Juwan or Chuck?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets' started by durvasa, Oct 14, 2006.

  1. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">AznxBaller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Oh I guess Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady mean little to you then.</div>
    I was referring more to his "slug it out" playin style. If you watch some games, you'll come to the same conclusion.
     
  2. AznxBaller

    AznxBaller JBB Back...

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was referring more to his "slug it out" playin style. If you watch some games, you'll come to the same conclusion.</div>
    All I know is that a lineup of Alston, Head/Battier, McGrady, Hayes, and Yao isn't "ALL DEFENSE & Hustle". That lineup was one of the most productive and was winning us quite a plenty of games until McGrady or Yao went down. Thus, I already made your comment about not being able to win with the apparent "ALL DEFENSE & Hustle" null.
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">U guys are right, Howard is the better player. But it's not because he's just "gettin the minutes". He's outplayed Hayes this season. But just think about it, Howard wasn't even in the coaches plans when the season started[​IMG] Just goes to show you how dumbfounded our coach is. He thinks he can win with ALL DEFENSE & Hustle. You can't do that. You have to have a balance between effecient offense and efficient defense. JVG doesn't understand that (a few of you don't either).</div>

    That "All Defense and Hustle' starting lineup we had in November was +109, leading the league by a wide margin in point differential. It was very efficient -- offensively and defensively. It's easily the best lineup we've had on the court this year.
     
  4. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That "All Defense and Hustle' starting lineup we had in November was +109, leading the league by a wide margin in point differential. It was very efficient -- offensively and defensively. It's easily the best lineup we've had on the court this year.</div>
    Yep....A line up with Yao, Tmac & Battier will definatley pick up the slack. Don't act like that doesn't have anything to do with it either[​IMG]
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yep....A line up with Yao, Tmac & Battier will definatley pick up the slack. Don't act like that doesn't have anything to do with it either[​IMG]</div>

    It has a lot to do with it. And in general they're better with Chuck than with Juwan. Point differential per minute with Yao-Tmac-Battier-Chuck is FAR higher than Yao-Tmac-Battier-Juwan. Already posted those numbers in this thread.
     
  6. umair

    umair "Never underestimate the heart of a champion."

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    I dont care what anyone says, at this point in Rockets history, Juwan Howard is better than Hayes "right now." Hayes has been very less productive since Yao has been out, and Juwan has been playing great with his "consistent" jumper from 10-12 feet out. Juwan has a great touch from that range.
     
  7. Fitch4Delk00

    Fitch4Delk00 JBB JustBBall Member

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    ^ This is getting old plain and simple Howard didnt do anything until the stars were hurt, when there both recovered he will do nothing once again.
     
  8. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">fitch4delk00 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^ This is getting old plain and simple Howard didnt do anything until the stars were hurt, when there both recovered he will do nothing once again.</div>
    Not true[​IMG] ...He picked up his play after the first month of the season, well before both of our starters were hurt. I'd LOVE for you (Fitch) to wager me that Howard won't be effective when Yao gets back. You said he did "nothin" early (which is wrong) and you make the BOLD statement that he'll do nothin when Yao gets healthy. I wanna see if you'll stand by that.

    Looks like u guys are gonna make me look like a genius once again[​IMG]

    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It has a lot to do with it. And in general they're better with Chuck than with Juwan. Point differential per minute with Yao-Tmac-Battier-Chuck is FAR higher than Yao-Tmac-Battier-Juwan. Already posted those numbers in this thread.</div>
    Yea, but I'd bet against those numbers now. With Howard playin fantastic as expected, I'd say those numbers might change when Yao gets back. Especially against the elite teams who will expose Hayes's weaknesess's.
     
  9. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
    Yea, but I'd bet against those numbers now. With Howard playin fantastic as expected, I'd say those numbers might change when Yao gets back. Especially against the elite teams who will expose Hayes's weaknesess's.</div>

    Ok, that's what I wanted you to say. So, what will they be? Let's just limit it do what happens the rest of the way and forget about November. Assuming Yao-McGrady-Battier-Howard and Yao-McGrady-Battier-Chuck both get enough time on the court, which combination will have the better point differential, and how much?

    I say with Juwan we'll be a +6 per 48 minutes. And with Chuck we'll be a +10.

    What do you think? I also would bet that Chuck's per minute numbers when Yao returns start to exceed Juwan's again (per game is another issue, totally predicated on how JVG allots the minutes as you well know based on November). The last month or so, Juwan's per minute numbers have definitely exceeded Chuck's. First month, when we had both our guys and Juwan wasn't relied on to score as heavily, it was a different story. I think that first month will be a better indicator of what Juwan's role will be on the team when Yao and McGrady play together again.

    I've been challenging you to make some real predictions, numbers-wise, on what they'll do by season's end. It seems like you don't want to commit to that however, because then it would be possible to prove you were wrong. By sticking with "Juwan will outplay Chuck", which is subjective and unverfiable, regardless of what actually happens you will always say you were right.

    So, again, I'll ask. Make your prediction on what they'll do (per season, or focus specifically on when Yao returns, if you like). It should be per minute, because how minutes are allotted is unpredictable considering the coach.

    Here's what they're doing so far this season, per 25 minutes, to help you make your predictions:

    <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>MPG FGM FGA 3M3AFTM FTA ORTRASSTTOBKPFPTS TS%<br/>Chuck 22.02.3 4.1 0.0 0.0 0.9 1.6 3.2 7.8 0.6 0.8 1.1 0.2 4.1 5.5 57.5%<br/>Juwan 24.83.1 6.8 0.0 0.0 1.8 2.0 1.9 6.1 1.3 0.4 1.2 0.1 2.5 8.0 52.3%<br/></div>
     
  10. umair

    umair "Never underestimate the heart of a champion."

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    I dont care what the stats say. We were suppose to play bad without Yao and we're winning. Juwan is contributing a lot to make us win, Hayes is not. Hayes might've helped with the stars, but Howard's contribution is bigger because it is without Yao. He shows some signs of leadership. Howard is simply playing better right now than Hayes. Go ahead and bring the stats, but imo Howard is playing better than Hayes.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I dont care what the stats say. We were suppose to play bad without Yao and we're winning. Juwan is contributing a lot to make us win, Hayes is not. Hayes might've helped with the stars, but Howard's contribution is bigger because it is without Yao. He shows some signs of leadership. Howard is simply playing better right now than Hayes. Go ahead and bring the stats, but imo Howard is playing better than Hayes.</div>

    Who are you arguing against? Is anyone denying that Juwan is playing better than Chuck?
     
  12. umair

    umair "Never underestimate the heart of a champion."

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    Then why do you keep on bringing up the stats comparing the two?
     
  13. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Then why do you keep on bringing up the stats comparing the two?</div>

    Did you actually read my posts, or are you just responding to the numbers you saw on the screen?
     
  14. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    It's funny.....I don't think anyone could've predicted I'd be so right about this. I wasn't gonna bring it up. But going back and reading some of the old posts, I was ridiculed pretty hard in here (only to be EXACTLY RIGHT about everything on Howard). Wow! I wonder how some of you still view this thread. 2/5/07

    <div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I dont care what the stats say. We were suppose to play bad without Yao and we're winning. Juwan is contributing a lot to make us win, Hayes is not. Hayes might've helped with the stars, but Howard's contribution is bigger because it is without Yao. He shows some signs of leadership. Howard is simply playing better right now than Hayes. Go ahead and bring the stats, but imo Howard is playing better than Hayes.</div>
    [​IMG]
     
  15. igotask8board

    igotask8board Active Member

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    Juwan Howard is washed up and overachieving.

    Seriously though, why does this argument keep popping up. Can't us Rockets fans just be happy that both Hayes and Howard turned out better for this team then we thought they would?
     
  16. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan Howard is washed up and overachieving.</div>
    Did you see him tonight? Just in case you didn't.............

    Juwan Howard 20pts (9-11 fg's)8rebs, 3assist, 1stl

    Yea, he should go ahead and retire after this terrible preformance[​IMG]

    <div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Seriously though, why does this argument keep popping up. Can't us Rockets fans just be happy that both Hayes and Howard turned out better for this team then we thought they would?</div>
    It's interesting how you've changed ur tune so quickly. I was reading ur earlier posts in this same thread and you were the harshest critic of Howard. Damn, what happened[​IMG]

    With all the hype you guys gave Hayes before the season, I'm a tad bit disappointed in his play. Sure he gets his share of offensive rebounds, but overrall he's been pretty much a non-factor. He's missing lay ups, missing free throws, and fouling at a extreme pace. However, Howard has been a HUGE reason for our success. He's been defending, rebounding, and scoring very efficiently. All of which I stated he'd do.

    After arguing 11 pages for Juwan Howard, it kinda feels good to come back and revisit this thread. Go Rockets!
     
  17. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    Juwan's rebounding has dropped off considerably of late, but offensively he's playing better than he has in years. Hopefully the minutes he's getting doesn't wear him out by the end of the season. No question, Juwan's producing more for the team since Yao when down, compared to Chuck. He's getting more touches offensively compared to earlier in the season, and he's doing a good job with them. He's had some poor games, but I've been very happy with his play overall.

    As for Chuck, he shot 60% from the field in January. The league is littered with role playing bigs with very little offensive talent, and many of them can't be counted on to shoot over 55% like Chuck even when they limit themselves to point blank shots. Case in point, if Chuck is an offensive zero, what does that make Jason Collins who despite being 7 feet tall only manages 35% from the field?. Anyways, Chuck's rebounded ok, particularly on the offensive boards, but his overall play has been very up and down the last month. A big part of that is he's playing out of position most of the time. He needs to make up for his lack of size by out-hustling and out-quicking the opponent.

    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's funny.....I don't think anyone could've predicted I'd be so right about this. I wasn't gonna bring it up. But going back and reading some of the old posts, I was ridiculed pretty hard in here (only to be EXACTLY RIGHT about everything on Howard). Wow! I wonder how some of you still view this thread. 2/5/07


    [​IMG]</div>

    Before you congratulate yourself too much, I'd just like to point out that you said before the season you thought Juwan would block more shots. You also suggested that Juwan was a better rebounder. Silly. [​IMG]

    Right now, the situation favors Juwan. Yao isn't isn't playing, so Juwan's offense is needed by the team more than it usually would be. Consequentially, he's getting more minutes, and he's getting more touches in those minutes. Historically, Juwan has struggled somewhat when he's been forced into a more limited offensive role -- which will be the case when Yao returns. On the other hand, Chuck's had to play center for the most part, and that's clearly not his ideal position. He's an undersized PF, and he's an extremely undersized C. To Juwan's credit, he's taking advantage of his opportunities (not that he isn't still good for a few stinkers now and then -- 4 for 15 in his previous two games before Minnesota).
     
  18. blueracer

    blueracer JBB JustBBall Member

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    Juwan is still valuable for his offensive production as well as his average rebounding not counting the leadership he provides. The only problem is if the team gets out of sync he goes down also. Like the game against the Hornets.

    As for Hayes he needs to have composure when taking shots. Most of TMac's pass that he failed to convert are due to either rushing his shots or being too careful not to get blocked which in turn lacks power play. Same goes also for his putbacks. He needs to develop his own moves in creating his shots not just waiting for passes or scavenging for opportunities like putbacks.
     
  19. igotask8board

    igotask8board Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Did you see him tonight? Just in case you didn't.............

    Juwan Howard 20pts (9-11 fg's)8rebs, 3assist, 1stl

    Yea, he should go ahead and retire after this terrible preformance[​IMG]
    </div>

    eh'em sarcasm...I am well aware of his #s, I picked him up on my fantasy team a while back.

    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
    It's interesting how you've changed ur tune so quickly. I was reading ur earlier posts in this same thread and you were the harshest critic of Howard. Damn, what happened[​IMG]

    With all the hype you guys gave Hayes before the season, I'm a tad bit disappointed in his play. Sure he gets his share of offensive rebounds, but overrall he's been pretty much a non-factor. He's missing lay ups, missing free throws, and fouling at a extreme pace. However, Howard has been a HUGE reason for our success. He's been defending, rebounding, and scoring very efficiently. All of which I stated he'd do.

    After arguing 11 pages for Juwan Howard, it kinda feels good to come back and revisit this thread. Go Rockets!</div>


    Hellz yea, his inability to hit that open jumper consistently pissed me off during the 04-05 and 05-06 season. It's a good thing Hayes got the starting role in the beginning of the season, cuz Howard took that as a personal insult and worked/improved his jumper and overall game. I am proud of him, and I hope he can continue to be a key contributor for the Rockets the rest of the season and in the playoffs.

    All I said was his minutes should be limited because his D is non-existant at times. Whenever I said he was washed up or something along those lines it was just to get you frustrated, because it was kind of funny seeing you get so pissed off everytime someone said Hayes was better than Howard.

    But hey, you are right so far, and I admit that I was wrong and you were right. Just don't go around making bold statements like you're never wrong, because I believe it was me and you saying the Rockets would win 60 last season (barring injuries), but still we were wrong.
     
  20. igotask8board

    igotask8board Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Did you see him tonight? Just in case you didn't.............

    Juwan Howard 20pts (9-11 fg's)8rebs, 3assist, 1stl

    Yea, he should go ahead and retire after this terrible preformance[​IMG]


    It's interesting how you've changed ur tune so quickly. I was reading ur earlier posts in this same thread and you were the harshest critic of Howard. Damn, what happened[​IMG]

    With all the hype you guys gave Hayes before the season, I'm a tad bit disappointed in his play. Sure he gets his share of offensive rebounds, but overrall he's been pretty much a non-factor. He's missing lay ups, missing free throws, and fouling at a extreme pace. However, Howard has been a HUGE reason for our success. He's been defending, rebounding, and scoring very efficiently. All of which I stated he'd do.

    After arguing 11 pages for Juwan Howard, it kinda feels good to come back and revisit this thread. Go Rockets!</div>

    I am well aware of his #s, I picked J-Ho up on my fantasy team a while back. I still think his D could use some work, but his jumper is a lot more consistent this season.

    What happened? Juwan Howard started playing a lot better. He took Hayes taking the starting role at PF as a personal insult and revamped his game. He worked on his jumper and overall game.

    In this case the stats were lieing, and it seems like since Hayes got a 1 year deal he has been hustling a lot less.
     

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