<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Howard is a better overrall player, but i seriously dought you guys will EVER admit that. He's a good defender (without fouling), above average rebounder, good scorer, and high basketball IQ. The type of veteran that every team needs. </div> Juwan is not a good defender. I'll never understand that part of your argument. Do you only register the instances when he forces a miss and just erase from your mind all the times he's slow on a rotation or he lets his guy go right around him and score? He has decent size for a PF and he can defend the post alright (though he got abused by Harrington on multiple occasions yesterday), but he is not by any means a good defender. Hey, there's a reason he doesn't foul. He doesn't defend that much! He's been a good scorer in the last month. He wasn't a good scorer last year, or the year before. Certainly not the first month of this season. I'll be very suprised if he can maintain his scoring efficiency in the month of December for the rest of the season. <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/> TS% pts/40min<br/>04/0549.4% 14.4<br/>05/0649.9% 14.8<br/>career 51.4% 18.6<br/>------------------------<br/>Nov38.4% 6.8<br/>Dec54.4% 13.2<br/>Season 49.4% 10.8<br/></div> That 54.4 TS% is far better than what he's done the last two seasons, or his career for that matter. In fact, Juwan's career best TS% was 53% in his second year. Keep in mind that the league average has consistently been at about 53% for the last 10 years. I'm glad Juwan is producing right now, because we can use all the help we can get. But, like I said, it would be very surprising for hiim to continue the season at his December pace. Based on his career trajectory, we should expect that TS% to dip down to around 50% when all is said and done. That's not very good, but par for the course for Juwan. I think you've gotten too used to mediocrity.
I thought Howard and Hayes were about the same, but watching this Nets-Houston game, Howard is proving me wrong. He is schooling people, getting offensive rebounds, scoring jumpers. Howard is playing pretty good, right now in my mind, he has a slight edge on Hayes. Hayes has seemed to fade off a little and is not really doing good, Howard is playing awesome.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I thought Howard and Hayes were about the same, but watching this Nets-Houston game, Howard is proving me wrong. He is schooling people, getting offensive rebounds, scoring jumpers. Howard is playing pretty good, right now in my mind, he has a slight edge on Hayes. Hayes has seemed to fade off a little and is not really doing good, Howard is playing awesome.</div> Individually, Howard is a better player (if they were to go 1v1). But the thing is, Hayes playing style works really well when T-mac and Yao are in the game. It is obvious on the stats in point differentials. Hayes gets more points when T-mac is in. T-mac seems to be the only one who can make those quick passes to Hayes when he is cutting in. Yao brings a defensive presence that clears the lane which allows Hayes to move in easily and defend. On the offensive end, Yao's ability to dominate inside draws defenders towards him, which allows Hayes to get offensive rebounds (which require position and timing). With Yao out, Hayes may not get the position he wants, and it will be much tougher for him to get the rebound. Here is the thing, without the superstars, Juwan may be more useful, since he is a scoring option. With the superstars, Hayes is a much better option.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes not having the touch that Howard has makes up for his finish around the basket which Howard doesn't really have. If you're talking about me, then you're wrong because I never "hated" Howard except in the beginning of the year I favored Howard over Hayes.</div> Are you watchin the Rockets? Hayes misses layups atleast once every game and gets his shot blocked atleast once every game. He even missed a layup tonight. I'm not sure who's been givin you this information, but Hayes has been TERRIBLE around the basket. He's doin everything I said he would do. Even the Rocket announcer stated how Hayes misses too many damn layups. So if you don't believe them, ask Gene Peterson <div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes has zero offense? Are you on drugs? He is the best player around the basket for the Rockets. He has zero offense? See this is the difference, I could just come out of nowhere and say Howard has no defense. This is the thing, Howard is more of an offensive threat and Hayes is more of a defensive threat. Both of them are different but are almost the same when it comes down to comparisons. Who over hyped him? I never ever Hayes is way too good for Howard.</div> That has to be the most innaccurate comment in Justbball history!!. On a team with Yao Ming and Tmac, ur tellin me that Chuck Hayes (who misses atleast one layup a game) is the best player under the basket, um ok Howards jump hook is more effective than any move in Hayes's asernal. Even Bonzi has a better game under the basket As far as Howards defense, it's FAR from horrible. If anything, Hayes's defense has been bad at times. Why do you think he fouls so damn much? Is that a part of defending, not fouling? If you can't play D without fouling, then ur defense isn't that good. Howard & Hayes aren't close in comparison. Hayes is one dimensional, and Howard's not. Simple as that. There are more elements that Howard is better in. The only thing Hayes is prolly better at is rebounding, and that's only slightly. Howard had 5 offensive rebounds last game along with a double-double. And he had a double double tongiht, go figure All of you have been completley WRONG about Howard thus far. BTW, Howard DID start tonight too
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Howard & Hayes aren't close in comparison. Hayes is one dimensional, and Howard's not. Simple as that. There are more elements that Howard is better in. The only thing Hayes is prolly better at is rebounding, and that's only slightly. Howard had 5 offensive rebounds last game along with a double-double. And he had a double double tongiht, go figure All of you have been completley WRONG about Howard thus far. BTW, Howard DID start tonight too</div> That's wrong. Steals, blocks, moving feet on defense, setting picks, moving without the ball, drawing charges, post defense. These are all things Chuck Hayes is better at. And Chuck isn't "slightly" better than Juwan at rebounding. He's much better. His rebounding% his far higher on the season (14.4% to 9.1% on the offensive boards, and 19.2% to 18.3% on the defensive boards). That's a significant difference. Here's an interesting stat. Since Chuck joined the team last year, he's had 10 games with more than 10 rebounds. In that span, Juwan (despite playing more minutes and more games) has had only 9 double-digit rebound games. Chuck has had 46 steals and 20 blocks in that time (1066 minutes). Juwan has had only 42 steals and 5 blocks while getting twice the minutes (2020)! And it's been well documented that we give up far less points per possession with Chuck on the court than Juwan on the court. Both last year and this year. That's been consistent. Chuck is a far better defensive player. Does defense, rebounding, setting good screens, and moving without the ball all constitute a single dimension now? Juwan does the following things better: he's a better shooter (and foul shooter), he's a slightly better ball-handler (though that isn't used too much in our offense), and he's a better passer (again, not used too much in our offense). That's basically it. Juwan has some nifty footwork on his post moves, but since he actually converts on a post up maybe 30% of the time that's hardly an asset. I would say there are at least as many fundemental basketball skills which actually benefit the Rockets that Chuck Hayes is better at. And for the PF position on our team, particularly with our full roster, what Chuck brings to the table has more value in my opinion. For the time being, he'll have to play out of position and that's probably going to hurt his productivity. But he'll still have a positive impact. I'm sure of it. Against Indiana, btw, we were +6 with Chuck on the court and -8 with Juwan on the court. And against New Jersey, we were +22 with Chuck and +15 with Juwan. Looking at New Jersey game at little more closely: with Juwan, without Chuck: +3 with Juwan, with Chuck: +12 without Juwan, with Chuck: +11 Interesting. We'll see if this trend continues. As for missing layups, 82games.com shows Chuck is 60% on the season on shots around the basket that aren't tip in attempts (off the offensive boards) or dunks. Juwan is 48.7% on such shot attempts. That's this season, as of 12/25. Chuck converted on a much higher percentage on such shots last year as well. You seem to only notice when Chuck flubs a layup attempt (he's usually rushing the shot onto the backboard to get it up before the defender can contest it). When Juwan gets the ball close to the basket, instead of immediately going up with it like Chuck he'll often turn his back to the basket and throw up a weak hook shot that generally misses. Consequentially, he ends up actually shooting a worse percentage. But apparently that doesn't bother you any.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's wrong. Steals, blocks, moving feet on defense, setting picks, moving without the ball, drawing charges, post defense. These are all things Chuck Hayes is better at.</div> If he's good at moving his feet, why is it that he's always in foul trouble? If ur constantly in foul trouble every game, does that equate to good defense? What part of defense is that? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And Chuck isn't "slightly" better than Juwan at rebounding. He's much better. His rebounding% his far higher on the season (14.4% to 9.1% on the offensive boards, and 19.2% to 18.3% on the defensive boards). That's a significant difference.</div> Juwan Howard is only 2rebs less than Chuck Hayes, bottom line. All ur crazy percentages don't really tell much, because he's averagin 7rebs and Howard averaging 5. Plus, within the last 12 games Howard has picked up his rebounding so the gap has narrowed. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Here's an interesting stat. Since Chuck joined the team last year, he's had 10 games with more than 10 rebounds. In that span, Juwan (despite playing more minutes and more games) has had only 9 double-digit rebound games. Chuck has had 46 steals and 20 blocks in that time (1066 minutes). Juwan has had only 42 steals and 5 blocks while getting twice the minutes (2020)!</div> I could careless bout last year's stats, that ain't relevant <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And it's been well documented that we give up far less points per possession with Chuck on the court than Juwan on the court. Both last year and this year. That's been consistent. Chuck is a far better defensive player. Does defense, rebounding, setting good screens, and moving without the ball all constitute a single dimension now?</div> C'mon dude, ur sounding desperate now. He's very foulprone, that means his defense is at times sloppy. If he moves his feet THAT well, he shouldn't have much problem gettin in foul trouble. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan does the following things better: he's a better shooter (and foul shooter), he's a slightly better ball-handler (though that isn't used too much in our offense), and he's a better passer (again, not used too much in our offense). That's basically it. Juwan has some nifty footwork on his post moves, but since he actually converts on a post up maybe 30% of the time that's hardly an asset. I would say there are at least as many fundemental basketball skills which actually benefit the Rockets that Chuck Hayes is better at. And for the PF position on our team, particularly with our full roster, what Chuck brings to the table has more value in my opinion. For the time being, he'll have to play out of position and that's probably going to hurt his productivity. But he'll still have a positive impact. I'm sure of it.</div> Ok, if there are fundamentals that benefit the Rockets better with Hayes, why is Howard the one on the court when the games on the line? I can count atleast 2 or 3 times Howard has hit big shots in the 4th quarter. Hayes playin outta position is a COP OUT. It's a silly excuse, especially after we already had that discussion early in the season and you actually defended Hayes as a center. Now ur sayin he's not capable without Tmac or Yao out Howard had a double-double tonight, which means he rebounded AND scored points. We got BOTH from Howard, it obviously isn't hurting his productivity. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Against Indiana, btw, we were +6 with Chuck on the court and -8 with Juwan on the court. And against New Jersey, we were +22 with Chuck and +15 with Juwan.</div> I really don't respect ur +/-% because there so many other variables that go into that you seem not to mention (like who ur playin with). Juwan actually outscored Hayes AND outrebounded him against Indiana, just like he did tonight. Like I said, Howard's gets the job done better. The fact Yao or Tmac are out is NOT AN EXCUSE. Howard is producin better right now, PERIOD <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Looking at New Jersey game at little more closely: with Juwan, without Chuck: +3 with Juwan, with Chuck: +12 without Juwan, with Chuck: +11</div> Like I said, I don't really respect ur +/- stats. Howard gave us 12pts & 11rebs. He outscored AND outrebounded Hayes AGAIN. What more can the guy do? Aslong as he keeps this play up, my point has been made. My guy is producin and you guys are already backtrackin <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As for missing layups, 82games.com shows Chuck is 60% on the season on shots around the basket that aren't tip in attempts (off the offensive boards) or dunks. Juwan is 48.7% on such shot attempts. That's this season, as of 12/25. Chuck converted on a much higher percentage on such shots last year as well. You seem to only notice when Chuck flubs a layup attempt (he's usually rushing the shot onto the backboard to get it up before the defender can contest it). When Juwan gets the ball close to the basket, instead of immediately going up with it like Chuck he'll often turn his back to the basket and throw up a weak hook shot that generally misses. Consequentially, he ends up actually shooting a worse percentage. But apparently that doesn't bother you any.</div> Well, once again ur decieving. Hayes doesn't take as many shots, so his % will naturally be higher. If a guy takes 7 shots a game, and the other takes 3 shots a game, I'd bet my money the guy with 3shots a game will have a higher %. But at the end of the day, Chuck is NOT a good finisher. Unless he's WIDE OPEN, he'll either get swatted or completley miss. Even Bill Worrell, Bullard, and Gene Peterson have made mention of his problems under the basket. Do you trust their opinion?
Rock4life, I'd just like to point out that when Howard wasn't producing, you were willing to give him time. Now that's he's doing something, you were right all along? Also, Hayes picks up the fouls because he actually contests, and helps from the weakside. I've seen Howard shy away from contact just so he won't get a foul, but he's giving up 2 points in the process. What would you rather have? 2 points from a dunk through the lane or two free throws to earn the 2 points?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If he's good at moving his feet, why is it that he's always in foul trouble? If ur constantly in foul trouble every game, does that equate to good defense? What part of defense is that?</div> Good defensive players generally foul more than bad defensive players. No one would say Dennis Rodman was a bad defensive player just because he was in foul trouble often. Chuck's sometimes overly aggressive and fouls will be called. It's an area he needs to improve. Finding the right balance between his aggressive defense and not fouling so much. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan Howard is only 2rebs less than Chuck Hayes, bottom line. All ur crazy percentages don't really tell much, because he's averagin 7rebs and Howard averaging 5. Plus, within the last 12 games Howard has picked up his rebounding so the gap has narrowed. </div> The gap has narrowed. And it will widen again before all is said and done. As for the "crazy percentages", that's the correct way to really evaluate a player's rebounding prowess. What matters isn't the total number of rebounds you collect, but the percentage of rebounds you get. In this case, just looking at what they get per minute is good enough, but I figured I'd be more precise by citing the percentages and differentiating between offensive and defensive boards (there's a crucial functional difference between the two). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could careless bout last year's stats, that ain't relevant </div> Uh huh. And we should forget about the first month too, right? In fact, let's just forget about any games where Juwan doesn't play well. Because it's clearly just JVG's fault when that happens. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">C'mon dude, ur sounding desperate now. He's very foulprone, that means his defense is at times sloppy. If he moves his feet THAT well, he shouldn't have much problem gettin in foul trouble. </div> Yes, if he moves his feet even better, he'll cut down the fouls. That doesn't mean he's not better at moving his feet than Juwan. Juwan simply doesn't defend as aggressively or go after rebounds as aggressively, which is why he doesn't foul as much. You watch the games, so you should know that Chuck is much quicker on the floor at chasing down loose balls and making rotations than Juwan. No point for you to argue this just for the sake of arguing. It's clear as day. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, if there are fundamentals that benefit the Rockets better with Hayes, why is Howard the one on the court when the games on the line? I can count atleast 2 or 3 times Howard has hit big shots in the 4th quarter. Hayes playin outta position is a COP OUT. It's a silly excuse, especially after we already had that discussion early in the season and you actually defended Hayes as a center. Now ur sayin he's not capable without Tmac or Yao out Howard had a double-double tonight, which means he rebounded AND scored points. We got BOTH from Howard, it obviously isn't hurting his productivity. </div> Hayes has been on the court at the end of close games at least as often as Juwan. Sometimes, the coach feels Juwan is playing better or will make less mistakes. But I'm curious why you'd make this argument to validate Juwan when you've been complaining incessantly throughout the season that Van Gundy doesn't know what he's doing. You don't agree with all the decisions JVG makes, and I certainly don't either. Regarding playing Hayes as a center, I'll admit that I might have overestimated what he'd be able to do at that position. We'll see how that turns out. Juwan has played well the last two games. His per-minute individual numbers on the season still aren't quite as good as Chuck's (though he's starting to catch up). By month: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/> MPG pts/25minreb/25minTS%<br/>----------------------- Nov ---------------------<br/>Juwan16.8 4.2 6.138.4%<br/>Chuck21.2 6.9 8.257.3%<br/>----------------------- Dec ---------------------<br/>Juwan26.9 8.4 6.855.7%<br/>Chuck23.4 4.6 7.354.8%<br/></div> Just looking at individual stats, Chuck was certainly better than Juwan in the first month. And Juwan has been better than Chuck in December. Overall, right now their PER is about the same (Chuck is just slightly ahead: 11.7 to 11.4). The difference is that Chuck does a lot more good things that aren't captured by the individual stats than Juwan. Hence the far better +/- numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I really don't respect ur +/-% because there so many other variables that go into that you seem not to mention (like who ur playin with).</div> Are you forgetting my detailed breakdown of their +/- with different player combinations, which I've done on multiple occasions this season? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan actually outscored Hayes AND outrebounded him against Indiana, just like he did tonight. Like I said, Howard's gets the job done better. The fact Yao or Tmac are out is NOT AN EXCUSE. Howard is producin better right now, PERIOD</div> He's producing more points and more rebounds "right now." I'll agree. That's pretty much all you can say. At this point. And what will he be doing when the season is over? I want a prediction. We can't predict what their playing time will be, because that's dependent on the coach (and neither of us have much confidence in his decisions regarding the PF, it seems). <font color=""Red"">So, per 25 minutes, how much more will Juwan score than Chuck by the end of the season? And how much more will Juwan rebound that Chuck? You've skirted the issue long enough. Time to make a real prediction now.</font> My prediction: Juwan: per 25 minutes, 8 points, 6.3 rebounds, 50% TS% Chuck: per 25 minutes, 6 points, 7.8 rebounds, 56% TS% I also think Chuck will end up with a higher PER (per minute individual stat rating). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, I don't really respect ur +/- stats. Howard gave us 12pts & 11rebs. He outscored AND outrebounded Hayes AGAIN. What more can the guy do? Aslong as he keeps this play up, my point has been made. My guy is producin and you guys are already backtrackin </div> Wait ... so you're point has been made based on a few games? Weren't you bashing me for posting their stats after 11 games? We'll both agree that the "point" will be made at the end of the season. If you don't care about the plus/minus stuff, fine. We'll ignore defense and all the intangibles, and base it purely on individual numbers. I think Chuck's PER will be better than Juwan's when all is said and done. Are you confident enough in Juwan's ability to produce that he'll have a better PER by the end of the season? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, once again ur decieving. Hayes doesn't take as many shots, so his % will naturally be higher. If a guy takes 7 shots a game, and the other takes 3 shots a game, I'd bet my money the guy with 3shots a game will have a higher %. But at the end of the day, Chuck is NOT a good finisher. Unless he's WIDE OPEN, he'll either get swatted or completley miss. Even Bill Worrell, Bullard, and Gene Peterson have made mention of his problems under the basket. Do you trust their opinion?</div> No, I don't. Their opinions are all over the map. You know that. Chuck's not a great finisher. But he's adequate. He's a better finisher than Juwan certainly. You say Chuck doesn't take as many shots. Well, since we're talking specifically about shots around the basket you're the one who's misleading. Fact is, Chuck takes more shots around the basket than Juwan. Specifically on the shots I mentioned (inside shots that aren't tip-ins or dunks) Chuck gets 3.24 such attempts a game, while Juwan gets only 1.6. Because Chuck gets more such shots, and because that's the only shots he takes, he'll miss more. But he's still making a higher percentage. Juwan doesn't take them as often (he's not as good at cutting to the basket off screens), and when he does he usually elects to throw up a weak hook shot that misses half the time.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life, I'd just like to point out that when Howard wasn't producing, you were willing to give him time. Now that's he's doing something, you were right all along? Also, Hayes picks up the fouls because he actually contests, and helps from the weakside. I've seen Howard shy away from contact just so he won't get a foul, but he's giving up 2 points in the process. What would you rather have? 2 points from a dunk through the lane or two free throws to earn the 2 points?</div> Perfect post. I agree with that. Also, like foo82 said, Hayes plays better with Tmac/Yao and Howard plays better with the benchers like Wells/Head/Mutombo. Howard is showing some improvement from the beginning of the season, but that doesn't automatically mean Hayes shouldn't be given credit for what he has done. Both are good, but play in their ways. Also, I'll give credit to Howard for stepping up since Yao has been injured.
Don't get me wrong. Hayes is a good hustle player for his size. He's a slightly better rebounder than I thought he was. But I think you guys overhyped him because of his play last year. You were a little too quick to jump on the bandwagon. He's a good kid and fun too watch. But he's not nearly the overrall player Juwan Howard is. Some of you said Howard was useless and "washed up". But he's doin everything I stated he could do. Scoring, rebounding, defending etc....But it's really no surprise to me
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Don't get me wrong. Hayes is a good hustle player for his size. He's a slightly better rebounder than I thought he was. But I think you guys overhyped him because of his play last year. You were a little too quick to jump on the bandwagon. He's a good kid and fun too watch. But he's not nearly the overrall player Juwan Howard is. Some of you said Howard was useless and "washed up". But he's doin everything I stated he could do. Scoring, rebounding, defending etc....But it's really no surprise to me</div> Well, I'm glad you're at least giving Chuck some credit. Juwan is playing much better than I would have expected him to play based on his last couple years and particularly his first month when he was just completely out of sorts. He's shown a lot more offensive versatility and better rebounding of late. While it stings a bit to have to hear you gloat about it (), he's helping us win games so I'm happy. I still think that when all is said and done, Chuck is going to be the better player for us (I'll stand by all the predictions I made in this thread). Right now (specifically, since Yao has been out), I'll admit Juwan is outplaying him. Without a low post presence like Yao in there, we'll need some extra offense from our bigs and that's what he's providing for us. Hope he keeps it up.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life, I'd just like to point out that when Howard wasn't producing, you were willing to give him time. Now that's he's doing something, you were right all along?</div> So ur tellin me his string of double-doubles is a fluke? That's exactly what's he been doin his whole career, it's no accident that he's playin like he is. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also, Hayes picks up the fouls because he actually contests, and helps from the weakside. I've seen Howard shy away from contact just so he won't get a foul, but he's giving up 2 points in the process. What would you rather have? 2 points from a dunk through the lane or two free throws to earn the 2 points?</div> I've seen Hayes shy from contact too, so that's not relevant. Howard's defense is above average. He's not a defensive stopper, but he's FAR from a liability. It's not a guranteed 2pts when the opponents goin against Howard, so I'm not quite understanding ur logic. His all around game is what makes him a better fit on this team. Hayes is another Ryan Bowen, but slightly upgraded.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So ur tellin me his string of double-doubles is a fluke? That's exactly what's he been doin his whole career, it's no accident that he's playin like he is.</div>His whole career now? The past two seasons included? I'm giving him fair credit, just that you weren't giving Hayes credit. Juwan Howard's best rebounding average was 8.4 man, and that doesn't sure doesn't sound "double-digit". <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I've seen Hayes shy from contact too, so that's not relevant. Howard's defense is above average. He's not a defensive stopper, but he's FAR from a liability. It's not a guranteed 2pts when the opponents goin against Howard, so I'm not quite understanding ur logic. His all around game is what makes him a better fit on this team. Hayes is another Ryan Bowen, but slightly upgraded.</div>When did I say Howard was a liability on defense? I mean, for all your bashing on Hayes, you have to admit to the fact that Hayes is a better defender? And don't use that "slightly" crap. The fact is the team is miles better defensively with Hayes than Howard. Btw, I've seen your boy Kobe Bryant take bad shots too. Does that mean he's a chucker and takes wild shots? Ron Artest has screwed up on defense too, does that make him a bad defender? We're looking at the volumes here man, and the volume is Juwan has shied away from contact on help situations 7 times out of 10. That is, if he rotates in time at all.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So ur tellin me his string of double-doubles is a fluke? That's exactly what's he been doin his whole career, it's no accident that he's playin like he is. </div> I'm not going to saying its definitely a fluke or its an accident. Maybe he's genuinely become a good rebounder. But it sure is unexpected. Juwan's rebounding rate (an estimate for percentage of rebounds he grabs while on the court) this season is 15.4. For perspective, his career average is only 11.4, and his previous career high for a season was only 13.4 in his rookie year. He's just had three consecutive dougle digit rebounding games. He accomplished that only once before as a Rockets, and that was last season in a stretch of three games where he was averaging 46 MPG.
Ok...I do realize u guys are tired of me throwin Howard's play back in ur faces. I just can't get over the fact that some of you basically said his career was over and that Chuck Hayes (strictly hustle player) was better than him. I knew I'd eventually take alot of heat for standing by Howard, but I knew what the guy was capable of. I've been watchin the Rockets since the Sleepy Floyd dayz so I know what I'm talking about Anywayz, heres my proposition to you all. Since it's pretty much safe to say that Howard is CLEARLY a better overrall player than Chuck Hayes and all of you wrong in ur quick assements. If you each message me with "I was totally wrong about Hayes bein better than Howard" than I promise as ROCK4LIFE, that I will NEVER make mention of the Howard vs Hayes debate again. Simple as that...Think about it
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Anywayz, heres my proposition to you all. Since it's pretty much safe to say that Howard is CLEARLY a better overrall player than Chuck Hayes and all of you wrong in ur quick assements. If you each message me with "I was totally wrong about Hayes bein better than Howard" than I promise as ROCK4LIFE, that I will NEVER make mention of the Howard vs Hayes debate again. Simple as that...Think about it</div> All my predictions for the season are in this thread. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll point it out then. You won't, because you haven't made a prediction on what their stats will be by season's end. That was convenient. You don't want to say something that might actually require evidence to back up. But as far as I'm concerned, you've already lost the argument. You said Chuck would never amount to being more than a scrub, and we couldn't win consistently with him having an important role on the roster. Well, he was only part of the best starting lineup in the league (by far) in November and the beginning of December. You were wrong, but I don't expect you to ever admit it.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">All my predictions for the season are in this thread. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll point it out then. You won't, because you haven't made a prediction on what their stats will be by season's end. That was convenient. You don't want to say something that might actually require evidence to back up. </div> I don't need evidence to back this one up....Jus point to the next Rocket and we'll analyze it. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But as far as I'm concerned, you've already lost the argument. You said Chuck would never amount to being more than a scrub, and we couldn't win consistently with him having an important role on the roster. Well, he was only part of the best starting lineup in the league (by far) in November and the beginning of December. You were wrong, but I don't expect you to ever admit it.</div> He doesn't play a big role on our team. He did in early in the season, but his time has slipped a lil bit. Howard's play has forced JVG to play him. Hayes isn't a scrub, i'll admit that. But the numbers just don't tell the HUGE gap between these guys. Howard's doin it in more ways than just scoring. Bullard stated last night after the game, "Where would we be without Juwan Howard" and I ask you guys that same question.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't need evidence to back this one up....Jus point to the next Rocket and we'll analyze it. </div> You don't need evidence. That explains quite a lot. Regardless of what actually happens, you've already made up your mind. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He doesn't play a big role on our team. He did in early in the season, but his time has slipped a lil bit. Howard's play has forced JVG to play him.</div> Chuck's been consistently playing 20-25 MPG throughout the season. He's playing an important role. And Howard's play, the poor play of Padgett/Novak, and injuries to McGrady/Yao have forced JVG to play Juwan more, to be more exact. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes isn't a scrub, i'll admit that. But the numbers just don't tell the HUGE gap between these guys. Howard's doin it in more ways than just scoring..</div> How many ways, outside of scoring, is Howard better than Chuck Hayes? As I see it: Juwan's a better scorer, ball-handler, and passer. I feel that Juwan also has better stamina (since his role isn't to be an "energizer bunny" like Chuck), so he's capable of playing 40 MPG if necessary. Chuck's a better rebounder (particularly on the offensive glass), a better screener, and a better and more versatile defender. Right now, Juwan is on a hot streak offensively and he's definitely outplaying Chuck. But inevitably he'll cool off, at which point I think Chuck's defensive versatility, rebounding, and all-around hustle can benefit the team much more. Also while Yao is out, Juwan is going to get more scoring opportunities (and right now he's really taking advantage of it and playing with high efficiency). When Yao returns and with McGrady also in the lineup, Juwan's role as a scorer will be significantly reduced. That's why I feel Chuck is a better complimentary player to those two; and it's why I've been saying since last season that I think Chuck's a better fit in the starting lineup, while Juwan can do most damage in the second unit when he has more opportunities to score. I still think that's the case.
