Knicks-Nuggets Brawl

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But why should Karl be punished more than Thomas?</div>

I was just saying that Karl shouldn't have had his starters out there. When the opposing coach starts putting in his bench players when the game is out of hand, it's equivalent to putting up the white flag. Usually, the winning coach puts in his bench, too. Then there's no problem if they continue to score more.

My take is there's no mercy rule, so any losing coach or players will take exception to it. Especially, if it's on their home court.

But Karl kept his starters in. The play before the one where Smith gets horse collared, Smith did a reverse dunk or something. Now, I'm sure Collins wasn't going to let Smith do something like that again when he was on his way to a breakaway. Collins should get a big fine and suspension, and it was flagrant, but there have been worse ones.

 

That is Beatean Wife Syndrome... You blame Karl for getting hit with a cheapshot because he left his guys out there. That's hilarious to me.

 

We're not blaming Karl, we're just saying he shouldn't have left his starters out there. And that he must've had some ulterior motive for doing so.

There were many acts of un-professionalism that led to the brawl. His decision to leave the starters in and mock the Knicks was one of the many.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Nuggets were brutalizing the Knicks on their home court, 119-100 with 1:15 remaining, making a mockery of Thomas' salary rich club. And yes, stars Anthony and Camby were still in the game, maybe even because Denver coach George Karl wanted to hit up Thomas for firing Larry Brown, Karl's old University of North Carolina buddy.</div>

From Dan Wetzel's article. Even others believe he had a reason for doing so.

 

Nuggets are screwed up. Knicks prolly not because they wouldn't have made the playoffs, but Nuggets are screwed.

 

Thats BS. Coaches leave their starters in at the end of blowouts all the time. For years and years and years now. I've seen JRich and Baron stay in to close out several Warrior blowouts (not that we've had many, lol). What Karl did in and of itself was a rather normal thing; these are big boys; this is the NBA and there was NO excuse for the horse-collar.

Course, how Devner reacted was even worse, but IMO Karl was doing what many coaches do often and it's a normal part of the game.

But this thing avout Karl getting revenge on Thomas... lol that's horseshit too. It's not the first time they faced, mind you... I just don't see it.

My take is that NY sucks; everyone there is feeling a lot of pressure because pretty much everyone there sucks. Isiah has had one of the worst "post-career" careers after playing that any man has ever experienced in the history of sports. NY ownership is crazy. NY fans are fanatics. The papers are ruthless mercenaries.

The vibe in NY is all bad, and this frustration felt by the team is what precipitated this whole thing. They were getting their asses whooped, and because they couldn't do anything about it within the rules of the game, that frustration carried over to a flagrant foul.

I mean, how many times have you seen a coach go for a touchdown with a big lead? I think KC or SD did that to the Niners this year; up by 30 and still going for 7. You don't see a brawl there, no?

Players and coaches have to be bigger than that. If your getting your ass whooped, you should be thinking about how you can get better and do it to the other team the next time, not trying to whine "no fair! no fair!" and "I don't wanna play anymore!" and "I hate you! boo hoo!"

 

<div class="quote_poster">AnimeFANatic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There were many acts of un-professionalism that led to the brawl. His decision to leave the starters in and mock the Knicks was one of the many.</div>

I disagree. Coaches leave their starters in at the end of blowouts all the time. For years and years and years now. I've seen JRich and Baron stay in to close out several Warrior blowouts (not that we've had many, lol). What Karl did in and of itself was a rather normal thing; these are big boys; this is the NBA and there was NO excuse for the horse-collar.

Course, how Denver reacted was even worse, but IMO Karl was doing what many coaches do often and it's a normal part of the game.

But this thing about Karl getting revenge on Thomas... lol that's BS too, IMO. It's not the first time they faced, mind you... I just don't see it.

My take is that NY sucks; everyone there is feeling a lot of pressure because pretty much everyone there sucks. Isiah has had one of the worst "post-career" careers after playing that any man has ever experienced in the history of sports. NY ownership is crazy. NY fans are fanatics. The papers are ruthless mercenaries.

The vibe in NY is all bad, and this frustration felt by the team is what precipitated this whole thing. They were getting their asses whooped, and because they couldn't do anything about it within the rules of the game, that frustration carried over to a flagrant foul.

I mean, how many times have you seen a coach go for a touchdown with a big lead? I think KC or SD did that to the Niners this year; up by 30 and still going for 7. You don't see a brawl there, no?

Players and coaches have to be bigger than that. If your getting your ass whooped, you should be thinking about how you can get better and do it to the other team the next time, not trying to whine "no fair! no fair!" and "I don't wanna play anymore!" and "I hate you! boo hoo!"

 

Isiah's problem was not finding talent, it was the fact he couldn't put together a balanced team. When he was out finding guys like Crawford, Qrich, Curry, and such, he never thought about longterm plan, defense, chemistry or what not. A lot of times it felt like he was just making moves for the sake of making moves and so the Knicks could make the playoffs in the current year. And now he's got Steve Francis and it's like what is he going to do with two max paid streetballing guards that all demand the ball and refuse to run play sets and cannot play together.

It's been one disaster after another. For any max paid guard we hope they better be able to play with an inside player or else it just won't work. Inside and outside players have to be compatible.

 

<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That is Beatean Wife Syndrome... You blame Karl for getting hit with a cheapshot because he left his guys out there. That's hilarious to me.</div>

If sports is a microcosm of society (more now like a microcosm of PRIVILEGED society), then this incident should reflect our values.

In this case, I think it was Karl and the Nugz who were doing the beating. I suppose you're just going to sit there and take out any whipping they dish out. It's starters vs scrubs!

If I was Knicks fan I would be upset if my team just gave up and got the snot beat out of them. It would be one thing if the Nugz scrubs were doing it, but a whole different matter when it's the first team vs scrubs.

For example, what if the Nugz had to score 10 more points and then they would have the NBA record for handing out the worst defeat ever? If they were playing their scrubs and were able to accomplish it, then they get their reward justly. However, to leave the Nugz starters in there just to embarass the Knicks serves no purpose.

It doesn't have to be the Knicks or Nugz or Karl or Isiah. Better to leave the perps out of this.

 

Again, I feel differently: it's one thing if your coaches or teammates are specifically doing things to show up the other team, like taunting, gesturing or yelling stuff and laughing. If you're being deliberately disrespectful outside of the context of the game, then you're a punk.

However, if a team is just pouring it on another team, hey, that's part of the game! Sure, many coaches put in scrubs at the end of blowouts, but that's usually to either avoid injuries to your starters, save some of their gas for the next game, or to give the "scrubs" a chance to show what they can do. However, even then, you want your scrubs to score -- it's their time to shine and have fun. While it's a nice gesture to "ease up" at the end of the game, lol, it's not really a part of the game. Say you have a 15 pt lead with 2 minutes left: you don't think the other team would love to hit a couple threes, get a few steals, come back and win the game on a last second thunder-dunk, breaking the glass on your chrome-dome? Hell Yeah they would love to come back, and they would be screaming and celebrating all over the court!

The final minutes of the game is not for niceties. Play the game your best, finish the game as best you can -- regardless of the score -- and then, hey, after the game you go over and shake hands and show respect and honor towards your opponent. Crap, you can go give Isiah Thomas a big ol' hug and kiss for all I care, just finish the game first.

These are the pros and pros are paid to perform at their highest level for 48 minutes. Coaches throughout history have left starters in at the end of games for a variety of reasons -- maybe you want to see how your new rookie "scrub" draft pick plays alongside your franchise point guard? Regardless, rather than whining about the situation, the opposing coach should focus on his own team, and try to get something meaningful out of the final minutes -- maybe draw some plays or tell your new draft pick to go 1-on-1 a few times -- not try to retalliate for your own inadequacies.

Oh, and sports are not a "microcosm" of our society, IMO -- sports is a fantasy world where reality gets tossed out the window. These players are getting paid more than 10 people will ever earn in their lifetime. They get paid not to go to work -- but rather to go to the playground a few times a week -- and they get adored by millions of people regardless of their character, ethics, or values, but rather how well they play a silly game.

Crap, you could be a street thug murdering drug dealer, but if you can dunk you'll get an And-1 contract or an NBA contract and a shoe-deal and millions of people will carry their children up to you to touch you and talk to you and get your autograph like your the pope or something.

These players have entire staffs of people who do everything for them -- from providing their wardrobes to shopping for their groceries to asnwering their phone calls to stretching them out to cooking for them to handling legal responsibilities for them, etc, all so they can focus their life-energy on recreation -- basketball.

Sports is the last place I'd look for a good slice of representative social values.

It's entirely possible to play the game with honor and respect and still try your hardest to win for 48 minutes, not 44 minutes. Just because you are leaving your starters in or trying your hardest to finish the game strong doesn't make you a bad person. However, even if a coach does have ill-intentions by doing so, the opposing coach needs to be above that, and rather take it as an opportunity to build character within his own clubhouse, not lash out in frustration because you've been struggling all season.

 

I'd be pretty pissed if the Nuggets blew out the Warriors and kept their starters in while we have our bench in being reversed dunked (i'm not big on showboating) on and such.

But whatever, this brawl showed the ugly side of a lot of people. And now that Carmelo tainted his image in both the NBA and the commercial world, I ain't complaining.

 

I agree AF, I think pretty much eveyone invloved looked like a jerk, except Najera who was just trying to break things up. That the fight spilled into the stands with children nearby, and that a lady got trampled in her chair, makes me queasy. Things are different now than they used to be, and the "street-thug" mentality is commonplace in sports today. I mean, look at Stephen "gang-bangin" Jackson -- he's a professional player, a role model for millions of kids, yet most of those kids' moms wouldn't even want homeboy in their own home if they knew him.

But Melo -- man, Melo -- that guy is laughs. Between getting caught with dope and blaming his friend, and performing on a "don't be snitchin'" video, and the gangsta front, and now this -- I hope he gets 20 games so Denver gives up their playoff seed -- to us!

 

This talk about the Nuggets deserved it because they were winning is so lame, its all about the scoreboard, the Nuggets were winning because they were scoring, they earned it. No one was giving them points. Even if it was bad sportsmanship, nothing justifies a flagrant foul, that's not even going for the ball.

I hope the Nuggets suffer because they deserve the punishment, had they just played the game there would be no problem. They are professionals, that means they need to know that they are responsible for their actions on the court.

 

Artest's flagrant foul on Dunleavy seemed even worse than what happened to JR. But Dunleavy didn't retaliate, or perhaps didn't want to (I don't think anyone wants to mess with a incredibly strong and incredibly insane Artest). Players really need to learn how to be professional. I don't care if you're from the "hood" or whatever, it doesn't give you the right to act like a kid. I guess thats one of the reasons why I like Ellis so much, he grew up in the same or worse background than these thugs in the NBA and look at how professional he is.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I was just saying that Karl shouldn't have had his starters out there. When the opposing coach starts putting in his bench players when the game is out of hand, it's equivalent to putting up the white flag. Usually, the winning coach puts in his bench, too. Then there's no problem if they continue to score more.

My take is there's no mercy rule, so any losing coach or players will take exception to it. Especially, if it's on their home court.

But Karl kept his starters in. The play before the one where Smith gets horse collared, Smith did a reverse dunk or something. Now, I'm sure Collins wasn't going to let Smith do something like that again when he was on his way to a breakaway. Collins should get a big fine and suspension, and it was flagrant, but there have been worse ones.</div>
I think the reverse Smith Dunk was at 4:15 in the 4th, while the Brawl was at the 1:15 mark.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I feel differently: it's one thing if your coaches or teammates are specifically doing things to show up the other team, like taunting, gesturing or yelling stuff and laughing. If you're being deliberately disrespectful outside of the context of the game, then you're a punk.

However, if a team is just pouring it on another team, hey, that's part of the game! Sure, many coaches put in scrubs at the end of blowouts, but that's usually to either avoid injuries to your starters, save some of their gas for the next game, or to give the "scrubs" a chance to show what they can do. However, even then, you want your scrubs to score -- it's their time to shine and have fun. While it's a nice gesture to "ease up" at the end of the game, lol, it's not really a part of the game. Say you have a 15 pt lead with 2 minutes left: you don't think the other team would love to hit a couple threes, get a few steals, come back and win the game on a last second thunder-dunk, breaking the glass on your chrome-dome? Hell Yeah they would love to come back, and they would be screaming and celebrating all over the court!</div>

I grew up in a different era. We didn't pour it on if the game was out of reach and the coach put in the scrubs. If the winning team did that, then it was trying to show you up. What's the point of running up the score if the game is already decided? If it's to get a record, then you get it the fair way.

Let's say you're in a war or combat situtation and your commader gives up rather that losing the rest of his men. Does the enemy say no and kill 100 more men before accepting your surrender? That's really dirty.

One doesn't usually look for those things in games, but when it's happening on the court you know it and get angry.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The final minutes of the game is not for niceties. Play the game your best, finish the game as best you can -- regardless of the score -- and then, hey, after the game you go over and shake hands and show respect and honor towards your opponent. Crap, you can go give Isiah Thomas a big ol' hug and kiss for all I care, just finish the game first.

These are the pros and pros are paid to perform at their highest level for 48 minutes. Coaches throughout history have left starters in at the end of games for a variety of reasons -- maybe you want to see how your new rookie "scrub" draft pick plays alongside your franchise point guard? Regardless, rather than whining about the situation, the opposing coach should focus on his own team, and try to get something meaningful out of the final minutes -- maybe draw some plays or tell your new draft pick to go 1-on-1 a few times -- not try to retalliate for your own inadequacies.</div>

That's the way it is in most games. It's called sportsmanship. You don't keep piling it on unless it's an even match like scrubs vs scrubs; Then they should be playing their hardest.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh, and sports are not a "microcosm" of our society, IMO -- sports is a fantasy world where reality gets tossed out the window. These players are getting paid more than 10 people will ever earn in their lifetime. They get paid not to go to work -- but rather to go to the playground a few times a week -- and they get adored by millions of people regardless of their character, ethics, or values, but rather how well they play a silly game.

Crap, you could be a street thug murdering drug dealer, but if you can dunk you'll get an And-1 contract or an NBA contract and a shoe-deal and millions of people will carry their children up to you to touch you and talk to you and get your autograph like your the pope or something.

These players have entire staffs of people who do everything for them -- from providing their wardrobes to shopping for their groceries to asnwering their phone calls to stretching them out to cooking for them to handling legal responsibilities for them, etc, all so they can focus their life-energy on recreation -- basketball.

Sports is the last place I'd look for a good slice of representative social values.</div>

Sports used to be more representative of social values -- follow the rules, good sportsmanship, work hard and then get paid, breaking the color barrier, diversity, etc. In fact, some major universities used to teach that subject.

Now, I have to agree with you. A lot of it has become something for the privileged. Big money has everything to do with it. Some of the values in sports still remains, but not many people care about that. It's all about winning now. Still, there has to be some social values inherent is sports or we wouldn't make such a big deal out of it. It's still a big deal with the Olympics and it's still politicized.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's entirely possible to play the game with honor and respect and still try your hardest to win for 48 minutes, not 44 minutes. Just because you are leaving your starters in or trying your hardest to finish the game strong doesn't make you a bad person. However, even if a coach does have ill-intentions by doing so, the opposing coach needs to be above that, and rather take it as an opportunity to build character within his own clubhouse, not lash out in frustration because you've been struggling all season.</div>

I have a hard time grasping that concept. If the losing coach waives the white flag and puts in his scrubs, it's not good sportsmanship to keep piling on by leaving your starters in for 48 mins. It's not a smart move either as they could get injured. Look what's going to happen to Carmelo, the Nuggets best player. Also, JR Smith and maybe Camby. The Knicks only lose their scrubs. I'm sure George Karl will like that. LOL.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's the way it is in most games. It's called sportsmanship. You don't keep piling it on unless it's an even match like scrubs vs scrubs; Then they should be playing their hardest.</div>

What I'm saying is it's not poor sportsmanship to close out a game aggressively, and it's not poor sportsmanship to have starters in at the end of blowouts. It is poor sportsmanship, however, to taunt, gesture at or otherwise directly show up another team. But to try your hardest to win going away, I don't see that as poor sportsmanship at all. The Warriors have ended several blowouts with JRich, Murphy and others still on the floor, and I never heard anyone on this board complain about it then.

The problem isn't that Melo and JR Smith were on the floor; the problem is the way they were behaving.

 

I think i have complained when our starters are in during blow outs maybe not here. I know i think more in terms that i want to see POB or IKe or the young guys get some PT more so than not piling on. I also worry a starter might get injured in garbage time. I know i used to bitch when Fisher would be in there in garbage time, and i wanted Monta to get on the floor.

I just hope CAlderon is ok.

Isn't stern's mandate that worst offense besides going into the stands is throwing a punch? I have to think Melo the coward will get in excess of 20 games for that sucker punch. I believe on Espn they said both robinson and j.r. smith threw or attempted to throw punches so they both should be facing extended suspensions. Collins who made the flagrant foul, i am sure will only be facing the original foul. I didnt see if there were players off the bench from either team, but that could add up.

Kind of funny that Mello has tried to cultivate this tough guy image then he does this hit and run thing. I remember seeing Melo on that punked show.... fitting name punk. Man when he hit and run like that ..... what a coward.... i wonder what that does for his image?

reminded me of shaq hitting brad miller from behind.... chicken sh*t stuff

After that pathetic showing vs toronto vs a boshless raptors team... i am not sure if Mellow or no mello that we will be there looking at the 8th spot... I sure hope they wake up.

 

Man, the Knicks forum has some funny stuff over there.

I like the "Chicken Run" movie poster spoof.

http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...t=63572&page=11

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What I'm saying is it's not poor sportsmanship to close out a game aggressively, and it's not poor sportsmanship to have starters in at the end of blowouts. It is poor sportsmanship, however, to taunt, gesture at or otherwise directly show up another team. But to try your hardest to win going away, I don't see that as poor sportsmanship at all. The Warriors have ended several blowouts with JRich, Murphy and others still on the floor, and I never heard anyone on this board complain about it then.

The problem isn't that Melo and JR Smith were on the floor; the problem is the way they were behaving.</div>

I hear ya, so we'll agree to disagree. I don't remember the Warriors having all their starters near the end of game playing against scrubs, but I could be wrong.

If Melo and someone like Camby weren't on the floor, then there wouldn't have been a problem. There wouldn't be a chance for them to get injured when the contest was decided or having them lose their cool and get involved in a fight.

LOL I just saw what Stern handed out as punishments. Melo got the worst at 15 games suspension. JR Smith and Robinson got 10 games each. Collins got 6 games and Jared Jeffries 4 games. Karl and Nugz got the worst of as I predicted. Isiah gets off even though he has a past for these things and the innuendos. He will likely end up losing his job, but he gets to continue on until the end of season as Dolan said. Unless something else happens.