Igotask..its not that hes hustling less, its that Yao isn't there. Hayes is put in the backup center role, so his production is going to drop. When Yao was healthy, and Hayes played at the 4, he played amazing. Notice also that he is fouling out more because he is constantly going against 7-foot centers.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan's rebounding has dropped off considerably of late, but offensively he's playing better than he has in years. Hopefully the minutes he's getting doesn't wear him out by the end of the season. No question, Juwan's producing more for the team since Yao when down, compared to Chuck. He's getting more touches offensively compared to earlier in the season, and he's doing a good job with them. He's had some poor games, but I've been very happy with his play overall.</div> My points early in the season were: -Hayes can't shoot -Hayes can't finish (with a hand in his face) -Struggles at the free throw line Which means he's a LIABILITY on offense. This was what I was tryin to say earlier in this thread, but you guys tuned me out. You can't give a player big minutes if he doesn't have any offensive game. Durvasa, you threw out every stat in the book to convince me he wasn't a liability. Could it be ur stats don't apply to everything? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As for Chuck, he shot 60% from the field in January. The league is littered with role playing bigs with very little offensive talent, and many of them can't be counted on to shoot over 55% like Chuck even when they limit themselves to point blank shots. Case in point, if Chuck is an offensive zero, what does that make Jason Collins who despite being 7 feet tall only manages 35% from the field?. Anyways, Chuck's rebounded ok, particularly on the offensive boards, but his overall play has been very up and down the last month. A big part of that is he's playing out of position most of the time. He needs to make up for his lack of size by out-hustling and out-quicking the opponent.</div> Not so fast Durvasa Chuck's shots are all point blank shots. I haven't even seen him "shoot" the ball in his career. He's actually shooting 55%, but he's still having trouble finishing at the rim (as I stated he would). Due to his height, it's only logical that he have difficulty finishing. For some reason you guys were convinced Howard was the one who couldn't finish. Juwan's overrall play has been outstanding. I think you guys got caught up in the hype a little. But ur assement of how Hayes would contribute as been exaggerated. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Before you congratulate yourself too much, I'd just like to point out that you said before the season you thought Juwan would block more shots. You also suggested that Juwan was a better rebounder. Silly. </div> Actually, I've been pleased with Howard's rebounding. Hayes is a slight better rebounder, but there both at about 6 per game. I'll take that. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Right now, the situation favors Juwan. Yao isn't isn't playing, so Juwan's offense is needed by the team more than it usually would be. Consequentially, he's getting more minutes, and he's getting more touches in those minutes. Historically, Juwan has struggled somewhat when he's been forced into a more limited offensive role -- which will be the case when Yao returns. On the other hand, Chuck's had to play center for the most part, and that's clearly not his ideal position. He's an undersized PF, and he's an extremely undersized C. To Juwan's credit, he's taking advantage of his opportunities (not that he isn't still good for a few stinkers now and then -- 4 for 15 in his previous two games before Minnesota).</div> Well, I agree Juwan has outplayed Hayes considerably. But it's not because of Yao injury. It's because Howard's outplayed him. Yao's presence won't have an dramatic effect on Howard's game. He's gonna go out and be the ultimate professional I predicted him to be. I don't think Hayes will neccessarily get more mins either. Battier will slide over and play more PF with Yao back. Ur biggest mistake was underestimating Howard's importance on this team. As a solid veteran, he just goes out and gets the job done. Even JVG looked over that earlier in the season. Now it's time for Bonzi.............. <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Igotask..its not that hes hustling less, its that Yao isn't there. Hayes is put in the backup center role, so his production is going to drop. When Yao was healthy, and Hayes played at the 4, he played amazing. Notice also that he is fouling out more because he is constantly going against 7-foot centers.</div> Let's not blame Yao for Hayes' lack of productivity. Even with Yao healthy, he was struggling. On most nights he's guarding the PF's anyway. So Yao's injury isn't much of an excuse
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">My points early in the season were: -Hayes can't shoot -Hayes can't finish (with a hand in his face) -Struggles at the free throw line Which means he's a LIABILITY on offense. This was what I was tryin to say earlier in this thread, but you guys tuned me out. You can't give a player big minutes if he doesn't have any offensive game. Durvasa, you threw out every stat in the book to convince me he wasn't a liability. Could it be ur stats don't apply to everything?</div> You last question there doesn't make any sense. Of course, statistics can't prove or disprove if a player is a "liability" -- because the term "liability" is subjective to begin with. I don't agree with the language you use to describe players, because it offers no insight at all into an actual analysis of player performance. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not so fast Durvasa Chuck's shots are all point blank shots. I haven't even seen him "shoot" the ball in his career. He's actually shooting 55%, but he's still having trouble finishing at the rim (as I stated he would). Due to his height, it's only logical that he have difficulty finishing. For some reason you guys were convinced Howard was the one who couldn't finish. Juwan's overrall play has been outstanding. I think you guys got caught up in the hype a little. But ur assement of how Hayes would contribute as been exaggerated. </div> Who cares what's Chuck shots are? Fact is, he's generally a high efficiency, low usage player. You want to say he's a liability on offense -- he'd be a "liability" if he was a low efficiency, low usage player like Ryan Bowen or Jason Collins. Or just take Ben Wallace. He's bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Chuck, and he rarely attempts shots that aren't around the basket. And, yet, he isn't near as efficient. He's shooting 45% and only 7.3 pts/40min on the season. Yuck. Again, if Chuck is a "liability", what in the world does that make these other players? Another indication that the terminology you use to describe players is pretty worthless. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, I've been pleased with Howard's rebounding. Hayes is a slight better rebounder, but there both at about 6 per game. I'll take that. </div> Hayes is clearly better if you actually look at rebounding. Saying they are both at about 6 per game obscures their true rebounding ability, because Juwan plays more minutes. I wouldn't call the difference "slight". Haven't we gone through this before? In Juwan's defense, he's played a lot more minutes alongside Dikemebe of late. It's natural his rebounds will dip a bit (just as its natural his offense would increase). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I agree Juwan has outplayed Hayes considerably. But it's not because of Yao injury. It's because Howard's outplayed him. Yao's presence won't have an dramatic effect on Howard's game. He's gonna go out and be the ultimate professional I predicted him to be. I don't think Hayes will neccessarily get more mins either. Battier will slide over and play more PF with Yao back. Ur biggest mistake was underestimating Howard's importance on this team. As a solid veteran, he just goes out and gets the job done. Even JVG looked over that earlier in the season. Now it's time for Bonzi..............</div> You could be right about Chuck not getting more minutes when Yao returns. I'm not going to predict the rotations JVG ends up with. There have been many games in which he's gone with Chuck at the end of games, and other times he goes with Juwan. As for my predictions on Howard's "importance" -- I never made such predictions. All my predictions are explicit in this thread; go through them if you wish. I was right on most of them; so far I was wrong about the PER. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's not blame Yao for Hayes' lack of productivity. Even with Yao healthy, he was struggling. On most nights he's guarding the PF's anyway. So Yao's injury isn't much of an excuse</div> The coach doesn't agree with you. He's pointed out (along with the Rockets beat writer, Jonathan Feigen), that Chuck is at a disadvantage with Yao out because he has to play center. I agree with them. Chuck is a productive role player, and as I've said before his value doesn't always show up in the box score numbers. After we beat the Sonics, Bob Hill said the following about Chuck: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> (on the Rockets) "It's tough for me to comment because Yao hasn't played for us in two of the games. Tracy (McGrady) is great and their guards are extra special with so much speed. I'm a real big Chuck Hayes fan . He does so much for their team. They are built to win. When Yao (Ming) gets back it will be significant for them." </div> Bob Hill has been coaching in the NBA for decades, so I think he knows a thing or two about player evaluation. Actual NBA people (coaches, scounts, GMs) recognize that Chuck is a solid ole player. You said he was a scrub who hardly deserved to be in the league. You make lots of strange proclamations, though, so maybe you weren't being serious when you said that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Sigh, I dont know why I'm gettign drawn into this again...but apparently you dont' understand the role of players. JHo is a scorer, he pretty much brings little else. He's a below average defender, below average rebounder (for that position). He does make little mistakes though. With Yao out, JHo's role becomes more important because we are losing our main scorer: YAO MING. You don't seem to understand team dynamics. You lose one player, another one becomes more important. With Yao Ming healthy, JHo's importance as a starter diminishes. The reason why Hayes plays so well with Yao is because he doesnt need to score with Yao on the court. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Let's not blame Yao for Hayes' lack of productivity. Even with Yao healthy, he was struggling. On most nights he's guarding the PF's anyway. So Yao's injury isn't much of an excuse</div> This shows your lack of understanding. Its not an excuse. Its the role of the player. Hayes was never meant to be a scorer. He was playing phenomenal when Yao and Tmac were both healthy. THIS IS PRIMARILY BECAUSE WE HAVE OUR TWO BEST SCORING OPTIONS ON THE COURT. I DONT KNOW HOW MUCH CLEARER THIS CAN GET. When either one of them are injured, the need for a scorer/playmaker becomes that much more important. Maybe you missed the first month when both were healthy..afterall thats when Jho played like **** and you were mysteriously quiet. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your understanding of basketball seems primarily limited to one stat...points per game. You never really look at anything else. Here are some simple stats...ones you can understand. These are done in per 48 minutes to measure productivity NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH JHo 45 24 26.8 17.3 3.1 8.0 11.1 2.8 0.76 0.16 2.5 1.13 4.7 0.1 Hayes 43 21 21.1 10.9 6.0 8.3 14.4 1.3 1.48 0.69 2.0 0.68 7.9 0.0 Things Jho are better at: points, assists Things Hayes are better at: Rebounding(note the offensive rebounding dif..which is also a form of offense), steals, blocks Notice here...now remember this is important....basketball isnt all about offense. I know this may come as a shock to you...but let me say this again (repeat repeat repeat) so that this can get through your rockheaded skull. WHEN YAO MING AND TMAC ARE ON THE FLOOR, WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER SCORER. You seem to forget who was ranked one in point differentials for when both Tmac and Yao were healthy (ranked in front of nash, nowitzki, duncan)...thats right..Hayes. You also conveniently leave out certain points. You never concede points, you ignore it. It is common sense that Hayes is gonna struggle at the five. Hes guarding much bigger men then he normally does (6'6 vs 7'0). How can you even possibly think that Yao Ming's absense had little effect on his playing? Durvasa brings up a good point...would you consider Ben Wallace trash? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Yao's presence won't have an dramatic effect on Howard's game. He's gonna go out and be the ultimate professional I predicted him to be. I don't think Hayes will neccessarily get more mins either. Battier will slide over and play more PF with Yao back. </div> Go check the game logs and compare the difference before Yao was injured and after he was injured. Juwan is simply gonna get more touches on offense when Yao is out (which means more points for Juwan). When Yao is healthy..who do you expect them to pass it to? With Yao, we run an inside out offense in which the three point shooters are spread, with Tmac free to roam. In this scenario, an offensive rebounder becomes much more important.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You last question there doesn't make any sense. Of course, statistics can't prove or disprove if a player is a "liability" -- because the term "liability" is subjective to begin with. I don't agree with the language you use to describe players, because it offers no insight at all into an actual analysis of player performance.</div> My point was you used ur +/- stats (from last season) too conclude Hayes was going to have a better season this year. In reality, ur +/- stats don't really measure how much of a gap there is between Howard's overrall ability, and Chuck's hustle plays. It's only effective in certain circumstances. Howard has CLEARLY been the better player. As I predicted, Howard regained his starting role thru better play (not because of injury). The title of the thread says "JUWAN or CHUCK?", and you'd have to be an idiot to say anybody but Howard.. Disagree? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares what's Chuck shots are? Fact is, he's generally a high efficiency, low usage player. You want to say he's a liability on offense -- he'd be a "liability" if he was a low efficiency, low usage player like Ryan Bowen or Jason Collins. Or just take Ben Wallace. He's bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Chuck, and he rarely attempts shots that aren't around the basket. And, yet, he isn't near as efficient. He's shooting 45% and only 7.3 pts/40min on the season. Yuck. Again, if Chuck is a "liability", what in the world does that make these other players? I care! Chuck is going to get an average of about 4 shots a game. Another indication that the terminology you use to describe players is pretty worthless.</div> I care!! On paper you'd have a point. But once more, in reality Chuck has been missing lay-ups far too often. The difference between Chuck Hayes and Ben Wallace is Ben has more to his offensive game. He has more responsibilities on defense & offense. Contrary to ur beliefs, Ben does occasianally "shoot" his jumpshots. Hayes on the other hand has 99% lay-ups and putbacks. If Ben had those type shots all game, his % would be close to 90%. Comparing the two is a terrible blunder on ur behalf. The fact is we need a back up PF who can score in traffic, rebound and defend. Hayes doesn't deserve more than 10minutes a game. Back up PF is our weakest position at this point. I wonder why......... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes is clearly better if you actually look at rebounding. Saying they are both at about 6 per game obscures their true rebounding ability, because Juwan plays more minutes. I wouldn't call the difference "slight". Haven't we gone through this before?</div> Howard plays more minutes, but he's doing everything across the board. His responsibilities are to score, defend, AND rebound. The fact he's scoring efficiently and still able to grab 6rebs a game is a tribute to his hardwork and dedication. If his job were strictly rebound and nothin else, his numbers would be as good as Hayes'. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">In Juwan's defense, he's played a lot more minutes alongside Dikemebe of late. It's natural his rebounds will dip a bit (just as its natural his offense would increase).</div> Correction......He's stepped up to the plate defensivley. His energy on defense has been pretty consistent all season. I'd disagree with the notion he's a "bad defender". That just ain't the truth. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You could be right about Chuck not getting more minutes when Yao returns. I'm not going to predict the rotations JVG ends up with. There have been many games in which he's gone with Chuck at the end of games, and other times he goes with Juwan.</div> If Yao comes back and Hayes isn't in the rotation, then that would go against every +/- stat you've been throwin out since october . If he's so efficient, theres no reason he shouldn't get playin time on a winning team. That'll prove my theory that +/- stats are slightly overrated at times. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The coach doesn't agree with you. He's pointed out (along with the Rockets beat writer, Jonathan Feigen), that Chuck is at a disadvantage with Yao out because he has to play center. I agree with them.</div> I have no problems with disagreein with JVG. My biggest disagreement was him leaving Howard outta the rotation earlier. That was one of his many mistakes. Hayes is at a disadvantage EVERY GAME. There really isn't a difference is his role then & now. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck is a productive role player, and as I've said before his value doesn't always show up in the box score numbers.</div> Bla..Bla..Bla...That excuse works for Battier who does everything. Not for Hayes who's role on this team is extremley limited. Nice try <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">After we beat the Sonics, Bob Hill said the following about Chuck:</div> So now ur posting old quotes lol. DESPERATION! I could go down the list of quotes for Howard. It's actually a good compliment, but my opinion is the same. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bob Hill has been coaching in the NBA for decades, so I think he knows a thing or two about player evaluation. Actual NBA people (coaches, scounts, GMs) recognize that Chuck is a solid ole player. You said he was a scrub who hardly deserved to be in the league. You make lots of strange proclamations, though, so maybe you weren't being serious when you said that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.</div> I already took that "scrub" statement back a long time ago. I make strange proclamations, but their generally TRUE. My opinions are usually unpopular, but I'm usually right so I guess it's a catch 22. Chuck gets praise around the league, but he wouldn't be playin more than 10mins a game on ANY other team in the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">As I predicted, Howard regained his starting role thru better play (not because of injury).</div> Could you at least prove that? All the evidence (the way the statistics changed so drastically after Yao was injured) seems to suggest that his injury had an enormous impact on both the role and performance of both players.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Could you at least prove that? All the evidence (the way the statistics changed so drastically after Yao was injured) seems to suggest that his injury had an enormous impact on both the role and performance of both players.</div> He can't prove it, because it's not true. Van Gundy gave his reasons for starting Juwan; it was a predictable move. Deke and Chuck together don't provide enough offense for his liking. JVG (correctly) said that Chuck played very well with the starting group when Yao and McGrady were healthy. Now, the question is when Yao returns, does Juwan retain the starting PF spot? I think it's very possible, likely even. Juwan is playing a well in the starting lineup, and Van Gundy isn't the type to "demote" a player who's playing well. Particularly a veteran.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Could you at least prove that? All the evidence (the way the statistics changed so drastically after Yao was injured) seems to suggest that his injury had an enormous impact on both the role and performance of both players.</div> His evidence always consists of what he sees. He rarely ever uses anything outside of that...basically the only reason why no one can win an argument is that his evidence is founded based on his viewpoints. Have you ever tried to win an argument with a stubborn boy? It's the same thing. If he "sees" Juwan playing well....thats that. If Juwan plays poorly...it never happened. He just waits till the next game he plays well to point out Juwan is great. Never mind logic. Never mind reasoning. All that is thrown out the door with Rock. He provides no logic to his reasoning other than omgomg Juwan can score and Hayes is a liability. Those become the basis for his arguments. All other rationale is ignored or fitted to his skewed viewpoint. Rock, are you going to ignore my post from above? Well..doesnt matter, you never directly answer/address my points anyways. You just go on with your rhetoric....reminds me of a politician. The original question was never who was better. You want to measure who is more benificial to the rockets, because in the end, thats what counts. The original thread was who should start. Hayes has PROVED he was more effective with our original starters of Yao, Battier, Alston, and Mcgrady. Let me ask you this(which you have ignored numerous of other times). Do you think Rockets will be more effective with Hayes and our original 4, with Howard providing scoring off the bench with Deke (as he has been). Or would you prefer Hayes playing along with Deke off the bench, thus limiting are scoring options? Do you honestly believe that Howard will be effective playing with Yao and Tmac, getting the shots he is getting with our two primary scorer? This time..at least answer one of these questions before going off on your usual rhetoric (and trying to be clever with my name....which was actually a play off the word fool to rhyme with 82, so no need to pat yourself on the back for "coming up" with that). As for layups...Juwan misses a higher percentage of his layups than hayes. Only reason why its noticeable with Hayes is because, those are the only types of shots he attempts. Luther Head and Rafer Alston also misses a higher percentage of layups...yet I don't see you complaining about that either.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">My point was you used ur +/- stats (from last season) too conclude Hayes was going to have a better season this year. In reality, ur +/- stats don't really measure how much of a gap there is between Howard's overrall ability, and Chuck's hustle plays. It's only effective in certain circumstances. Howard has CLEARLY been the better player. As I predicted, Howard regained his starting role thru better play (not because of injury). The title of the thread says "JUWAN or CHUCK?", and you'd have to be an idiot to say anybody but Howard.. Disagree?</div> Disagree to what? What's the issue? If Juwan is "better" than Chuck? Look, frankly I'm not interested in that question. I think Juwan is more experienced, and he's more skilled. Against certain matchups on some nights, he might even be more effective defensively. To try to sum up all their qualities and say player A is better than player B is a somewhat pointless exercise, in my opinion. What concerns me is their respective strengths and weaknesses, and how they should be utilized in the rotation to maximize the prospects of our team. Since last season, I argued that we'd be better off if Chuck had a larger role on the team, and Juwan had a lesser role. Meaning, I wanted Chuck to play more than 15 minutes a night, and wanted Juwan to play less than 30. I said I would like to see how we do this season starting Chuck Hayes. You ridiculed that idea, but our coaching staff apparently agreed, and Chuck started until Yao went down. Our starting lineup ended up playing very well with that combination earlier in the season. Right now, I think Chuck would still work well in that starting group if we have Yao and McGrady together. I think his skill set compliments what they do better. At the same time, I think Juwan's abilities would be better utilized in second unit. Again, for me it's not which player is "better" -- that's an endless debate that will go no where -- it's about coming up with the best rotation. For any practical purposes, that's what really matters. Agree? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I care!! On paper you'd have a point. But once more, in reality Chuck has been missing lay-ups far too often. The difference between Chuck Hayes and Ben Wallace is Ben has more to his offensive game. He has more responsibilities on defense & offense. Contrary to ur beliefs, Ben does occasianally "shoot" his jumpshots. Hayes on the other hand has 99% lay-ups and putbacks. If Ben had those type shots all game, his % would be close to 90%. Comparing the two is a terrible blunder on ur behalf. The fact is we need a back up PF who can score in traffic, rebound and defend. Hayes doesn't deserve more than 10minutes a game. Back up PF is our weakest position at this point. I wonder why.........</div> Firstly, Chuck isn't the backup PF. He's been playing center. When Chuck and Juwan are on the court together, Chuck is the center. Our "backup PF", if you want to pin that label on anyone, is Battier or Bonzi. And do you have anyone in mind that can score in traffic, rebound, and defend? If such a player is available, and he doesn't have a bloated contract, I'd be happy adding him to the team. Regarding the Chuck vs. Ben comparison, there are a couple things wrong with your argument. First, you say that if Ben was only attempting shots around the basket, he'd shoot a much higher percentage. Well, lets take a look at their shot charts this season: Ben Wallace Shot Chart http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/durvasa/hayes_hotzone.jpg"> Yousignificantly[/i] more efficient (even when you just look at their shots around the basket). I'm not going to draw the conclusion that Chuck is a more skilled offensive player, or he'd beat Ben in a one on one game. But he's clearly a more effective and efficient scorer, despite his physical limitations. He doesn't get any spectucular dunks like Ben, and everything he does offensively appears very simple, so you think he's just an unskilled offensive zero. Appearances can be deceiving. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Howard plays more minutes, but he's doing everything across the board. His responsibilities are to score, defend, AND rebound. The fact he's scoring efficiently and still able to grab 6rebs a game is a tribute to his hardwork and dedication. If his job were strictly rebound and nothin else, his numbers would be as good as Hayes'. </div> In theory that's possible, but that's not his job so there's no point crediting him for hypothetical accomplishments. If he was an effective scorer, AND he rebounded like Chuck, he'd obviously be a much better player than he is. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Correction......He's stepped up to the plate defensivley. His energy on defense has been pretty consistent all season. I'd disagree with the notion he's a "bad defender". That just ain't the truth. </div> His "energy" on defense might be consistent, I don't know, but he's been up and down in terms of his effectiveness on defense. I could say the same thing about Chuck, of course, but I think Chuck is a better defender overall. I'll admit, the gap in this area isn't as wide as I initially thought. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Yao comes back and Hayes isn't in the rotation, then that would go against every +/- stat you've been throwin out since october . If he's so efficient, theres no reason he shouldn't get playin time on a winning team. That'll prove my theory that +/- stats are slightly overrated at times. I have no problems with disagreein with JVG. My biggest disagreement was him leaving Howard outta the rotation earlier. That was one of his many mistakes. Hayes is at a disadvantage EVERY GAME. There really isn't a difference is his role then & now. Bla..Bla..Bla...That excuse works for Battier who does everything. Not for Hayes who's role on this team is extremley limited. Nice try </div> You say that Chuck not being added back to the rotation by JVG "proves" the stats are worthless. That statement implies that JVG is a perfect decision maker. But then you say you have no problem disagreeing with JVG. This is a contradiction. And your argument following the "Bla..Bla..Bla.." makes no sense to me either. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So now ur posting old quotes lol. DESPERATION! I could go down the list of quotes for Howard. It's actually a good compliment, but my opinion is the same. I already took that "scrub" statement back a long time ago. I make strange proclamations, but their generally TRUE. My opinions are usually unpopular, but I'm usually right so I guess it's a catch 22. Chuck gets praise around the league, but he wouldn't be playin more than 10mins a game on ANY other team in the NBA.</div> It was a quote from last week. That's an "old quote"? Yes, please list some quotes for Howard from another coach/scout/GM. Something from the last 5 years, preferably.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">His evidence always consists of what he sees. He rarely ever uses anything outside of that...basically the only reason why no one can win an argument is that his evidence is founded based on his viewpoints. Have you ever tried to win an argument with a stubborn boy? It's the same thing. If he "sees" Juwan playing well....thats that. If Juwan plays poorly...it never happened. He just waits till the next game he plays well to point out Juwan is great. Never mind logic. Never mind reasoning. All that is thrown out the door with Rock. He provides no logic to his reasoning other than omgomg Juwan can score and Hayes is a liability. Those become the basis for his arguments. All other rationale is ignored or fitted to his skewed viewpoint.</div> OK....I'm tired of this. My view point has been a)Juwan Howard is a better player than Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard is outplayin Chuck Hayes this season. If you think that's "skewed" or "stubborn" then we'll do a poll asking "who's having the better season for the Rockets Juwan Howard or Chuck Hayes". Then we'll see who's view point is more logical. NOTE:The title of Durvasa's thread is 'Juwan or Chuck? If I'm correct, ur taking Chuck Hayes over Howard? <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock, are you going to ignore my post from above? Well..doesnt matter, you never directly answer/address my points anyways. You just go on with your rhetoric....reminds me of a politician. The original question was never who was better. You want to measure who is more benificial to the rockets, because in the end, thats what counts. The original thread was who should start. Hayes has PROVED he was more effective with our original starters of Yao, Battier, Alston, and Mcgrady. Let me ask you this(which you have ignored numerous of other times). Do you think Rockets will be more effective with Hayes and our original 4, with Howard providing scoring off the bench with Deke (as he has been). Or would you prefer Hayes playing along with Deke off the bench, thus limiting are scoring options? Do you honestly believe that Howard will be effective playing with Yao and Tmac, getting the shots he is getting with our two primary scorer? This time..at least answer one of these questions before going off on your usual rhetoric (and trying to be clever with my name....which was actually a play off the word fool to rhyme with 82, so no need to pat yourself on the back for "coming up" with that).</div> I hate answering ur questions because you'll forget next week and go on the same hissfit ur doing now. But AGAIN, Howard should start regardless of WHO'S on the court. I'll say it again, JUWAN HOWARD SHOULD START REGARDLESS OF WHO'S ON THE COURT FOO. Instead of backtrack everything Durvasa says, how bout coming with something orginal for a change <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As for layups...Juwan misses a higher percentage of his layups than hayes. Only reason why its noticeable with Hayes is because, those are the only types of shots he attempts. Luther Head and Rafer Alston also misses a higher percentage of layups...yet I don't see you complaining about that either.</div> Simple. Because Juwan, Head, and Rafer take a more variety of shots. If you leave any one of those guys open there gonna make you pay. Howard has midrange game, jump hook. Rafer has 3pt shot, and tear drop. Luther hits 3's. What does Chuck do? NOTHIN! He's mainly a decoy. 99% of his shots are under the rim with nobody guarding him. His JOB IS TOO MAKE THOSE SHOTS. If ur in the NBA and you can't finish under the rim 95% of the time then you don't belong. Missing a lay up a game should not be permitted on a NBA team. At that, he's not hitting his free throws.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Simple. Because Juwan, Head, and Rafer take a more variety of shots. If you leave any one of those guys open there gonna make you pay. Howard has midrange game, jump hook. Rafer has 3pt shot, and tear drop. Luther hits 3's. What does Chuck do? NOTHIN! He's mainly a decoy. 99% of his shots are under the rim with nobody guarding him. His JOB IS TOO MAKE THOSE SHOTS. If ur in the NBA and you can't finish under the rim 95% of the time then you don't belong. Missing a lay up a game should not be permitted on a NBA team. At that, he's not hitting his free throws.</div> This one takes the cake....I mean of all the stupid replies, this one by far takes the cake. You are basically saying its ok to miss a layup if you take other variety shots. But if you take only layups....you have to make 95% of them? I seriously don't follow your logic here. He is rarely ever wide open simply because of the amount of time he spends under the basket. If you are wide open underneath the basket in Rockets style of basketball...there is seriously something wrong with the defense. Do you even watch the games? A lot of the shots he makes underneath the basket results from quick passes in a moment of lapse (usually from Tmac who draws the attention). And he is extremely quick in releasing the ball. It is quite different from being wide open. Even Juwan wouldnt be able to make those type of finishes (he's too slow). I agree with you on the free throws... I would much rather have Hayes finishing like that than any other player (with the exception of Tmac and Yao). I've seen your man Juwan miss many layups. This post just proves my earlier point that you only notice what you want to notice. If other players miss a layup..no big deal. Its the layups that Hayes misses that draws your attention (since you dislike him so much). You make stupid claims like Hayes always gets blocked...but the fact is, Juwan gets blocked under the basket more than Hayes and that Hayes finishes better under the basket than Juwan does. You are unwilling to concede either of these points simply because you dont "notice" it. WHat do you mean he does nothing....again repititon, repitition, repitition. Offense does not consist of JUST SCORING. I know its hard..but keep your eyes off the person with the ball and actually focus on the motion of offense. You tend to forget the killer screen Hayes set for Tmac to hit the game sealing three (I forget against which team..may be San Antonio). You also tend to forget Offensive Rebounds play a huge role. Movement without the ball is just as important. It keeps the defense off balance enough to pass to the open man. I mean...I know this stuff must be like hocus pocus to you..but there is a reason that people arent standing still waiting for the ball to be passed to them. As for the Durvasa's comments, I don't read what he says. I read them after I respond to you. The comment about Ben wallace was edited after I read his post. If we happen to say the same thing, that means we come up with the same conclusion...you know that happens, and I disagree with Durvasa plenty on clutchfans (just not on this subject regarding Hayes vs. Howard). Edit: I went back and reread durvasa's and my post....I dont see where you come up with me backtracking his points. A lot of times we focus on completely different part in terms of opinion. The only parts covered that were similar ARE FACTS NOT OPINIONS. FACT: HAYES PLAYS BACKUP CENTER. FACT: HOWARD'S OFFENSIVE OUTPUT INCREASED AS AFTER YAO'S INJURY FACT: HAYES LAYUP PERCENTAGE IS NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE LOOK IT UP. FACT: STATS SHOW THAT TMAC AND YAO ARE MORE EFFECTIVE WITH HAYES. LOOK THAT UP. None of this is my opinion. Anything else for you to makeup? I ask again..do you even watch the games? I'm quite surprised by the fact that you DIDNT EVEN KNOW HAYES PLAYED BACKUP CENTER.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This one takes the cake....I mean of all the stupid replies, this one by far takes the cake. You are basically saying its ok to miss a layup if you take other variety shots. But if you take only layups....you have to make 95% of them? I seriously don't follow your logic here. He is rarely ever wide open simply because of the amount of time he spends under the basket. If you are wide open underneath the basket in Rockets style of basketball...there is seriously something wrong with the defense. Do you even watch the games? A lot of the shots he makes underneath the basket results from quick passes in a moment of lapse (usually from Tmac who draws the attention). And he is extremely quick in releasing the ball. It is quite different from being wide open. Even Juwan wouldnt be able to make those type of finishes (he's too slow). I agree with you on the free throws... I would much rather have Hayes finishing like that than any other player (with the exception of Tmac and Yao). I've seen your man Juwan miss many layups. This post just proves my earlier point that you only notice what you want to notice. If other players miss a layup..no big deal. Its the layups that Hayes misses that draws your attention (since you dislike him so much). You make stupid claims like Hayes always gets blocked...but the fact is, Juwan gets blocked under the basket more than Hayes and that Hayes finishes better under the basket than Juwan does. You are unwilling to concede either of these points simply because you dont "notice" it. WHat do you mean he does nothing....again repititon, repitition, repitition. Offense does not consist of JUST SCORING. I know its hard..but keep your eyes off the person with the ball and actually focus on the motion of offense. You tend to forget the killer screen Hayes set for Tmac to hit the game sealing three (I forget against which team..may be San Antonio). You also tend to forget Offensive Rebounds play a huge role. Movement without the ball is just as important. It keeps the defense off balance enough to pass to the open man. I mean...I know this stuff must be like hocus pocus to you..but there is a reason that people arent standing still waiting for the ball to be passed to them. As for the Durvasa's comments, I don't read what he says. I read them after I respond to you. The comment about Ben wallace was edited after I read his post. If we happen to say the same thing, that means we come up with the same conclusion...you know that happens, and I disagree with Durvasa plenty on clutchfans (just not on this subject regarding Hayes vs. Howard). Edit: I went back and reread durvasa's and my post....I dont see where you come up with me backtracking his points. A lot of times we focus on completely different part in terms of opinion. The only parts covered that were similar ARE FACTS NOT OPINIONS. FACT: HAYES PLAYS BACKUP CENTER. FACT: HOWARD'S OFFENSIVE OUTPUT INCREASED AS AFTER YAO'S INJURY FACT: HAYES LAYUP PERCENTAGE IS NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE LOOK IT UP. FACT: STATS SHOW THAT TMAC AND YAO ARE MORE EFFECTIVE WITH HAYES. LOOK THAT UP. None of this is my opinion. Anything else for you to makeup? I ask again..do you even watch the games? I'm quite surprised by the fact that you DIDNT EVEN KNOW HAYES PLAYED BACKUP CENTER.</div> All this and you STILL didn't answer my question...........JUWAN or CHUCK? If you had to drop one and keep the other. Who? Very simple question for you. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I know what you are probably thinking. He is a smart veteran role player, he brings consistency, he provides leadership in the lockeroom, etc. I am not going to dispute any of this, but none of those qualities make him the right guy for this team. It only makes him the right voice to have in the lockerroom. Since the end of the 2004-2005 season, Houston has gone in a positive direction by making an effort to get younger, quicker and more athletic by replacing the older veterans in David Wesley, Jon Barry, Derek Anderson, Scott Padgett and Moochie Norris with Luther Head, Keith Bogans (who left Houston to head back to Orlando), Kirk Snyder, Shane Battier, Chuck Hayes, and Bonzi Wells. Howard is the only 33+ year-old veteran still playing starter minutes for Houston, and it is a problem that needs to be addressed.</div> Wow...."None of those qualities make him right for this team". That's a bold statement Durvasa. Do you still feel Juwan Howard's not right for the team?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Wow...."None of those qualities make him right for this team". That's a bold statement Durvasa. Do you still feel Juwan Howard's not right for the team?</div> Not sure when I wrote that or what it was a response to. A link to the original post? Based on his first two seasons with the Rockets, I advocated that he have a reduced role on the team. His performance this season (excluding the first month, when he was atrocious) has been much better. His scoring efficiency is at a career high, in fact. If he's going to play like this, I don't have a problem with him playing significant minutes. If he reverts back, then his minutes should be slashed -- regardless of his work ethic, leadership, or being generally a nice guy. Nothing bold about that.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Not sure when I wrote that or what it was a response to. A link to the original post?</div> It was the original posts you wrote in this thread....or was that a link? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Based on his first two seasons with the Rockets, I advocated that he have a reduced role on the team. His performance this season (excluding the first month, when he was atrocious) has been much better. His scoring efficiency is at a career high, in fact. If he's going to play like this, I don't have a problem with him playing significant minutes. If he reverts back, then his minutes should be slashed -- regardless of his work ethic, leadership, or being generally a nice guy. Nothing bold about that.</div> So I'll ask you what the same question this thread asks.......Juwan or Chuck? Which one would you keep if you had to choose one for this team. Very easy question
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">All this and you STILL didn't answer my question...........JUWAN or CHUCK? If you had to drop one and keep the other. Who? Very simple question for you. </div> This isnt the question of the thread. I thought the point of this thread was who should start. My answer to that is..with Yao Ming out and Deke in, Juwan should start. With Yao Ming and Tmac healthy..Hayes (just like the beginning of the season). The question isnt who we should drop.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It was the original posts you wrote in this thread....or was that a link?</div> Oh, I didn't write that. That was from the article. It didn't sound like something I'd say. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So I'll ask you what the same question this thread asks.......Juwan or Chuck? Which one would you keep if you had to choose one for this team. Very easy question</div> Right now, I'd keep Juwan. If we have Yao and McGrady healthy, it's a tougher decision. Chuck can't play as many minutes because he fouls too much, but I think he's more effective per minute alongside our stars. Then again, Juwan is more experienced and that could be more valuable for us in the playoffs. I think I'd lean towards Juwan, considering how well he's played the last couple months. Looking past this season, I'd take Chuck since he's younger and has more scope for improvement.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This isnt the question of the thread. I thought the point of this thread was who should start. My answer to that is..with Yao Ming out and Deke in, Juwan should start. With Yao Ming and Tmac healthy..Hayes (just like the beginning of the season). The question isnt who we should drop.</div> So you refuse to answer my question....AGAIN. After ur little hissyfit about me lol. Since my "view point" has alwayz been Juwan Howard's more important to this team than Chuck Hayes, that's obviously not too far from ur belief either (or Durvasa's). You realize this. That's why you refuse to answer the "who would you drop between Juwan Howard or Chuck Hayes question. Because you'd concede that with all the things Hayes does, Howard's overrall more important to the team. That's simply been my stance the whole thread. What's so "skewed" and "stubborn" about that? So now that we've come to conclusion Howard's a keeper. With the way he's playin right now, why would you insert him back on the bench? You do watch basketball, don't you? With Yao back he's gonna get better looks (in which he'll knockdown). It's a matter of quality over quantity. Chuck's strength is offensive rebounding. But if the team's shooting great then guess what Foo, THERE ISN'T GONNA BE AN OFFENSIVE REBOUND. We already lead the league in defensive boards. Howard should and prolly WILL start. If Hayes starts, we'll see how well he does. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Right now, I'd keep Juwan. If we have Yao and McGrady healthy, it's a tougher decision. Chuck can't play as many minutes because he fouls too much, but I think he's more effective per minute alongside our stars. Then again, Juwan is more experienced and that could be more valuable for us in the playoffs. I think I'd lean towards Juwan, considering how well he's played the last couple months.</div> Exactly.....agreed .
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So you refuse to answer my question....AGAIN. After ur little hissyfit about me lol. Since my "view point" has alwayz been Juwan Howard's more important to this team than Chuck Hayes, that's obviously not too far from ur belief either (or Durvasa's). You realize this. That's why you refuse to answer the "who would you drop between Juwan Howard or Chuck Hayes question. Because you'd concede that with all the things Hayes does, Howard's overrall more important to the team. That's simply been my stance the whole thread. What's so "skewed" and "stubborn" about that? So now that we've come to conclusion Howard's a keeper. With the way he's playin right now, why would you insert him back on the bench? You do watch basketball, don't you? With Yao back he's gonna get better looks (in which he'll knockdown). It's a matter of quality over quantity. Chuck's strength is offensive rebounding. But if the team's shooting great then guess what Foo, THERE ISN'T GONNA BE AN OFFENSIVE REBOUND. We already lead the league in defensive boards. Howard should and prolly WILL start. If Hayes starts, we'll see how well he does. Exactly.....agreed .</div> Well..thats easy, just replace start with keep. My sentiment is the same. With Yao and Tmac healthy, I would keep hayes. With the situation we have now, Juwan is more important. I never did doubt that. My entire point was that Hayes was more important playing with Yao and Tmac. If Yao Ming would have never been injured, my view is that Hayes would have been more important to the team, though it would be close. Juwan's increase in offensive productivity over the past few months would prove useful off the bench when are starters are resting.
Juwan seems great now because of the injury. If Yao never got hurt we wouldn't be discussing this. Hayes would be starting and Howard would be coming off the bench. I'd also like to see Howard play Center and see how well he does. Howard isn't going to do that well with Yao and Tracy because he will have less opportunities to score and thats all there is to it.
