carry his team last season in 05-06? I know he had injuries this season. PP has never carried the Boston, when they were good, he had very good help.JJ is just as good, and im not saying from the stats cause im not a stat guy, you can see when he plays hes just as good.But its not making any sense to argue this anymore, most Boston fans are too stubborn to see reality and actually realize a player can be better than a Boston player.</div>I'm pretty sure nobody was stopping JJ from putting Atlanta on his back this year and carrying them to the playoffs if he could do it. Rodney Rogers, Kenny Anderson, Tony Delk, Tony Battie, and Antione Walker are "great help"? He missed half the season. It's hard to carry a team when you're not even on the court, and then when you come back management purposely loses games. Nobody ever carries a team? That's absurd. So the Lakers would still be decent this year without Kobe? I don''t think so. I'm stubborn? All you've claimed is that JJ is better because he looks like it when you see him play while we have presented multiple arguments explaining why Paul is more proven and capable of leading a team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Living_Legend33 @ May 12 2007, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm pretty sure nobody was stopping JJ from putting Atlanta on his back this year and carrying them to the playoffs if he could do it. Rodney Rogers, Kenny Anderson, Tony Delk, Tony Battie, and Antione Walker are "great help"? He missed half the season. It's hard to carry a team when you're not even on the court, and then when you come back management purposely loses games. Nobody ever carries a team? That's absurd. So the Lakers would still be decent this year without Kobe? I don''t think so. I'm stubborn? All you've claimed is that JJ is better because he looks like it when you see him play while we have presented multiple arguments explaining why Paul is more proven and capable of leading a team.</div>JJ also sat out alot of games towards the season, most likely so we could lose.. Kobe Bryant one of the best players to ever live, playing under one of the best coaches to ever live. If you took Joe Johnson or Paul Pierce away from their teams they would be worse than the Lakers without Kobe. JJ has had two years to lead a crumby young, horribly coached team to the playoffs. Paul is more proven, and I'm not disagreeing with you on whose better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingjamez @ May 12 2007, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>JJ also sat out alot of games towards the season, most likely so we could lose.. Kobe Bryant one of the best players to ever live, playing under one of the best coaches to ever live. If you took Joe Johnson or Paul Pierce away from their teams they would be worse than the Lakers without Kobe. JJ has had two years to lead a crumby young, horribly coached team to the playoffs. Paul is more proven, and I'm not disagreeing with you on whose better.</div>Well the Lakers without Kobe are better than the Celtics and Hawks without their top guys. The point I was just making there is that individual players do carry teams.
Kobe isnt carrying his team, but just cause your the star doesn't mean your carrying the team. Paul Pierce is very good, but I just htink he and JJ are about the same as of now. Sure PP is more proven, but seeing them both play, individualy, I think they are neither better or worse than the other.
Joe Johnson is also one of the most underrated clutch performers out there.. Its unbelievable what he does towards the end of games, much like PP.
Paul Pierce when not playing on the Boston Celtics....18-game losing streakJoe Johnson when not playing on the Atlanta Hawks....8-13Pierce can do everything Johnson can just on a more important/higher level. The Hawks can still manage to win a game without Joe Johnson, the Boston Celtics are an absolute mess without Pierce.
Its Pierce because of all the reasons said here obviously. I can only see JJ have a good comparision with Pierce if Pierce is injured and JJ is healthy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinoy Balla @ May 13 2007, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I can only see JJ have a good comparision with Pierce if Pierce is injured and JJ is healthy</div>What?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 12 2007, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Such a dumb argument.Paul Pierce has nothing to prove, he's a top 20 player that been largely held back by poor team management. You can't blame Pierce for the lack of success....he's been the only thing keeping that team afloat the last few years.</div>Im not saying he has to prove anything. But you yourself know hes not a MVP candidate. I didnt say he doesn't have any potential. But his credentials dont reflect that.
Celtics record without Paul Pierce was 4-31Celtics record with Paul Pierce was 20-27Sure they may not have been that great but he was playing slow and out of shape for most of the games when he was "back" after the injury and they were CONSIDERABLY better when he was on the floor. He was among the league leaders in game winning shots when he was playing and he's second in the league in game winning assists behind Steve Nash. The guy is one of the top 15-20 players in the league and when he's at his best is one of the most explosive scorers in the league. He's a proven player and Joe Johnson isn't.How is he not an MVP candidate? He was one of the more overlooked MVP candidates last year but because of the lack of experience on the team they lost a lot of games. He can't do EVERYTHING as much as you think every superstar player can. It doesn't work like that.And how do his "credentials" not reflect that? He's led his team to the ECF and in one of those games score 19 points in the 4th quarter to cap off the largest 4th quarter comeback in NBA playoffs history.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ May 15 2007, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Celtics record without Paul Pierce was 4-31Celtics record with Paul Pierce was 20-27Sure they may not have been that great but he was playing slow and out of shape for most of the games when he was "back" after the injury and they were CONSIDERABLY better when he was on the floor. He was among the league leaders in game winning shots when he was playing and he's second in the league in game winning assists behind Steve Nash. The guy is one of the top 15-20 players in the league and when he's at his best is one of the most explosive scorers in the league. He's a proven player and Joe Johnson isn't.How is he not an MVP candidate? He was one of the more overlooked MVP candidates last year but because of the lack of experience on the team they lost a lot of games. He can't do EVERYTHING as much as you think every superstar player can. It doesn't work like that.And how do his "credentials" not reflect that? He's led his team to the ECF and in one of those games score 19 points in the 4th quarter to cap off the largest 4th quarter comeback in NBA playoffs history.</div>Im not arguing that he should have never been a MVP candidate. My arguement is that we have to wait until he is healthy to see if he is truly an MVP candidate. Paul hasnt been in action for a while now, if he wins his division again, I wouldnt putting him 3-5th on my MVP ballot.
