<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">I guess u didn't see the +/- per 48 stat they put up for shaq during the game... +8 when shaq is on the floor, -20 something when he's not... i would say kobe needs shaq more than shaq needs kobe. Kobe might be able to carry the team down the stretch, but shaq puts them in position to win games. Look when the piston's took the lead last night (when shaq was on the bench). Look when the lakers came back (when shaq came in w/ about 3:30 left to play).</div> I completely agree with you Jiggax23. The reason I think Kobe is able to dominate games at times ( not to take away at all at Kobes's skills) is because i believe he brings a sort of chaos to game with his unpredictability at times. I believe there is so much focus on shaq at times that Kobe is granted opportunities to force the issue and score big shots when the Lakes need Big shots. All in all I believe the Lakes are Shaq's team and Kobe Bryant, Fish, Malone, Payton and the rest of the guys on the lakers rosters are all role players on the lakers team. (I 'm not saying that these guys aren't superstars on any other team but on the Lakers roster i believe they are all role players under Shaq.) I believe these guys are there to take defensive pressure off of shaq, so that he can have oppurtunities to do his work in the post without facing team defense that consist of throwing four guys at the Diesal at a time. I just won't be able to say Kobe is on Jordans level until I see kobe winning rings on a team where the roster does not include The Diesal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post">I believe there is so much focus on shaq at times that Kobe is granted opportunities to force the issue and score big shots when the Lakes need Big shots.</div> Not in the 4th quarter, opposing teams would prefer to foul Shaq down the stretch than see Kobe make and create shots for others. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post">All in all I believe the Lakes are Shaq's team and Kobe Bryant, Fish, Malone, Payton and the rest of the guys on the lakers rosters are all role players on the lakers team. (I 'm not saying that these guys aren't superstars on any other team but on the Lakers roster i believe they are all role players under Shaq.) I believe these guys are there to take defensive pressure off of shaq, so that he can have oppurtunities to do his work in the post without facing team defense that consist of throwing four guys at the Diesal at a time.</div> Kobe a role player? Show me a playoff game where Kobe played bad and the Lakers still won, there's plenty that Shaq played bad and the Lakers still won. Don't exagerate, nobody's throwing 4 guys at Shaq, the Pistons don't even double team him... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post">I just won't be able to say Kobe is on Jordans level until I see kobe winning rings on a team where the roster does not include The Diesal.</div> Exactly my point!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ice ice BIBBY:</div><div class="quote_post">but lets just get something straight NO ONE will even be in a class with Michael Jeffrey Jordan...EVER!</div> <font size="3">EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font> jordan created a whole different level that no player will be able to reach. everyone will be looked down upon from mj. there will always be comparisons b/c it helps to market the league, the player and that team. thats what is going on with lebron being the so called 'next mj'. no matter what he, kobe or anyone else does, doesnt matter how many scoring titles/mvp's or titles that person wins. nobody can reach the level mj has created.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is a great player, and I feel he gets the respect he deserves... As far as that other stuff you guys are arguing, the lakers won .700+ of their games without Shaq this season....but u know what? This is the playoffs now, Kobe doesn't just need Shaq, he needs Shaq + another role player. Shaq needs Kobe + another role player. Just Shaq & Kobe is no longer enough, let alone just Kobe (or Shaq).</div> It's more like: If either player was out here is what the other would need: Shaq needs two role players to step up Kobe needs one to step up why, you ask? Kobe is a Guard who can create, distribute, play agressive D, and juggle keeping the coach happy all the while. Shaq can't create very much, gets overly aggressive on Offense and Defense epsecially when mad, and doesn't care if he keeps the coach happy. If Kobe is playing w/out Shaq but has Karl with him, I say they have a much better chance than Shaq and GP or Malone or any other Laker... You have already seen that the Lakers won .700+ games w/out Shaq! And you can also see that they struggled when Kobe injured his shoulder... I think Kobe clearly has the edge now... Maybe not in '01, but now he does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Not in the 4th quarter, opposing teams would prefer to foul Shaq down the stretch than see Kobe make and create shots for others. Kobe a role player? Show me a playoff game where Kobe played bad and the Lakers still won, there's plenty that Shaq played bad and the Lakers still won. Don't exagerate, nobody's throwing 4 guys at Shaq, the Pistons don't even double team him... Exactly my point!</div> Great points Rocket
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Not in the 4th quarter, opposing teams would prefer to foul Shaq down the stretch than see Kobe make and create shots for others. Kobe a role player? Show me a playoff game where Kobe played bad and the Lakers still won, there's plenty that Shaq played bad and the Lakers still won. Don't exagerate, nobody's throwing 4 guys at Shaq, the Pistons don't even double team him... Exactly my point!</div>Also, another point... Someone may try to counter and say, well Ben Wallace is guarding him... That's why they don't double, but no... That just proves that Shaq isn't the D's focus anymore... Kobe gets doulbed and even tripled almost every play of every game... He may only be a guard, but he's a dominant one! He is a force to reckon with and you all just have to learn to accept that!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SuperMan:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, another point... Someone may try to counter and say, well Ben Wallace is guarding him... That's why they don't double, but no... That just proves that Shaq isn't the D's focus anymore... Kobe gets doulbed and even tripled almost every play of every game... He may only be a guard, but he's a dominant one! He is a force to reckon with and you all just have to learn to accept that!!</div> Another great point. I got to give Kobe his props. He is a force. But at this time I like T a littl bit more. I guess i'll just have to wait until Kobes on a team without shaq to truly see what a force he really is.
[quote name='RocketLaunch'] Kobe a role player? Show me a playoff game where Kobe played bad and the Lakers still won, there's plenty that Shaq played bad and the Lakers still won. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> you must not have watched the minnesota series... the only 2 games wolves won were the 2 games shaq did not play well... Kobe was able to play great games both times, but was not enough to carry the team. And theres no doubt that kobe is able to excel because shaq opens up so much for him... Kobe may get double teamed when he has the ball, but no one in the league not named shaquille gets doubled w/out the ball... you may say the pistons dont double shaq, thats true... but they don't double kobe either. that's just the way pistons play defense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">cassell or bibby and a solid 2 guard like michael redd playing along side shaq would be much better than kobe and fisher. like i said, cassell and bibby are not as talented as kobe, but down the stretch... i think the duo of cassell and redd would win more games than kobe and fisher. Without shaq, lakers would probably be sitting at home watching right now... Minnesota and SA had answers for kobe... they didn't have answers for shaq</div> Wow you really believe that? As much as I like Redd I don't think that duo is better than Kobe and Fisher. Although Fisher has dipped a little in recent years, Kobe and Fish are still much better defenders than Cassell and Redd. You can't just look at it from a offensive standpoint, and if you look at the defense Kobe and Fisher dominate Sam and Redd. They are also very good clutch players, and although you could say the same about Cassell, Kobe's on a whole other level. I'm not trying to argue how good Kobe is unlike the others who are posting, but I would never take another guard combo over Kobe. No matter who you think is the best player in the league I think we can all agree Kobe is the best guard, and that means more than two very good role players IMO.
Kobe is well respected and him leaving Lakers will create a really deep cut... I don't think they will stand any chance if they don't draft a REALLY good player. Kobe is the guy that the game depends on in the end, without him, the lakers would be loosers..
Yeah he does get respect from them, but again, there's always that line that he has to do it without Shaq, that line never fails to rear itself into every Bryant conversation. He doesn't get all of the respect, Shaq gets most of it 95% of the time, Kobe is basically Scottie Pippen in the eyes of most, when he's really the Jordan of the Lakers. That's why I see no problem with Kobe wanting to leave the Lakers when his situation is like that, he deserves better, If Kobe would leave a good situation like he has with the Lakers just to be the main man and have all eyes on him. Then he doesn't deserve respect
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">you must not have watched the minnesota series... the only 2 games wolves won were the 2 games shaq did not play well... Kobe was able to play great games both times, but was not enough to carry the team. And theres no doubt that kobe is able to excel because shaq opens up so much for him... Kobe may get double teamed when he has the ball, but no one in the league not named shaquille gets doubled w/out the ball... you may say the pistons dont double shaq, thats true... but they don't double kobe either. that's just the way pistons play defense.</div> That's true, but on the flip side to that Shaq's best game against Houston was the one they lost... Bryant could still score 40 if Shaq wasn't opening up anything for him, I don't see how he helps him especially in the 4th quarters when teams would more than likely prefer to see Shaq get the ball to keep it out of Bryant's hands... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">cassell or bibby and a solid 2 guard like michael redd playing along side shaq would be much better than kobe and fisher. like i said, cassell and bibby are not as talented as kobe, but down the stretch... i think the duo of cassell and redd would win more games than kobe and fisher.</div> I gotta STRONGLY disagree with that, offensively Bryant by himself is better, but where a Bryant/Fisher duo distances themselves from Cassell or Bibby/Redd duo is on defense... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Without shaq, lakers would probably be sitting at home watching right now... Minnesota and SA had answers for kobe... they didn't have answers for shaq</div> Without Bryant they'd be sitting at home too... Wolves contained him I guess, but the Spurs were beat because they couldn't contain Bryant, Bowen is as much a Kobe stopper as Ruben Patterson was, Teyshaun Prince does a better job...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting navyballer18:</div><div class="quote_post"> If Kobe would leave a good situation like he has with the Lakers just to be the main man and have all eyes on him. Then he doesn't deserve respect</div> It depends on the kind of person you are, if you're ok with doing all the work while someone else takes the credit than you would think Bryant should stay, if you could imagine yourself getting tired of working extremely hard while the guy taking all the credit comes in over weight year after year causing him to take month long vacations every season, than you would think Bryant has a reason to feel underappreciated.
He already gets as much as he deserves. Sure he's been under enormous pressure due to the circumstances he's in but then again, he's still such a fan favorite amongst his fans and even the NBA and it's staff itself. Everyone knows how good he is, he's neither overrated or underrated. It might've been lucky or not, for remember there's only two things that can happen, it either goes in or it doesn't. He just so happened to be his clutch self. Give him credit but he's no God.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe a role player? Show me a playoff game where Kobe played bad and the Lakers still won, there's plenty that Shaq played bad and the Lakers still won. Don't exagerate, nobody's throwing 4 guys at Shaq, the Pistons don't even double team him...</div>BTW when i made the statement about teams throwing four guys at shaq. I was not neccersarily/ or even at all talking strictly commenting of the pistons Defense. I did not mean to exaggerate the fact of teams throwing four guys at the Diesal. I was only stating the fact of teams "help defense" that consist of guys that wait for the diesal to make his move and then they collaspe on him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Originally Posted by jiggax23 you must not have watched the minnesota series... the only 2 games wolves won were the 2 games shaq did not play well... Kobe was able to play great games both times, but was not enough to carry the team. And theres no doubt that kobe is able to excel because shaq opens up so much for him... Kobe may get double teamed when he has the ball, but no one in the league not named shaquille gets doubled w/out the ball... you may say the pistons dont double shaq, thats true... but they don't double kobe either. that's just the way pistons play defense. </div>Jigga x23 stated exactly what i was trying to explain earlier in my previous post about the type of defnses that play on the diesal. Jigga x23 also explained in this same post why the pistons couldn't even be considered in that group of team that posses the defensive schemes that i was discussing earlier. Mainly because the pistons have their own style of defense that differs dramtically from the rest of the teams in the L. But an exmalple of one of the teams that would be consderd in that group of teams that play that " four man" defensive scheme on the Diesal would be the Spurs. Also what other teams draw up specific defensive schemes for slowing down Kobe as they draw up defensive schemes to slow down the Diesal .......................................? The_Treelest@JBB
When Kobe's skills come into debate, there's always gonna be statements like "cause he got Shaq," people obviously hear it every single time that by now, it may sound just plain ignorant but still, it's the truth. But that doesn't take away the fact that he's still one of the most amazing player to ever grace the court... I love that dude for drillin that 3 though, it was an amazing shot. All I know is, for these kind of arguments to stop, Kobe needs to lead the team on his own... it'd be nice to see how it turns out, is he gonna shut all the critics up, or just prove their facts?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow you really believe that? As much as I like Redd I don't think that duo is better than Kobe and Fisher. Although Fisher has dipped a little in recent years, Kobe and Fish are still much better defenders than Cassell and Redd. You can't just look at it from a offensive standpoint, and if you look at the defense Kobe and Fisher dominate Sam and Redd. They are also very good clutch players, and although you could say the same about Cassell, Kobe's on a whole other level. I'm not trying to argue how good Kobe is unlike the others who are posting, but I would never take another guard combo over Kobe. No matter who you think is the best player in the league I think we can all agree Kobe is the best guard, and that means more than two very good role players IMO.</div> yes, that is totally true in that regard... what i should have said was down the stretch late in the game, rather than the whole 4th quarter... redd is actually a very solid and good defender... not the defender kobe is, but redd is a lot better, defensively and offensively, than fisher... but yea, cassell is quite a liability on defense, but he is much more clutch than fisher, and can do things down the stretch fisher can't do, like create his own baskets and make them (outside of the .4 fling, fisher hasnt shown he can do much by himself down the stretch, sure he can hit the open J when D's collapse on kobe or shaq, but so can hoiberg). But i think i would still take cassell/redd regardless of the weaker defensive game they bring, because sam is WAY better than fisher overall, and Kobe's talent and skill level over Redd doesn't make up for that difference. Defensively, the Kobe/Fisher does have an advantage. Offensively, i'd say cassell/redd do, but not as big as the margin Kobe/Fisher do defensively. But the intangibles, such as leadership, and ability create shots and make big shots down the stretch go cassell/redd IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">That's true, but on the flip side to that Shaq's best game against Houston was the one they lost... Bryant could still score 40 if Shaq wasn't opening up anything for him, I don't see how he helps him especially in the 4th quarters when teams would more than likely prefer to see Shaq get the ball to keep it out of Bryant's hands...</div> people don't foul shaq right away as the 4th quarter begins, they do it when the game is on the line LATE in the 4th... shaq dominates for first 42-45 minutes a game, its late in games where the ball is usually kept out of his hands. And yes, kobe could score 40 w/out shaq opening it up for him, but it might take him 49 shots to get 42 points in a losing effort w/out shaq like was the case last year versus boston. Shaq best game versus houston might have been in a losing effort, but when it all comes down to it, he was the one who won the SA series when he decided to show up and play, Kobe showed up all series, but that wasn't enough the first two games. And game 5 was won by minnesota cause shaq was in foul trouble.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Magic Johnson:</div><div class="quote_post">He already gets as much as he deserves. Sure he's been under enormous pressure due to the circumstances he's in but then again, he's still such a fan favorite amongst his fans and even the NBA and it's staff itself. Everyone knows how good he is, he's neither overrated or underrated. It might've been lucky or not, for remember there's only two things that can happen, it either goes in or it doesn't. He just so happened to be his clutch self. Give him credit but he's no God.</div> This has nothing to do with that shot or this season, the only time Shaq ever deserved more credit than Bryant was on their 1st championship, which coincided with Shaq's lone MVP award. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting IKeepsItTreel:</div><div class="quote_post"> Jigga x23 stated exactly what i was trying to explain earlier in my previous post about the type of defnses that play on the diesal. Jigga x23 also explained in this same post why the pistons couldn't even be considered in that group of team that posses the defensive schemes that i was discussing earlier. Mainly because the pistons have their own style of defense that differs dramtically from the rest of the teams in the L. But an exmalple of one of the teams that would be consderd in that group of teams that play that " four man" defensive scheme on the Diesal would be the Spurs. Also what other teams draw up specific defensive schemes for slowing down Kobe as they draw up defensive schemes to slow down the Diesal .......................................? The_Treelest@JBB</div> The Pistons are trying to bait the Lakers into trying to let Shaq win the game for them, the games the Pistons will win are the games Shaq does great in but Bryant doesn't, because the Lakers would of fell for that trap, basically Shaq won't beat you, Bryant will. Nodoby quadruple teams Shaq, maybe an occasional triple team, a lot of double teaming, you won't see much of that in the last 5 minutes of close games though. I have no idea who draws up those schemes for Shaq or Bryant... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Skip:</div><div class="quote_post">...All I know is, for these kind of arguments to stop, Kobe needs to lead the team on his own... it'd be nice to see how it turns out, is he gonna shut all the critics up, or just prove their facts?</div> Sad but true... With the right team/coach he will shut all the critics up... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">But i think i would still take cassell/redd regardless of the weaker defensive game they bring, because sam is WAY better than fisher overall, and Kobe's talent and skill level over Redd doesn't make up for that difference. Defensively, the Kobe/Fisher does have an advantage. Offensively, i'd say cassell/redd do, but not as big as the margin Kobe/Fisher do defensively. But the intangibles, such as leadership, and ability create shots and make big shots down the stretch go cassell/redd IMO. people don't foul shaq right away as the 4th quarter begins, they do it when the game is on the line LATE in the 4th... shaq dominates for first 42-45 minutes a game, its late in games where the ball is usually kept out of his hands. And yes, kobe could score 40 w/out shaq opening it up for him, but it might take him 49 shots to get 42 points in a losing effort w/out shaq like was the case last year versus boston. Shaq best game versus houston might have been in a losing effort, but when it all comes down to it, he was the one who won the SA series when he decided to show up and play, Kobe showed up all series, but that wasn't enough the first two games. And game 5 was won by minnesota cause shaq was in foul trouble.</div> Cassell is a lot better than Fisher but the difference of Bryant and Redd is A LOT bigger, the only guy who is really close to Bryant is Iverson, Redd is barely an average passer/ball handler. Redd can create his own shots? I'd like to see the % of his baskets that were assisted, I'm pretty sure it'd be pretty high... So the guy that can't be counted on during the last 3-5 minutes of a game is the reason his teams win? Or he could get 56 on 34 like he did against the Grizzlies a couple of years ago... Or the 52 against the Rockets last season... Well Bryant wasn't going to beat the defending champions by himself, Shaq's best scoring game was game 2 though. Shaq played 42 minutes in Game 5, foul trouble is what they're giving Rasheed against the Lakers...
I think Kobe needs more respect when it comes to clutch play. I mean, he is just incredible. We're seeing history written before our own eyes and yet we take it for granted.
