<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You don't need evidence. That explains quite a lot. Regardless of what actually happens, you've already made up your mind.</div> Outside of the first month, Howard's returned back to his old self. He's scoring, rebounding & defending. Theres ur evidence. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck's been consistently playing 20-25 MPG throughout the season. He's playing an important role. And Howard's play, the poor play of Padgett/Novak, and injuries to McGrady/Yao have forced JVG to play Juwan more, to be more exact. </div> Not exactly...that's intenionally false. Howard's been playin because Hayes's can't stay on the court (excessive hacking), and being that Hayes is a LIABILITY on offense, we gotta get some offense in there. Injuries is a small factor, but Howard was playin good before they happened. If you can recall, he hit some HUGE shots for us earlier in the season. Howard has outplayed Hayes/Padgett/Novak and even the stubborn JVG can't deny this. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How many ways, outside of scoring, is Howard better than Chuck Hayes? As I see it: Juwan's a better scorer, ball-handler, and passer. I feel that Juwan also has better stamina (since his role isn't to be an "energizer bunny" like Chuck), so he's capable of playing 40 MPG if necessary. Chuck's a better rebounder (particularly on the offensive glass), a better screener, and a better and more versatile defender. </div> How do you judge screening? If you actually watched the last game, Tmac gotta 4pt play off an incredible screen from Juwan Howard. I don't think Hayes is a better defender either, bein that he's always sending his player to the line. Alot of that stuff is overhyped by you guys. Howard's the better overrall player and if ur smart you'd prolly not wanna debate this with me. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Right now, Juwan is on a hot streak offensively and he's definitely outplaying Chuck. But inevitably he'll cool off, at which point I think Chuck's defensive versatility, rebounding, and all-around hustle can benefit the team much more.</div> I definatley agree with ur assement ....Howard is outplayin Hayes. Everytime Howard hits a shot, I can't help but think about how right I was before the season Basically he's doin his job. Nothin special, just scoring, rebounding, defending and being the ultimate professional. U guys underestimated his importance, and now I think ur finally comin back to reality. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also while Yao is out, Juwan is going to get more scoring opportunities (and right now he's really taking advantage of it and playing with high efficiency). When Yao returns and with McGrady also in the lineup, Juwan's role as a scorer will be significantly reduced. That's why I feel Chuck is a better complimentary player to those two; and it's why I've been saying since last season that I think Chuck's a better fit in the starting lineup, while Juwan can do most damage in the second unit when he has more opportunities to score. I still think that's the case.</div> I expect for Howard to excel in the system regardless. He's obviously the best true powerfoward on our team, and he's outplayed everybody at that position. It's halarious to hear you backtrack on ur positions, ur argument has been regulated to just starting line ups now All of sudden, ur tellin me Hayes can't excel because Yao's injured If he's a good player like you hyped him up to be, why would somebody else effect his play? Wouldn't he be effective regardless? Juwan Howard sure is............
Rock4life, the fact that you can't take facts objectively shows that it is ultimately pointless to argue with you. You have the mentality that you are right, and everything else anyone (even though statistics back it up) is irrelavent. I have yet to see you make ONE OBJECTIVE statment. This statement just shows how little of a right you have to argue. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Everytime Howard hits a shot, I can't help but think about how right I was before the season </div> You only feed off what juwan does well. You only see the good points and ignore all the bad points. Just for argument I want to see you list objectively what the pro's and con's are of both Juwan and Chuck. Not pros of Juwan and Con's of Chuck (which you have been repeatedly doing). All us Chuck lovers, acknowledge what his weaknesses are. We don't delude ourselves, and we don't ignore other facts. You on the other hand seem to ignore anythign that proves your argument false. Don't say we don't acknowledge Hayes' faults. Its because of his faults that makes Hayes such a wonderful player. He is an undersized powerforward with no post or midrange game. The fact that he IMPROVES our offense (yes thats right, improves) despite these deficiencies is why are fans (not to mention his defense). Yes Howard can score, but Hayes makes it much easier for our superstars to score. It is why he starts with Yao and Mcgrady. You don't need another scoring option out there. You need someone that makes it easier for our STARS TO SCORE. This is why Howard is much more effective coming off the bench when Yao and Mac are resting. Would you rather have Hayes start with Yao and Mac and Howard providing the scoring off the bench, or Howard starting with Yao and Mac (and scoring much less). Time and time again you say Hayes is an offensive liability, yet you do nothing to look outside of individual scoring. You seem to concentrate only on JHo. I notice when we say something bad on JHo (like defence), you pick one instance where he rips the ball... instead of looking at the overall picture. On the other side. We say Hayes ability to finish is quite impressive, yet you focus on that one layup he misses (remember he is always on the move, and over 50% fg is very efficient). Yet you still ignore the overall picture. You claim you watch all the rockets game, yet you have very little understanding of basketball. I don't care how long you've followed the rockets. It is irrelavent. You live in an iverson, kobe world in which individual stats mean everything. Who is a better team player Hayes or Howard WHY? Answer what does Howard brings to the team and what Hayes brings to the team? (Try to list ONLY the positives of BOTH players, no Hayes bashing) I can answer both objectively. Can you?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Outside of the first month, Howard's returned back to his old self. He's scoring, rebounding & defending. Theres ur evidence.</div> He's scoring. There's no "evidence" that he's rebounding or defending better than Chuck, though there is a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not exactly...that's intenionally false. Howard's been playin because Hayes's can't stay on the court (excessive hacking), and being that Hayes is a LIABILITY on offense, we gotta get some offense in there. Injuries is a small factor, but Howard was playin good before they happened. If you can recall, he hit some HUGE shots for us earlier in the season. Howard has outplayed Hayes/Padgett/Novak and even the stubborn JVG can't deny this. </div> JVG explicitly said why Howard was put in the starting lineup. Hayes and Mutombo together doesn't give the team enough scoring in the interior. The injury to Yao was obviously a major factor here, since need more interior scoring wouldn't be an issue otherwise. Duh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How do you judge screening? If you actually watched the last game, Tmac gotta 4pt play off an incredible screen from Juwan Howard. I don't think Hayes is a better defender either, bein that he's always sending his player to the line. Alot of that stuff is overhyped by you guys. Howard's the better overrall player and if ur smart you'd prolly not wanna debate this with me. </div> You judge screening by watching the games. You mentioned one play in which Juwan set a successful pick. Swell. And your argument that Juwan is a better defender is that Hayes fouls more? Nevermind that he gets more steals, blocks, charges, and defensive rebounds. Or that we give up far, far less points per defensive possession with him on the court than Juwan, ever since he's been here, and regardless of the player combinations around him. Or that NBA scouts have actually referred to Chuck as one of the best defensive PFs in the game. Why don't you just admit you're wrong on this one, alright? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I definatley agree with ur assement ....Howard is outplayin Hayes. Everytime Howard hits a shot, I can't help but think about how right I was before the season </div> Yep. Chuck outplayed Juwan in the first month, and now Juwan is outplaying Chuck in the second month of the season. Funny how you got all flustered and accused me of gloating back in November when all I did was refer to their stats: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">For you to even bring that up so early in the season is beyond idiotic. Hayes has played well in his couple games, and Howard has played well in his limited mins. It's WAY to early to jump around and start celebrating. I stick by my assertion Hayes is not a starter in this league, and Howard is better. How bout you wait till the half way season mark to start gloating.</div> Now that Juwan has raised his level of play since mid-December, it's alright to start gloating. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I expect for Howard to excel in the system regardless. He's obviously the best true powerfoward on our team, and he's outplayed everybody at that position. </div> Like he did in November? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's halarious to hear you backtrack on ur positions, ur argument has been regulated to just starting line ups now All of sudden, ur tellin me Hayes can't excel because Yao's injured If he's a good player like you hyped him up to be, why would somebody else effect his play? Wouldn't he be effective regardless? Juwan Howard sure is............</div> You don't actually believe what you're writing. You gave all sorts of excuses for why Juwan struggled in November. If he's such a good player, how come he couldn't play effectively back then? Sorry, but basketball doesn't work that way. It's a team game. What matters is coming up with lineups that work effectively as a unit and rotations that give your team the best chance to win. When we're lacking scoring, particularly in the interior, Juwan makes sense. That's why I said right when Yao went down that Juwan would probably start. But when we have our full compliment of players, Chuck fits better in the starting lineup (i.e. I think he makes that starting lineup better than it would be with Juwan). Conversely, I think Juwan might make the bench better than Chuck would, because coming off the bench Juwan will get more opportunities to score. You seem to want to frame the issue as "Who's the more complete basketball player" or "Who's the more skilled basketball player." That's never been the real issue to me. I care about which player is most effective while on the court with the Rockets. What Chuck does may not be pretty, and may seem "unskilled" to you, but he's effective. Particularly he's free to do the dirty work while Yao/T-Mac take care of the offense. Our starting lineup was dominating in November. The Alston-McGrady-Battier-Yao combination hasn't been nearly as effective with Juwan on the court. That's a fact.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life, the fact that you can't take facts objectively shows that it is ultimately pointless to argue with you. You have the mentality that you are right, and everything else anyone (even though statistics back it up) is irrelavent. I have yet to see you make ONE OBJECTIVE statment.</div> U must not read that well then, because I've already had other ppl agree with some of my OBJECTIVE statements. Just take the time to actually READ what I'm sayin and stop skimming thru it. Thank you <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You only feed off what juwan does well. You only see the good points and ignore all the bad points. Just for argument I want to see you list objectively what the pro's and con's are of both Juwan and Chuck. Not pros of Juwan and Con's of Chuck (which you have been repeatedly doing). All us Chuck lovers, acknowledge what his weaknesses are. We don't delude ourselves, and we don't ignore other facts. You on the other hand seem to ignore anythign that proves your argument false. Don't say we don't acknowledge Hayes' faults. Its because of his faults that makes Hayes such a wonderful player. He is an undersized powerforward with no post or midrange game. The fact that he IMPROVES our offense (yes thats right, improves) despite these deficiencies is why are fans (not to mention his defense).</div> Again...We've been debating this for awhile. When the season started, Howard didn't play that much. You guys had a FIELD DAY with that, and had no problem mentioning to me how Hayes was flourishing and Howard wasn't. Now that Howard's gettin his mins and outplayin ur favorite player, you guys all of sudden don't wanna talk about it. All of a sudden ROCK4LIFE's up to his old tactics again (yea, that's it). I'm the ONLY Howard supporter in here, and I'm proud of that!! <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Howard can score, but Hayes makes it much easier for our superstars to score. It is why he starts with Yao and Mcgrady. You don't need another scoring option out there. You need someone that makes it easier for our STARS TO SCORE. This is why Howard is much more effective coming off the bench when Yao and Mac are resting. Would you rather have Hayes start with Yao and Mac and Howard providing the scoring off the bench, or Howard starting with Yao and Mac (and scoring much less).</div> If that's the case, then why was Howard finishing games with Yao & Tmac on the court? I thought Hayes makes it easier, right? The fact is, you haven't been doing ur homework. Teams got smart and started smothering our stars with Hayes's man knowing that he can't finish with a hand in his face. Case in point, the game in Minnesota where they just smothered Yao all nite with KG. It's the disadvantage of puttin Hayes on the court. It's why Howard is in the game in 4th quarters, because he stretches the offense. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Time and time again you say Hayes is an offensive liability, yet you do nothing to look outside of individual scoring. You seem to concentrate only on JHo. I notice when we say something bad on JHo (like defence), you pick one instance where he rips the ball... instead of looking at the overall picture. On the other side. We say Hayes ability to finish is quite impressive, yet you focus on that one layup he misses (remember he is always on the move, and over 50% fg is very efficient). Yet you still ignore the overall picture.</div> Correction!! He misses atleast one lay up a game or gets blocked under rim once a game. If you don't believe me, ask BILL WORRELL, MATT BULLARD, or JIM PETERSON the Rockets announcers who constantly mention how Hayes has problems finishing. Yet ur telling me he's doesn't Those are things that hurt the team, why wouldn't I point that out . The overrall picture is Howard is outplaying Hayes, go ask Durvasa he'll tell you the same thing. Howard has been playin GREAT ball, his miscues have been very limited. So I'm sorry if I don't mention Howard's mistakes enuff, but lately he's been playin the best ball besides Tmac. I can't complain. Can you? <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You claim you watch all the rockets game, yet you have very little understanding of basketball. I don't care how long you've followed the rockets. It is irrelavent. You live in an iverson, kobe world in which individual stats mean everything.</div> And you live in a world where setting a hard screen grants superstar status Where a 2nd year garbage player gets more praise than a 12yr proven veteran & ultimate professional who produces night in & night out. If we listened to you, the Rockets would be TERRIBLE! I can't quite judge ur understanding of the game, because I don't think you have any. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who is a better team player Hayes or Howard WHY? Answer what does Howard brings to the team and what Hayes brings to the team? (Try to list ONLY the positives of BOTH players, no Hayes bashing) I can answer both objectively. Can you?</div> Howard's the better team player, PERIOD. He's gettin more minutes, and ever since he's picked up his play we've been winning. Imagine if we listened to you and didn't play Howard much, we'd be a 500. team. The guy makes our offense run so much smoother. Teams have to respect his shot, so if he's hitting it effects the whole complexion of the game. Who are you gonna leave open with Howard on the court? He's no defensive stopper, but he's still capable of getting key stops without fouling. So basically he's capable of giving us everything Hayes can give us AND SOME. Hayes's role is LIMITED. He's a good rebounder, but he has nothing on offense, and struggles defensivley against players longer and more athletic (why he's always in foul trouble). Howard is the better player, if I have to say it 100 times. Instead of admitting ur unappreciative of Howard's attributes, you make up stats for Hayes like "screen setting" Whatever....I can't wait to see how this ends up
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Whatever....I can't wait to see how this ends up</div> I just want to know why you keep avoiding the simple task of predicting what their stats will be. Since you're always referring to Juwan's numbers to validate your assertions that he's playing well, then do you think he'll have better numbers than Chuck by the end of the year? If so, what will they be? Since we're both uncertain how the minutes will shake out, why don't you just predict what you think Juwan's and Chuck's points, assists, rebounds per 25 minutes, along with his FG% and FT% will be by the end of the year. I'll do the same. Then we can compare who's closer when all is said and done. Also, predict what the point differential (per 48 minutes) will be with Yao-McGrady-Juwan on the court compared to Yao-McGrady-Chuck on the court. Given all your arguments, you must expect that we'd be much better with Juwan than Chuck, right? Are you game, or are you chicken? This could be fun. Give it a shot.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I just want to know why you keep avoiding the simple task of predicting what their stats will be. Since you're always referring to Juwan's numbers to validate your assertions that he's playing well, then do you think he'll have better numbers than Chuck by the end of the year? If so, what will they be? Since we're both uncertain how the minutes will shake out, why don't you just predict what you think Juwan's and Chuck's points, assists, rebounds per 25 minutes, along with his FG% and FT% will be by the end of the year. I'll do the same. Then we can compare who's closer when all is said and done. Also, predict what the point differential (per 48 minutes) will be with Yao-McGrady-Juwan on the court compared to Yao-McGrady-Chuck on the court. Given all your arguments, you must expect that we'd be much better with Juwan than Chuck, right? Are you game, or are you chicken? This could be fun. Give it a shot. </div> 15pts & 7rebs= Juwan Howard What will Chuck Hayes's be, let me guess 2pts & 7rebs= Chuck Hayes (Wow!!)
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">15pts & 7rebs= Juwan Howard What will Chuck Hayes's be, let me guess 2pts & 7rebs= Chuck Hayes (Wow!!)</div> Come on, be serious. Let's do this for real. As a hint, this is what they averaged in December per 25min: Juwan: 9.2 points, 6.8 rebs, 1.2 ast, 49.2 FG%, 100 FT% Chuck: 4.9 points, 7.4 rebs, 0.7 ast, 52.8 FG%, 58.6 FT% And this is what they've done since Yao got injured (including the Clippers game): Juwan: (33.3 mpg) 10.3 points, 6.8 rebs, 1.9 ast, 48.4 FG%, 91.7 FT% Chuck: (24.5 mpg) 5.4 points, 7.1 rebs, 0.7 ast, 61.1 FG%, 66.7 FT% Do you think that's about where they'll end up by the end of the season? Give me a serious prediction. Juwan will NOT average 15 points per 25 minutes; he's never scored close to that rate in his entire career. Also, what will our point-differential be per 48 minutes with Yao-McGrady-Juwan, and what will it be with Yao-McGrady-Chuck?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">U must not read that well then, because I've already had other ppl agree with some of my OBJECTIVE statements. Just take the time to actually READ what I'm sayin and stop skimming thru it. Thank you </div> Read the dictionary. Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased. Fact is, you are incapable of criticizing JHo and giving praise to Hayes, regardless of the situation. You have failed to even answer some of the simplest questions I posed for you. Let me put it in bold so that you dont SKIM over it. I want to see you list objectively what the pro's and con's are of both Juwan and Chuck. Not pros of Juwan and Con's of Chuck (which you have been repeatedly doing).. Here is another: Answer what does Howard brings to the team and what Hayes brings to the team? (Try to list ONLY the positives of BOTH players, no Hayes bashing) . You cant even do something as simple as that. You contined to bash Hayes. If his pro's were so limited, why is EVERYONE (excluding you), so impressed by Hayes? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Again...We've been debating this for awhile. When the season started, Howard didn't play that much. You guys had a FIELD DAY with that, and had no problem mentioning to me how Hayes was flourishing and Howard wasn't. Now that Howard's gettin his mins and outplayin ur favorite player, you guys all of sudden don't wanna talk about it. All of a sudden ROCK4LIFE's up to his old tactics again (yea, that's it). I'm the ONLY Howard supporter in here, and I'm proud of that!! </div> Not only did he not play much, he played horribly that november. If Hayes was playing that badly, I would criticize too. Hell...we all dished out praise to Howard when he was playing well. Durvasa even said that as well. My second favorite player is Yao Ming, and I'm not shy about dishing criticisms about him either. You aren't the only Howard supporter here...you are the only Hayes basher here. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> If that's the case, then why was Howard finishing games with Yao & Tmac on the court? I thought Hayes makes it easier, right? The fact is, you haven't been doing ur homework. Teams got smart and started smothering our stars with Hayes's man knowing that he can't finish with a hand in his face. Case in point, the game in Minnesota where they just smothered Yao all nite with KG. It's the disadvantage of puttin Hayes on the court. It's why Howard is in the game in 4th quarters, because he stretches the offense. </div> In November, when both are stars were healthy. The few games that Howard did finish with both Yao and Mac was probably due to Hayes' foul trouble. I'm surpised you didnt realise that since you bring up his "hacking" every post. Why is it..and you have not even addressed this point yet...that we score more per 48 min when Hayes is out, compared to when Howard is out? Look at durvasa's post. If we can't use stats to prove our point, what do we use? Your personal opinion? We all know how unbiased that is. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Correction!! He misses atleast one lay up a game or gets blocked under rim once a game. If you don't believe me, ask BILL WORRELL, MATT BULLARD, or JIM PETERSON the Rockets announcers who constantly mention how Hayes has problems finishing. Yet ur telling me he's doesn't Those are things that hurt the team, why wouldn't I point that out . The overrall picture is Howard is outplaying Hayes, go ask Durvasa he'll tell you the same thing. Howard has been playin GREAT ball, his miscues have been very limited. So I'm sorry if I don't mention Howard's mistakes enuff, but lately he's been playin the best ball besides Tmac. I can't complain. Can you? </div> Wow..I didn't know missing one layup a game is such a bad thing. Rafer misses like 5 a game and Head misses like 3 a game. Juwan misses quite a few. Look at his FG%. Oh my goodness, the only shots he ever takes are finishes. Me and durvasa pointed out the close range field goal percentage mulitple times, yet....somehow, you ignore that. He has a 60% efg from close range. Would you consider Yao ming a good finisher? He has a 55.6% efg from close range. EXPLAIN THAT. I'm glad you didn't list Clyde in there, at least you know whos not a reliable person. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> And you live in a world where setting a hard screen grants superstar status Where a 2nd year garbage player gets more praise than a 12yr proven veteran & ultimate professional who produces night in & night out. If we listened to you, the Rockets would be TERRIBLE! I can't quite judge ur understanding of the game, because I don't think you have any. </div> Who said anything about setting screens grants superstar status? My position is that Hayes is a better team player than Juwan. Last year, Juwan was not producing. On the contrary, last year, his play was a bit dissapointing. Of course if the Rockets listened to me, we would be terrible....If that weren't the case, I wouldnt be a engineer, I would be a head coach. Doesnt mean I do not understand the game. The fact that you are the only person calling Hayes garbage shows how little you understand. Out of all the boards I have read. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS THIS LITTLE OF HAYES. Yea....maybe we are all just idiots, and you are the only person who has common sense. Keep thinking that. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Howard's the better team player, PERIOD. He's gettin more minutes, and ever since he's picked up his play we've been winning. Imagine if we listened to you and didn't play Howard much, we'd be a 500. team. The guy makes our offense run so much smoother. Teams have to respect his shot, so if he's hitting it effects the whole complexion of the game. Who are you gonna leave open with Howard on the court? He's no defensive stopper, but he's still capable of getting key stops without fouling. So basically he's capable of giving us everything Hayes can give us AND SOME. Hayes's role is LIMITED. He's a good rebounder, but he has nothing on offense, and struggles defensivley against players longer and more athletic (why he's always in foul trouble). Howard is the better player, if I have to say it 100 times. Instead of admitting ur unappreciative of Howard's attributes, you make up stats for Hayes like "screen setting" Whatever....I can't wait to see how this ends up</div> Sorry. You failed. You cant even answer my question correctly. I guess where you are from, the stuff in parenthesis is ignored. Um..where did I say I was unappreciative of Howard's attributes? If anything you are the one unappreciative of Hayes' attributes. I'm not gonna argue who the better team player because thats been argued before. You are incapable of absorbing facts. I will say one thing though. Did you even play basketball in High School at least, or in some league at all? You don't seem to realize how important it is to disrupt the defense by keeping them moving. Movement without the ball and setting screens are an important aspect. Offensive rebounding is another key aspect to the offense. The only offensive thing that JHo is better than Hayes is scoring....But hey..thats what the other four players are there for. I agree with you on this aspect though. Hayes is a limited role player. If it wasnt for Mcgrady and Yao, his value to the team wouldnt be as high. Also I do admit that Howard's value to the team is higher depending on whos playing. Anyways, you still didnt answer this Would you rather have Hayes start with Yao and Mac and Howard providing the scoring off the bench, or Howard starting with Yao and Mac (and scoring much less). If Hayes defense was struggling why do we allow only 92 points per 100 possessions when hes on the court vs. 105 points when hes off? THAT IS A 13 POINT DIFFERENCE. Quite a significant ammount. Lets check Juwan's stats. We allow 106.8 when hes on the court vs 95.3 when hes off the court. That means Juwan allows opponents to score 11.5 points more per 100 possessions.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Read the dictionary</div> How about you just "read" period...... <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased. Fact is, you are incapable of criticizing JHo and giving praise to Hayes, regardless of the situation. You have failed to even answer some of the simplest questions I posed for you. Let me put it in bold so that you dont SKIM over it. I want to see you list objectively what the pro's and con's are of both Juwan and Chuck. Not pros of Juwan and Con's of Chuck (which you have been repeatedly doing).. Here is another: Answer what does Howard brings to the team and what Hayes brings to the team? (Try to list ONLY the positives of BOTH players, no Hayes bashing) . You cant even do something as simple as that. You contined to bash Hayes. If his pro's were so limited, why is EVERYONE (excluding you), so impressed by Hayes?</div> That's ur problem dude....ur not READING my post, ur just skimming thru'em. I've already conceded that I underestimated Hayes's rebounding & determination. So ur lame excuse that "Rock4life doesn't acknowledge Hayes's qualities" is false. If you had read my posts, you'd see I've already answered ur questions. Do ur research son <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Not only did he not play much, he played horribly that november. If Hayes was playing that badly, I would criticize too. Hell...we all dished out praise to Howard when he was playing well. Durvasa even said that as well. My second favorite player is Yao Ming, and I'm not shy about dishing criticisms about him either. You aren't the only Howard supporter here...you are the only Hayes basher here.</div> How could he play horribly, when he really didn't play at all? And for the record, I'm not a basher of anybody (except Ginobli or Raja Bell). I'm just sayin that we're not gonna get far if Hayes is gonna play big minutes in this league. We've tried to go small at PF with Clarence Weathspoon and it cost us a playoff series. It's something JVG likes to do, but isn't very successful. I don't think Hayes is the answer if we're seriously tryna be contenders. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">In November, when both are stars were healthy. The few games that Howard did finish with both Yao and Mac was probably due to Hayes' foul trouble. I'm surpised you didnt realise that since you bring up his "hacking" every post. Why is it..and you have not even addressed this point yet...that we score more per 48 min when Hayes is out, compared to when Howard is out? Look at durvasa's post. If we can't use stats to prove our point, what do we use? Your personal opinion? We all know how unbiased that is.</div> I really don't go by +/- stats because it has so many different variables involved. Hayes's +/- might be higher than Howard's simply because he's mainly on the court with our superstars (or vice versa). Howard might have 18pts & 12rebs and his +/- might not be that good depending on how his team preformed. The only way you can see who's really effectin the game is to WATCH IT That and follow their stats. Howard's role is much bigger than Hayes's, so this debate isn't really much. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow..I didn't know missing one layup a game is such a bad thing. Rafer misses like 5 a game and Head misses like 3 a game. Juwan misses quite a few. Look at his FG%. Oh my goodness, the only shots he ever takes are finishes. Me and durvasa pointed out the close range field goal percentage mulitple times, yet....somehow, you ignore that. He has a 60% efg from close range. Would you consider Yao ming a good finisher? He has a 55.6% efg from close range. EXPLAIN THAT. I'm glad you didn't list Clyde in there, at least you know whos not a reliable person.</div> Now ur completley misleading. Skip doesn't miss lay ups every game, niether does Head. Being that their counted on to provide offense every night (which they have been doing) their gonna have some screw ups. Why? because they take more shots than say, a Chuck Hayes. Similar to a point guard prone to committing more turnovers bein that he's handlin the rock the majority of the time. But Hayes's difficulty finishing under the basket has become a concern to me, Bill Worrell, Matt Bullard, and Jim Peterson. We've all noticed how he's missin shots point blank too often. If this were San Antonio (or Dallas) in the playoffs, they'd completley take advantage of that. The better teams are gonna expose his weakness. A great coach would take away that weakness, but JVG doesn't seem to get that aspect. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who said anything about setting screens grants superstar status? My position is that Hayes is a better team player than Juwan. Last year, Juwan was not producing. On the contrary, last year, his play was a bit dissapointing. Of course if the Rockets listened to me, we would be terrible....If that weren't the case, I wouldnt be a engineer, I would be a head coach. Doesnt mean I do not understand the game. The fact that you are the only person calling Hayes garbage shows how little you understand. Out of all the boards I have read. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS THIS LITTLE OF HAYES. Yea....maybe we are all just idiots, and you are the only person who has common sense. Keep thinking that.</div> Juwan averaged 11pts and 6rebs last season, far from dissappointing. If Hayes averaged 11pts a game, you'd treat him like the 2nd comin of Ben Wallace. But instead of concentrate on this year, where Howard is outplayin Hayes. You & Durvasa keep resortin back to the ghost of last year. Again foo, stop being a silly Foo about this ALL of you underestimated Howard's role on this team before the season. I was the ONLY one in here who squarley defended Howard. So maybe that's what has you guys all emotional. For the record, I've already took my "scrub" comment about Hayes back. But you wouldn't know it, because you don't READ MY DAMN POSTS! My understanding of the game is why this debate isn't look to good for most of you. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry. You failed. You cant even answer my question correctly. I guess where you are from, the stuff in parenthesis is ignored. Um..where did I say I was unappreciative of Howard's attributes? If anything you are the one unappreciative of Hayes' attributes. I'm not gonna argue who the better team player because thats been argued before. You are incapable of absorbing facts. I will say one thing though. Did you even play basketball in High School at least, or in some league at all? You don't seem to realize how important it is to disrupt the defense by keeping them moving. Movement without the ball and setting screens are an important aspect. Offensive rebounding is another key aspect to the offense. The only offensive thing that JHo is better than Hayes is scoring....But hey..thats what the other four players are there for. I agree with you on this aspect though. Hayes is a limited role player. If it wasnt for Mcgrady and Yao, his value to the team wouldnt be as high. Also I do admit that Howard's value to the team is higher depending on whos playing. Anyways, you still didnt answer this Would you rather have Hayes start with Yao and Mac and Howard providing the scoring off the bench, or Howard starting with Yao and Mac (and scoring much less). If Hayes defense was struggling why do we allow only 92 points per 100 possessions when hes on the court vs. 105 points when hes off? THAT IS A 13 POINT DIFFERENCE. Quite a significant ammount. Lets check Juwan's stats. We allow 106.8 when hes on the court vs 95.3 when hes off the court. That means Juwan allows opponents to score 11.5 points more per 100 possessions.</div> First off, I'm actually from Houston. I go see many of the games and have followed the Rockets since the Sleepy Floyd era. Not to brag, but don't sit here and challenge me on that because you'll make a damn foo of ur self. I played ball in highschool, and still do once everyday. Don't test me If it were up to me, Hayes would play only in emergency situations. Howard would start and get the majority of the minutes. The need for an athletic big is only more glaring, and Hayes would be on outs if I were coach. NOTE: If Hayes has a limited role and Howard has a major role, then can we both agree that this debate is over?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How about you just "read" period...... That's ur problem dude....ur not READING my post, ur just skimming thru'em. I've already conceded that I underestimated Hayes's rebounding & determination. So ur lame excuse that "Rock4life doesn't acknowledge Hayes's qualities" is false. If you had read my posts, you'd see I've already answered ur questions. Do ur research son </div> Well, you fessed that Hayes was rebounding slightly better than you thought he would. I dunno, but to me slightly better than a complete scrub is still a scrub. Your acknowledgement of Hayes is like me saying Jordan was an above average player. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> How could he play horribly, when he really didn't play at all? And for the record, I'm not a basher of anybody (except Ginobli or Raja Bell). I'm just sayin that we're not gonna get far if Hayes is gonna play big minutes in this league. We've tried to go small at PF with Clarence Weathspoon and it cost us a playoff series. It's something JVG likes to do, but isn't very successful. I don't think Hayes is the answer if we're seriously tryna be contenders. </div> He got more minutes at the end of November. Also, we had a different team then (in reference to your Weatherspon comment). I said before, Hayes fits our style of basketball very well (I also stated that he complements Mac and Yao very well). Yes his role is very limited. Not every team could use a Hayes (actually probably a small amount could). That said, Hayes fits in very well with the Rockets. It depends on the teams need. As of now, I guess we can agree to disagree what this team needs more. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I really don't go by +/- stats because it has so many different variables involved. Hayes's +/- might be higher than Howard's simply because he's mainly on the court with our superstars (or vice versa). Howard might have 18pts & 12rebs and his +/- might not be that good depending on how his team preformed. The only way you can see who's really effectin the game is to WATCH IT That and follow their stats. Howard's role is much bigger than Hayes's, so this debate isn't really much. </div> Well, in order to combat the superstar effect, you compare the +/- to similar teammates. In otherwords You compare the +/- of Yao, Mac, and Hayes vs. Yao, Mac, and Howard. Hayes still outperforms in those aspect. My main beef with Howard lately (and a small one at that), is his defense still needs improvement. Other than that hes been playing pretty well. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Now ur completley misleading. Skip doesn't miss lay ups every game, niether does Head. Being that their counted on to provide offense every night (which they have been doing) their gonna have some screw ups. Why? because they take more shots than say, a Chuck Hayes. Similar to a point guard prone to committing more turnovers bein that he's handlin the rock the majority of the time. </div> You are kidding right? Skip misses a lot of those "teardrops". Head misses quite a few layups too. And they certainly miss more (percentage wise). They dont necessarily take more inside shots. Hayes only attempts layups so it would seem like he misses more, because that is the only type of shot he takes. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> But Hayes's difficulty finishing under the basket has become a concern to me, Bill Worrell, Matt Bullard, and Jim Peterson. We've all noticed how he's missin shots point blank too often. If this were San Antonio (or Dallas) in the playoffs, they'd completley take advantage of that. The better teams are gonna expose his weakness. A great coach would take away that weakness, but JVG doesn't seem to get that aspect. </div> He's actually attempts quite difficult layups. Its not like hes missing open ones. He has an extremely quick release and often tries to go up faster and against much taller oppenents. I don't know why they would say he has trouble finishing. I guess its only because his only shots are those "finishers" therefore it gets noticed more. Btw for quite a long time, Hayes was number 1 in the lenovo stats for most of November (ahead of Duncan and Nash). For such a liability, that is still quite impressive. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Juwan averaged 11pts and 6rebs last season, far from dissappointing. If Hayes averaged 11pts a game, you'd treat him like the 2nd comin of Ben Wallace. But instead of concentrate on this year, where Howard is outplayin Hayes. You & Durvasa keep resortin back to the ghost of last year. Again foo, stop being a silly Foo about this ALL of you underestimated Howard's role on this team before the season. I was the ONLY one in here who squarley defended Howard. So maybe that's what has you guys all emotional. For the record, I've already took my "scrub" comment about Hayes back. But you wouldn't know it, because you don't READ MY DAMN POSTS! My understanding of the game is why this debate isn't look to good for most of you. </div> 11 points 6 rebounds last year for the amount of minutes he played on an injury filled team is very very disappointing. I could care less if Hayes scored 11 points a game. In fact, there would be something terribly wrong if he was scoring that many a game. His role is not to score, but to provide opening in the defense so that others can score. The only reason why Howard was underestimated was simply because of his lackluster performance the past two years. Most people tend to use trends to predict how well somebody will do. You got to admit, the way Howard played this past December was probably the best hes played in a LONG time. Btw, we brought up last years stats to project why we thought he would do poorly this year. The last year stats is not used to compare to Hayes, but provides a reference as to why we thought Howard would play poorly this year. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> First off, I'm actually from Houston. I go see many of the games and have followed the Rockets since the Sleepy Floyd era. Not to brag, but don't sit here and challenge me on that because you'll make a damn foo of ur self. I played ball in highschool, and still do once everyday. Don't test me If it were up to me, Hayes would play only in emergency situations. Howard would start and get the majority of the minutes. The need for an athletic big is only more glaring, and Hayes would be on outs if I were coach. NOTE: If Hayes has a limited role and Howard has a major role, then can we both agree that this debate is over?</div> I mean playing ball as in playing in a competatitve team in which winning was actually important (such as high school basketball team) and where running plays was essential. I also want you to try something. I want you to focus on what Hayes does without the ball and notice the plays. Compare his movements to Juwan's movments. Don't even look at the ball. I'm not saying that our offense is better than with Hayes than with Juwan (actually going by +/-, they are now about the same). As for how long you followed the Rockets, that point is entirely irrelavent to the debate at hand. My dad has followed Rockets since before I was born, and I've followed them since I was around 7 or 8. But, I'm not sure why any of that is important .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> I really don't go by +/- stats because it has so many different variables involved. Hayes's +/- might be higher than Howard's simply because he's mainly on the court with our superstars (or vice versa). Howard might have 18pts & 12rebs and his +/- might not be that good depending on how his team preformed.</div> You keep making this point. I've shown several times +/- breakdowns with multiple player combinations. You seem to keep ignoring this. <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>min TmPts OppPtsOff48 Def48 Net48<br/>Yao-McGrady-Chuck 215 447 358 99.879.9+19.9<br/>Yao-McGrady-Juwan 127 260 257 98.096.9+1.1<br/>Yao-McGrady (no Juwan/Chuck)162 335 337 99.199.7-0.6<br/></div> But let's also add Battier to the mix to be fair, since Chuck and Battier are often paired together: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>min TmPts OppPtsOff48 Def48 Net48<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier-Chuck 207 430 339 99.878.7+21.1<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier-Juwan 91196 173 103.6 91.5+12.1<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier (no J/C)141 291 291 99.099.0+0<br/></div> Overwhelmingly, this is in Chuck's favor.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You keep making this point. I've shown several times +/- breakdowns with multiple player combinations. You seem to keep ignoring this. <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>min TmPts OppPtsOff48 Def48 Net48<br/>Yao-McGrady-Chuck 215 447 358 99.879.9+19.9<br/>Yao-McGrady-Juwan 127 260 257 98.096.9+1.1<br/>Yao-McGrady (no Juwan/Chuck)162 335 337 99.199.7-0.6<br/></div> But let's also add Battier to the mix to be fair, since Chuck and Battier are often paired together: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>min TmPts OppPtsOff48 Def48 Net48<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier-Chuck 207 430 339 99.878.7+21.1<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier-Juwan 91196 173 103.6 91.5+12.1<br/>Yao-McGrady-Battier (no J/C)141 291 291 99.099.0+0<br/></div> Overwhelmingly, this is in Chuck's favor.</div> It's almost 100 less minutes for Howard in the first section and 200+ less minutes in the 2nd section for Howard. Is that really an accurate assement? They haven't played anything near equal amount of minutes with the starters.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's almost 100 less minutes for Howard in the first section and 200+ less minutes in the 2nd section for Howard. Is that really an accurate assement? They haven't played anything near equal amount of minutes with the starters.</div> Your math is off. 88 less minutes in first section, 116 less minutes in second. The numbers are accurate -- I'm comparing what they did per 48 minutes. Juwan's 100+ minutes, like Chuck's minutes, have come over the span of several games in November and early December. In Juwan's sample of 100+ minutes, we haven't played nearly as well as a team as we have in Chuck's sample of 200+ minutes. You think that if Juwan played 100 more minutes the +/- numbers will even out? That's why I asked you yesterday to give a prediction. By season's end, what will our "Net48" (point differential per 48 minutes) be with Yao, Tracy, and Juwan on the court? You think we'd be outscoring teams by, say, 5 points per 48 minutes? 10? 20? Through the first 5 weeks of the season when we had Yao and Tracy, the Yao-Tracy-Chuck combination had a stellar point differential. You think Juwan will be able to match that, or at least get close?
Seriously, this is becoming quite humorous. Hayes & Howard aren't in the same league and it's becoming more and more obvious by the game. I know u guys love Hayes, but he's NOWHERE near the player Howard is. And for the record, Howard played great again tonight. Even played good DEFENSE on Garnett (I thought he was a poor defender). If you still wanna debate, cool. But it seems like all you were completely wrong about Juwan succeeding this year.
I have to agree, beginning of the season I though Chuck was the better player. But all these minutes coming Howard's way have really got him going. His jump shot is going in, even in clutch times. I remember thinking they were on about the same level, but Howard has definitely stepped it up.
Right now, it's obvious Juwan is helping the team more. We have limited scoring options, particularly from our bigs, so Juwan's value increases. And Chuck hasn't distinguished himself at all the last few weeks. First month of the season, when Juwan's playing time was limited (reverse of the current situation), it was Chuck who was clearly bringing more value to the team. But as the need for a scoring threat who can play big minutes has increased the last month or so, Juwan has overtaken him. My expectation is that Juwan will continue to play a much bigger role on the team while Yao is out. When Yao returns, if JVG elects to stick with Juwan in the starting lineup (personally, I think that would be a mistake) then Chuck's role will continue to be marginalized. I stick by the predictions I made regarding their numbers, though. Juwan may very well average many more MPG than Chuck by season's end (thus inflating his per game numbers), but I expect Chuck's per minute productivity to be greater. Particularly when you factor in the plus/minus stats.
Chuck's foul trouble is really getting to him. His average time for his first personal foul would be about 1-2 minutes right after he steps foot on the hardwood.
At this point of the season, Juwan Howard is definetly more productive than Hayes. And yes, it has a lot to do with minutes. Howard has almost doubled his scoring average from the beginning of the year. With Yao out, Howard has stepped up, and "right now" Howard is better than Hayes and I expect Howard to keep it up till the end of the season.
U guys are right, Howard is the better player. But it's not because he's just "gettin the minutes". He's outplayed Hayes this season. But just think about it, Howard wasn't even in the coaches plans when the season started Just goes to show you how dumbfounded our coach is. He thinks he can win with ALL DEFENSE & Hustle. You can't do that. You have to have a balance between effecient offense and efficient defense. JVG doesn't understand that (a few of you don't either).
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He thinks he can win with ALL DEFENSE & Hustle. </div> Oh I guess Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady mean little to you then.
