haywood brown jamison areans hughes and with hayes coming off the bench...that looks pretty good to me ...crawford is a streaky player....marbury is a all star ..tim thomas looks like hes lost...and then u got nzar who isn't consistent
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting McGrady^1:</div><div class="quote_post">haywood brown jamison areans hughes and with hayes coming off the bench...that looks pretty good to me ...crawford is a streaky player....marbury is a all star ..tim thomas looks like hes lost...and then u got nzar who isn't consistent</div> You only named the Knicks weaknesses while naming the Wizards positives. What about the fact that we have Hardaway, Sweetney, and when H2O comes back Crawford on the bench. What about Kurt Thomas. The Wizards are very much less superior to the Knicks.
mrj18 - knicks wizards c- Nazr C- Haywood EVEN PF - Thomas PF-Jeffries MODERATE ADVAN. NYK SF -T. Thomas SF-Jamison SERIOUS ADVAN. WAS SG - Crawford SG -Hughes EVEN PG - Marbury PG- Arenis MODERATE ADVAN FOR NYK ***bench*** ***bench*** sweetney k. Brown EVEN penny hayes SLIGHT ADVAN WAS ariza dixon SLIGHT ADVAN WAS 1) Nazr vs. Haywood - all stats are extremely close...to close to call 2) Thomas vs. Jeffries - Brown would be in here and it might be closer, but with jeffries its a slight NYK advantage. Thomas gets a .3 boards a min and .34 points per minute. Jeffries gets .26 boards per minute and .27 points per game. Jeffries averages an extra offensive board a game despite playing 13 minutes less per game. Jeffries gets more assists per minute than Thomas but less blocks. Steals and FG% are close. 3) 3) T. Thomas vs. Jamison - HAHAHAHA...dont even try. Thomas gets killed in every catagory available. 4) Crawford vs. Hughes - equal matches in minutes, FG%, 3%, hughes grabs more boards. very close in assists, but hughes getting considerable steal advanage. Points about the same..but slight advantage for Hughes. 5) Marbury vs. Arenas - minutes identical. marbury big advantage in FG %. 3 shooting about equal, same for rebounds. marbury with 3 more assists per game. steals, blocks and turnovers about the same. about the same PPG for both. bench 6) sweetney vs. brown - no numbers available for brown...but last years Brown numbers are very close per minute in all catagories 7) penny vs. hayes - penny advantage in FG and 3%, but hayes serious advantage in rebounds, steals and PPG. penny slight advantage in assists 8) ariza vs. dixon - similiar minutes, advantage dixon in FG and 3%. about equal in rebounds. slight advantage for dixon in assists. slight for ariza in steals and turnovers. I didnt include A. Houston cause its kinda looking like he's out for the season, when he's back it might make take away some of WAS "slight advantage" from the 2 bench guy's i mentioned, but not THAT much. besides, his comming back will cause other guys stats to drop. Not sure what the story is with Brown, when he'll be back. Might use Ruffin vs him instead which would be a slight NYK advantage, but nothing to all your mother about. tell me son, after that quick break down of the two teams. You're saying that the Wiz are "very much less superior" than the Knicks???? Looks to me like its close.....but hey...you must be right. What do i know. Keep on enlightening me...i'm learning alot from you
^ and thats just washington, which according to you "isnt even in the same league" as the Knicks. I could do even more damage to your story by doing a comparison between you and other East teams but i dont have the time. Needless to say Phili, Boston, Toronto, and yes, Washington are all matches for you. And Orlando and Cleveland are better. The Knicks, i say again, ARE NOT CLEAR CUT BETTER THAN THESE TEAMS!!!!! take care son
Although the stats might be similar the intangibles have to be takn into consideration such as defense, and other things. The Wizards can not get farther than the Knicks with their team and you know it as well. Also let's not forget that they still are playing without their all star SG Allan Houston.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18 - knicks wizards c- Nazr C- Haywood EVEN PF - Thomas PF-Jeffries MODERATE ADVAN. NYK SF -T. Thomas SF-Jamison SERIOUS ADVAN. WAS SG - Crawford SG -Hughes EVEN PG - Marbury PG- Arenis MODERATE ADVAN FOR NYK ***bench*** ***bench*** sweetney k. Brown EVEN penny hayes SLIGHT ADVAN WAS ariza dixon SLIGHT ADVAN WAS 1) Nazr vs. Haywood - all stats are extremely close...to close to call 2) Thomas vs. Jeffries - Brown would be in here and it might be closer, but with jeffries its a slight NYK advantage. Thomas gets a .3 boards a min and .34 points per minute. Jeffries gets .26 boards per minute and .27 points per game. Jeffries averages an extra offensive board a game despite playing 13 minutes less per game. Jeffries gets more assists per minute than Thomas but less blocks. Steals and FG% are close. 3) 3) T. Thomas vs. Jamison - HAHAHAHA...dont even try. Thomas gets killed in every catagory available. 4) Crawford vs. Hughes - equal matches in minutes, FG%, 3%, hughes grabs more boards. very close in assists, but hughes getting considerable steal advanage. Points about the same..but slight advantage for Hughes. 5) Marbury vs. Arenas - minutes identical. marbury big advantage in FG %. 3 shooting about equal, same for rebounds. marbury with 3 more assists per game. steals, blocks and turnovers about the same. about the same PPG for both. bench 6) sweetney vs. brown - no numbers available for brown...but last years Brown numbers are very close per minute in all catagories 7) penny vs. hayes - penny advantage in FG and 3%, but hayes serious advantage in rebounds, steals and PPG. penny slight advantage in assists 8) ariza vs. dixon - similiar minutes, advantage dixon in FG and 3%. about equal in rebounds. slight advantage for dixon in assists. slight for ariza in steals and turnovers. I didnt include A. Houston cause its kinda looking like he's out for the season, when he's back it might make take away some of WAS "slight advantage" from the 2 bench guy's i mentioned, but not THAT much. besides, his comming back will cause other guys stats to drop. Not sure what the story is with Brown, when he'll be back. Might use Ruffin vs him instead which would be a slight NYK advantage, but nothing to all your mother about. tell me son, after that quick break down of the two teams. You're saying that the Wiz are "very much less superior" than the Knicks???? Looks to me like its close.....but hey...you must be right. What do i know. Keep on enlightening me...i'm learning alot from you</div> That's a very narrowminded way of looking at it. You didnt even take into account how the teams run their offenses or anything like that. Where have you been Allan Houston is coming back in two weeks at the most. More likely next week. You didnt consider any of the intangibles. Not least of which when Houston's on the floor there will be no more double teaming on any of the Knicks. Washington doesnt have an answer for Sweetney unless they double up on him. Crawford might be steaky but him coming off the bench will be huge. We have great rebounders in Kurt Thomas, JYD, and Sweetney. JYD and Kurt Thomas are also great defenders. In case you havent noticed but the Knicks stopped Lebron from taking over Jamison will be annoying but thats it. The Knicks have them beat all over. Barring a miracle game like the one the Raptors had last night the Knicks will beat the Wizards easily.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Although the stats might be similar the intangibles have to be takn into consideration such as defense, and other things. The Wizards can not get farther than the Knicks with their team and you know it as well. Also let's not forget that they still are playing without their all star SG Allan Houston.</div> PLEASE.....please, please, please please please.....if you're trying to tell me why the Knicks are better than ANYONE....dont mention defense. They dont play it, too many of there players have lost thier hustle and dont do the intangibles that you say i forgot to take into consideration. So with that taken care of.......its obvious that you were wrong..and the Knicks are not as superior as you had said. I think the Wiz have as good a chance at succeeding as the Knicks..and i cant think of a reason why that's not so.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">PLEASE.....please, please, please please please.....if you're trying to tell me why the Knicks are better than ANYONE....dont mention defense. They dont play it, too many of there players have lost thier hustle and dont do the intangibles that you say i forgot to take into consideration. So with that taken care of.......its obvious that you were wrong..and the Knicks are not as superior as you had said. I think the Wiz have as good a chance at succeeding as the Knicks..and i cant think of a reason why that's not so.</div> The defense was an example of an intangible whoever the Wizards are holding opponents over 100ppg. That doesn't show much defense.
TRIBUTE TO H20 - i dunno man, i gotta say your wrong. Fine, if Houstons coming back soon, that'll help the Knicks, but it doesnt make them obviously better...it doesnt make them a lock for home court advantage. 8th seed is not crazy. Washington doesnt have a match for Sweetney...i'm not sure thats the case, but even if it is, as promising as Sweetney may look, his 4 boards and 8 points per game arent ground breaking, and any advantage the Knicks will have from a matchup problem wont mean a sure victory, or even a probable. You have no one that can take Jamison defensively. As a matter of fact other than K. Thomas who's a decent big defender you dont have ANYONE that can take ANYONE defensively....JYD?? The guy's gunna get 10 minutes a game and has no offense what so ever. Best not to defend the Knicks by mentioning JYD to a raptor fan, we had him, and you can keep him. As i proved the knicks DO NOT "have them beaten all over". Its very very close all over. the biggest advantage you guys have is K. Thomas over Jeffries but niether are game makers. Marbury over Arenis would be your next biggest advantage and Arenis is a good player...its not a whole different league between the two. I'm still failing to see how you figure you're that much better. I show you stats you say defense and intangables.....well there is no defense and i'm not seeing the intangables?!?? But whatever you guys say...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting McGrady^1:</div><div class="quote_post">lol r me an ddeception the only ones that saw david allen's wife unzip her jacket</div> Saw that too, I was thinking to myself is the camera man deliberately leaving the cam there lol, she was trying to pull her blouse up, but was showing a decent amount of cleavage there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The defense was an example of an intangible whoever the Wizards are holding opponents over 100ppg. That doesn't show much defense.</div> acually they're under 100ppg now since toronto. But still....even if they are at 100, you have to know that the knicks are allowing 96.3. Its better...but not THAT much better. Also take into account that the Wiz are a faster paced team...more shots are taken in a game. A much more reliable way of showing defense would be the opponents FG%..which for the Wiz is .457% and the Knicks are dominating the NBA at .479%. In your own words "that doesnt show much defence" The Wiz also manage to score 100 ppg while the Knicks are getting 94ppg. The wiz are only being outscored by their opponents by .1 ppg while the Knicks are getting beaten by 1.7ppg. I still am not seeing how they are inferior to your precious knicks??????????
ok...well very good game by the raptors...been long since they scored this much and had a good margin over the opponent. vince has seemed to find his spark again, with 22 points on 6/13 shooting, with a few rebounds and assists to boot. i don't really think carter can get back to the 2001 form, but im confident he will soon get back to superstar level. anyway, the bench play suprising well today, milt "no offense" palacio was particularly suprising, and matt boner was solid as usual. seriously i see matt boner as a minor steal. no one expected to make an impact, just be a body on defence, get his 6 fouls, hit some jumpers, but he has shown a lot of hustle and determination, and while unspectacular, has proven consistent. hope u rap fans can relive the glory days of 2000/2001, even though im not a supporter of the raps, wish u guys the best in the season
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Although the stats might be similar the intangibles have to be takn into consideration such as defense, and other things. The Wizards can not get farther than the Knicks with their team and you know it as well. Also let's not forget that they still are playing without their all star SG Allan Houston.</div> Is H20 still considered an All-Star? He'd definately help the offense, but that's all he'll help, but is he going to be starting upon getting back to full game shape of will Craford retain the starting job? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4) Crawford vs. Hughes - equal matches in minutes, FG%, 3%, hughes grabs more boards. very close in assists, but hughes getting considerable steal advanage. Points about the same..but slight advantage for Hughes. 5) Marbury vs. Arenas - minutes identical. marbury big advantage in FG %. 3 shooting about equal, same for rebounds. marbury with 3 more assists per game. steals, blocks and turnovers about the same. about the same PPG for both. </div> Hughes is also a good defender which is something Crawford is not, also with Arenas vs Marbury, Arenas is a better shooter, he's actually a really good shooter just not really noticed for it, he was a real good shooter in College too. Marbury is nice when he's hot, but so is Arenas, but Marbury has a little advantage as he's an expreienced player/PG, and Arenas is still working hismelf as a PG.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">TRIBUTE TO H20 - i dunno man, i gotta say your wrong. Fine, if Houstons coming back soon, that'll help the Knicks, but it doesnt make them obviously better...it doesnt make them a lock for home court advantage. 8th seed is not crazy. Washington doesnt have a match for Sweetney...i'm not sure thats the case, but even if it is, as promising as Sweetney may look, his 4 boards and 8 points per game arent ground breaking, and any advantage the Knicks will have from a matchup problem wont mean a sure victory, or even a probable. You have no one that can take Jamison defensively. As a matter of fact other than K. Thomas who's a decent big defender you dont have ANYONE that can take ANYONE defensively....JYD?? The guy's gunna get 10 minutes a game and has no offense what so ever. Best not to defend the Knicks by mentioning JYD to a raptor fan, we had him, and you can keep him. As i proved the knicks DO NOT "have them beaten all over". Its very very close all over. the biggest advantage you guys have is K. Thomas over Jeffries but niether are game makers. Marbury over Arenis would be your next biggest advantage and Arenis is a good player...its not a whole different league between the two. I'm still failing to see how you figure you're that much better. I show you stats you say defense and intangables.....well there is no defense and i'm not seeing the intangables?!?? But whatever you guys say...</div> I have to disagree. Allan Houston is arguably the best shooter in the league. For a team that has no other real outside threat that is huge. The intangibles I'm referring to are Houston's ability to spread the floor. Marbury can take anyone of those guys off the dribble and get into the paint. If teams double team Marbury Houston will get a wide open three and he doesnt miss when he's wide open. You didnt take into account Sweetney shoots nearly 60% from the field. The reason why he doesnt do alot better is because teams double up on him now. And again that will all stop when Houston comes back. We contained Lebron James a few days ago and you have the nerve to say Jamison?? At the most he'll be a nuisance to the Knicks. Kurt Thomas a decent big defender?? That's an understatement. He made Tim Duncan look mortal last time we played him. And if you dont think JYD is a good defender then you're just out of touch with reality. You also forgot to mention what a great rebounder he is but clearly youre just ignoring the facts. Then there's the pick and roll which most teams have a hard time to defend against. And Crawford coming off the bench...and Penny and Ariza. When you put it all together then you can see how the Knicks are clearly better. Which is why its inconcievable to even think the Knicks wont win their division. Stat's dont cover everything. The game also boils down to team match ups. I hope now you've been enlightened. But if you havent then you can tell me why not and I'll be glad to help you.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I have to disagree. Allan Houston is arguably the best shooter in the league. For a team that has no other real outside threat that is huge. The intangibles I'm referring to are Houston's ability to spread the floor. Marbury can take anyone of those guys off the dribble and get into the paint. If teams double team Marbury Houston will get a wide open three and he doesnt miss when he's wide open. You didnt take into account Sweetney shoots nearly 60% from the field. The reason why he doesnt do alot better is because teams double up on him now. And again that will all stop when Houston comes back. We contained Lebron James a few days ago and you have the nerve to say Jamison?? At the most he'll be a nuisance to the Knicks. Kurt Thomas a decent big defender?? That's an understatement. He made Tim Duncan look mortal last time we played him. And if you dont think JYD is a good defender then you're just out of touch with reality. You also forgot to mention what a great rebounder he is but clearly youre just ignoring the facts. Then there's the pick and roll which most teams have a hard time to defend against. And Crawford coming off the bench...and Penny and Ariza. When you put it all together then you can see how the Knicks are clearly better. Which is why its inconcievable to even think the Knicks wont win their division. Stat's dont cover everything. The game also boils down to team match ups. I hope now you've been enlightened. But if you havent then you can tell me why not and I'll be glad to help you.</div> Rebuttle: 1)Allan Houston is a great shooter...not the best..but good. Peja and Ray own him. 2)Ray can spread the floor..which is good for NYK....agreed 3)Sweetney doesnt shoot 60%...he shoots 52%. Most bigs shoot high %. The Wiz have two players shooting 47%. So its good but not UNBELIEVABLE like you make it sound. The Raps..not exactly i great shooting team have two guys with the same or better FG%'s. both bigs....so i'm not so sure you're point is that useful in proving to me why the Knicks are so great. 4)Containing Lebron James...he very very very nearly got a triple-double!!! he had a bad shooting night.....even jordan had them...but he still made you guys pay. He was missing wide open shots...dont take credit for it...like your buddy said. its only one game. You cant take out Jamison...i have the nerve to say it...you cant take out James...they can take themselves out. I've never heard Kurt Thomas mentioned has one of the premier defenders in the league.....how many defensive nominations does he have? i'd guess none. He's a decent defender. Not a sure thing. 5)JYD is a decent defender as well...cause he hussles but he's no Artest...he's not Bowen or even a Mo Pete. Go ahead and put him on for serious playing time, in order to have his defensive abilities. He gives no offense what so ever.....so it helps and hurts you. 6)All teams have hard time with pick and rolls.....all teams....all it takes is a guy that's big and can set a decent screan and a guy that can penetrate and shoot. Most teams use it..some better than others. I dont think the Knicks invented it..i dont think the Knicks matered it..and i dont think they're the best in the East at it. 7) Crawford, Ariza, Penny comming off the bench. Ya thas not bad. Washington has Hayes, Dixon and K. Brown off the bench...which isnt bad either. I'm aware that stats dont cover everything, but they cover some things. And statistically i'm right...there isnt a major difference between the two....team record so far say i'm right...there isnt a huge difference between the two. So the only leg you can stand on are "intangibles (like there pourus defense) and their matchup advantage. While i see some merit to your offensive matchup advantages....DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW BAD YOUR DEFENSIVE MATCHUPS ARE. and dont start talking about JYD again, last time i checked you cant sub guys in after every possession. You might be able to break a team down on offense (not shown by the 94ppg average or the middle of the pack tame 43% shooting average)...but you CANT stop a team on defence. You give offense all the glory, but defense wins the game. And so far you're the worst team in the league in that catagory its "inconceivable" that they wont win their division...hey whatever you say. see you in the 7th or 8th seed spot come spring. :thumbsup: and i have to disagree...i dont feel enlightened by you, i still dont see how the Knicks are sooooo much better and i think i've shown why i feel their not.
Kwame Brown isn't coming off the bench, he's going to be a starter when he get's healthy, and Jared Jefferies will be coming off the bench. Also Kurt Thomas is actually a good defender at the PF spot, and for the Wizards, don't forget Steve Blake, when he gets to full playing shape he should take Dixon's minutes as he's more of a PG, and also a very good defender.
With Steve Blake think Earl Watson of Memphis with a better outside shot, but less athletic, also a big part of Washington that wasn't mentioned is Etan Thomas, he's a pretty good PF/C, an okay defender, but he's smaller than centers, and not as quick as PF's, a good shot blocker, brings energy and is a good rebounder. One of the reason's the Wizards defense has been weak is because of the lack of Kwame who's a very good defender, and also Haywood for a while, Etan, and Blake on the perimeter. With all those guys back, the defense should improve a lot. Jamison and Ruffin couldn't do it inside when they were playing there, and Samaki Walker is just garbage to tell the truth.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Rebuttle: 1)Allan Houston is a great shooter...not the best..but good. Peja and Ray own him. 2)Ray can spread the floor..which is good for NYK....agreed 3)Sweetney doesnt shoot 60%...he shoots 52%. Most bigs shoot high %. The Wiz have two players shooting 47%. So its good but not UNBELIEVABLE like you make it sound. The Raps..not exactly i great shooting team have two guys with the same or better FG%'s. both bigs....so i'm not so sure you're point is that useful in proving to me why the Knicks are so great. 4)Containing Lebron James...he very very very nearly got a triple-double!!! he had a bad shooting night.....even jordan had them...but he still made you guys pay. He was missing wide open shots...dont take credit for it...like your buddy said. its only one game. You cant take out Jamison...i have the nerve to say it...you cant take out James...they can take themselves out. I've never heard Kurt Thomas mentioned has one of the premier defenders in the league.....how many defensive nominations does he have? i'd guess none. He's a decent defender. Not a sure thing. 5)JYD is a decent defender as well...cause he hussles but he's no Artest...he's not Bowen or even a Mo Pete. Go ahead and put him on for serious playing time, in order to have his defensive abilities. He gives no offense what so ever.....so it helps and hurts you. 6)All teams have hard time with pick and rolls.....all teams....all it takes is a guy that's big and can set a decent screan and a guy that can penetrate and shoot. Most teams use it..some better than others. I dont think the Knicks invented it..i dont think the Knicks matered it..and i dont think they're the best in the East at it. 7) Crawford, Ariza, Penny comming off the bench. Ya thas not bad. Washington has Hayes, Dixon and K. Brown off the bench...which isnt bad either. I'm aware that stats dont cover everything, but they cover some things. And statistically i'm right...there isnt a major difference between the two....team record so far say i'm right...there isnt a huge difference between the two. So the only leg you can stand on are "intangibles (like there pourus defense) and their matchup advantage. While i see some merit to your offensive matchup advantages....DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW BAD YOUR DEFENSIVE MATCHUPS ARE. and dont start talking about JYD again, last time i checked you cant sub guys in after every possession. You might be able to break a team down on offense (not shown by the 94ppg average or the middle of the pack tame 43% shooting average)...but you CANT stop a team on defence. You give offense all the glory, but defense wins the game. And so far you're the worst team in the league in that catagory its "inconceivable" that they wont win their division...hey whatever you say. see you in the 7th or 8th seed spot come spring. :thumbsup: and i have to disagree...i dont feel enlightened by you, i still dont see how the Knicks are sooooo much better and i think i've shown why i feel their not.</div> Never said "sooooo much better". I just said clearly better. There's a slight difference. 1) I dont know where you've been but Ray Allen for a couple of years now has been shooting under 40%. So he's not even in the upper echelon of three point shooters. He should be but the numbers say he's not. As for Peja I believe they shot the same percentage(a whooping 43%). Houston can create his own shot and oh yeah Houston was playing hurt he'll be 100% this time around. 2) So you agree that Marbury, Crawford, Sweetney will be able to play one on one without being double teamed which at the moment is the only way they can be contained. 3) The numbers changed sorry. While alot of bigs do shoot a high percentage not alot do it like Sweetney. He posts up and backs his man down if he can and if he cant(which is a rare case) he has a fadeaway jumper. Most of the bigs that shoot that high of a percentage dont do that. Afterall Curry who everyone seems to want doesnt shoot at a high percentage. Remember teams have had to double team Sweetney but with Houston that wont happen. 4) Yes he very nearly got a triple double but we dont have to worry about Jamison doing that. He's a good player and all but your overrating his abilities. He'll get his points and rebounds and all but he's not taking over and winning the game for his team. Just because you havent heard Kurt Thomas isnt a great defender doesnt mean he's not a great defender. He's done a great job so far. If you dont know that you really havent been watching any Knicks games. 5) JYD is a better than average defender. What's wrong with hustling? He's not going to lock down the best powerforwards but he will make things harder for them. We really dont have to put him on alot of playing time. We have a very efficient rotation involving Nazr, Kurt Thomas, Sweetney and JYD. We get our production from the perimeter, and we'll get more of it when Houston returns, all JYD has to do is rebound and do the dirty work and he's very good at that. 6) Well the Knicks pick and roll with Kurt Thomas is very effective obviously. Anyone who watches a Knicks game knows this. It's a staple of our offense. 7) We also have Sweetney, Brewer(nice back up pointguard) and JYD. I like the Knicks bench more than the Wizards because the Knicks bench compliments the starting line up better than the Wizards bench compliments the Wizards starting line up. Well tell me how bad the defensive matches are. I doubt their as bad as you make it sound. And they certainly dont outweigh the Knicks advantage. We dont have to sub at every posession. We can keep up the same pace no matter who is in the game. Change our look. Stuff like that. Those offensive stats will change, once again, when Houston comes back. We arent the first team that's played a more offensive orientated game. The Kings play it and the old Mavericks(pre Antoine Walker)played it and it has worked pretty well for them. Defense is important of course. But a team can make up for it with their offense so long as they play "the right way". I think that'll be enough to convince you. Feel enlightened now? Let me know if you need more light. By the way who's your favorite to win the Atlantic?
I knew that that you would do a better job in convincing then I can do. I think they're enlightened now.
who saw carter's windmill i thought it was really hot because he was able to do it so close to the basket
